My Gripes with STID!

[Nerys Myk]

It is only through daily Sadhana, doing path, living together as community, refraining from alcohol and drugs, singing Gurbani Kirtan, chanting God's name, and living in God-given form, that a Sikh becomes a Sikh. To discuss who's a Sikh and who's not a Sikh beyond this is meaningless.

 

[BigJake]

Trekists of course.

I myself am a Trekkoidean. We are few but mighty.

Or at least loud.

EDIT: Re: that lovely Gurutej Singh quote:

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Guess that's settled, then. There are no rich people in Christian countries.

What a religion says about itself in scripture and how it defines itself in practice have always been different things. Sikhism is not an exception. (The Gurus, for example were, anti-caste. But theoretically "equal" Sikh caste systems exist.)

And if we're going to go to WikiPedia as an authority, it's worth noting that the WikiPedia page on the Sikh diaspora correctly, AFAICS, state:

Sikhism is (de facto) an ethnic religion but welcomes converts, the Punjab region being the historic homeland of Sikhism.

Not that different in practice from Judaism, which follows a similar profile. Hence the dispute in the link I provided above.

The existence of ethnic Sikhs and Sikhism as an "ethnic" religion is not theoretical. Typing the words "Sikh ethnicity" is not outre or obviously wrong. Making pronouncements that Sikhism is not an ethnicity is at variance with observable fact and obviously wrong -- at least as regards at least some Sikhs -- and moreover vastly oversimplifies a very complex question for the apparent sake of hair-splitting. That's why I said, and said again, and will say one more time: can we not? It's unnecessary, it's annoying, and it's ignorant.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Trekists of course.

I myself am a Trekkoidean. We are few but mighty.

Or at least loud.

Splitter

 

[CorporalCaptain]

He doesn't in any way resemble a Sikh in "Space Seed," regardless of what McGivers suggested as a likelihood. She was a really bad historian;

Eh, that's on the lazy writers who should have known better, but who maybe didn't even believe the audience would notice or care.

The writers/showrunners threw McGivers under the bus with the bad historian stuff, by making her be attracted to an abuser, by preferring an object of history to her Starfleet duties.

Anyway, assuming all these traits are reflective of an actual character in-universe, it's a wonder she was assigned to the Enterprise in the first place. A ship with people like that on board is the sorta ship where you'd expect Scotty to be dealing drugs.

 

[BigJake]

^ I should send you my fanfic about the speakeasy Scotty was running on the side. It all fits.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He doesn't in any way resemble a Sikh in "Space Seed," regardless of what McGivers suggested as a likelihood. She was a really bad historian;

Eh, that's on the lazy writers who should have known better, but who maybe didn't even believe the audience would notice or care.

The writers/showrunners threw McGivers under the bus with the bad historian stuff, by making her be attracted to an abuser, by preferring an object of history to her Starfleet duties.

Anyway, assuming all these traits are reflective of an actual character in-universe, it's a wonder she was assigned to the Enterprise in the first place. A ship with people like that on board is the sorta ship where you'd expect Scotty to be dealing drugs.

Kirk pissed off the wrong admiral is my guess.

 

[fireproof78]

He doesn't in any way resemble a Sikh in "Space Seed," regardless of what McGivers suggested as a likelihood. She was a really bad historian;

Eh, that's on the lazy writers who should have known better, but who maybe didn't even believe the audience would notice or care.

The writers/showrunners threw McGivers under the bus with the bad historian stuff, by making her be attracted to an abuser, by preferring an object of history to her Starfleet duties.

Anyway, assuming all these traits are reflective of an actual character in-universe, it's a wonder she was assigned to the Enterprise in the first place. A ship with people like that on board is the sorta ship where you'd expect Scotty to be dealing drugs.

Kirk pissed off the wrong admiral is my guess.

Admiral Komack sent her, right before he ordered Kirk to guard Station k-7. He is a particularly ornery guy.

Also, if you want to read about a distillery on ship, check on David Gerrold's Star Wolf series about one being in the void in a starship, and the moonshine concocted by the Engineering team. Would put even Scotty down, I think

As for McGivers, it is such a dumb, throwaway line, that I honestly would like to believe that Khan let her continue on that fantasy, if only to keep her under his sway.

As for his ethnic origin, whys is it so difficult to imagine S31 surgically altering him to prevent recognition? I mean, that is part of almost every spy novel out there, in some way, shape or form (mask, face removal, etc.), so why not S31?

 

[BigJake]

As for his ethnic origin, whys is it so difficult to imagine S31 surgically altering him to prevent recognition?

The racebending question is more about this-world issues (about which actors get which parts) than about whether we can fanwank a justification. Because of course we can, virtually without effort.

 

[M'Sharak]

...

As for his ethnic origin, whys is it so difficult to imagine S31 surgically altering him to prevent recognition? I mean, that is part of almost every spy novel out there, in some way, shape or form (mask, face removal, etc.), so why not S31?

I changed my visage, so many times now,
I don't know what I look like!
​

 

[Nerys Myk]

As for his ethnic origin, whys is it so difficult to imagine S31 surgically altering him to prevent recognition? I mean, that is part of almost every spy novel out there, in some way, shape or form (mask, face removal, etc.), so why not S31?

