My Gripes with STID!

[Jeyl]

Both Khans were emotionally compromised by events in their lives. Neither was as sharp as he used to be. They both had tremendous flaws which showed. Both were something other than brilliant. Frankly, each in their own way, TWOK Khan and STID Khan were psychotic.

TWOK Khan spent 15 years on a planet that turned into a wasteland where he was forced to watch helplessly as his wife and 20 of his loyal followers die slow and horrible deaths. NuKhan on the other hand simply assumed that Marcus had killed every one of his followers and based his entire plan of vengeance on that assumption