Its a big part of Star Trek, too. From Kirk getting pointed ears to Janeway getting her Klingon on.

 

[fireproof78]

As for his ethnic origin, whys is it so difficult to imagine S31 surgically altering him to prevent recognition?

The racebending question is more about this-world issues (about which actors get which parts) than about whether we can fanwank a justification. Because of course we can, virtually without effort.

Eh, it seems to go both ways. I get the real-world issues involved in Cumberbatch's casting, but, as it relates to his performance as Khan, my only complaint is that he really didn't need to be Khan for the story to work. Beyond that, I enjoyed his performance very much.

 

[BigJake]

As for his ethnic origin, whys is it so difficult to imagine S31 surgically altering him to prevent recognition?

The racebending question is more about this-world issues (about which actors get which parts) than about whether we can fanwank a justification. Because of course we can, virtually without effort.

Eh, it seems to go both ways. I get the real-world issues involved in Cumberbatch's casting, but, as it relates to his performance as Khan, my only complaint is that he really didn't need to be Khan for the story to work. Beyond that, I enjoyed his performance very much.

Nobody is questioning the quality of Cumberbatch's performance, he's obviously a fine actor. That's not the point of the racebending critique either. The point is why the studio felt the need to cast a white Brit in a role that any number of South Asian actors could have delivered with (at least potentially) equal quality.

Of course it makes more sense (though not necessarily being excusable) if the Khan angle only came about late in the game, as it seems to have done.

 

[fireproof78]

The racebending question is more about this-world issues (about which actors get which parts) than about whether we can fanwank a justification. Because of course we can, virtually without effort.

Eh, it seems to go both ways. I get the real-world issues involved in Cumberbatch's casting, but, as it relates to his performance as Khan, my only complaint is that he really didn't need to be Khan for the story to work. Beyond that, I enjoyed his performance very much.

Nobody is questioning the quality of Cumberbatch's performance, he's obviously a fine actor. That's not the point of the racebending critique either. The point is why the studio felt the need to cast a white Brit in a role that any number of South Asian actors could have delivered with (at least potentially) equal quality.

Of course it makes more sense (though not necessarily being excusable) if the Khan angle only came about late in the game, as it seems to have done.

Well, I would politely disagree about the "nobody" questioning his performance, but I would be hard pressed to to find an example

Also, I would have to review all of the BTS to know the whys behind Cumberbatch's casting, especially after del Toro fell through.

 

[BigJake]

Yeah, I'm sure there's somebody somewhere who's questioned the quality of his performance, but you know what I mean. It's not exactly common.

 

[fireproof78]

Depends on the forum you're on

 

[martok2112]

And the depth and darkness of one's parent's basement.

 

[JWPlatt]

The point is why the studio felt the need to cast a white Brit in a role that any number of South Asian actors could have delivered with (at least potentially) equal quality.

Is race really an issue for you?

You should know that Benicio Del Toro, the preferred Khan, dropped out of negotiations "over monetary issues, leaving Abrams scrambling to find a replacement before the film’s January production start-date."

That's why. It sounds somewhat like getting Viggo Mortensen for the role of Aragorn at the last minute.

 

[BigJake]

The point is why the studio felt the need to cast a white Brit in a role that any number of South Asian actors could have delivered with (at least potentially) equal quality.

Is race really an issue for you?

I can't say as I'm particularly fussed on a personal level, but I'd probably have been pretty annoyed if, say, Alice Eve had been cast as Uhura or something. I understand why some South Asian viewers (and others) were pissed at the whitewashing and think just dismissing the argument out of hand -- or not making an effort to understand it -- is dickish. (That's why I get so irritable here when rhetorical squirming like "Ricardo Montalban was white so what's the big deal" or hairsplitting about whether Sikh is an "ethnicity" starts to come up. I don't like the sense of evasiveness and refusal to face the real point of contention squarely.)

 

[Franklin]

At the time the movie was being promoted, Cumberbatch told Krista Smith of Variety that he got the request to audition while in London over Christmas. They sent him two scenes to read. While at someone's home for the holiday, one friend read lines off camera for him while another friend taped the audition on an iPhone, and he sent the files back to Abrams.

Let's see:
-- Wrong ethnicity.
-- Wrong color.
-- Wrong physical build.
-- Wrong age.
-- Wrong accent.
-- GREAT PERFORMANCE.

Seems he nailed the one that matters most.

 

[Jedi_Master]

There are so many good alternative titles.

My Grippes with STID (wherein all the problems make me cough my lungs out)
My Crepes with STID (wherein I serve a nice brekkie for Crumblybatch and the NuTrek crew)
My Gropes with STID (all Alice Eve, all the time)
My Grypes with STID (wherein hungry griffins attack J.J. Abrams and tear him to shreds)
My Grifes with STID (wherein the primary villain of the piece is replaced by Roxxas from the Legion of Super-Heroes)

The possibilities are endless, really.

You seriously stole my only contribution to this ENTIRE thread.

Jackass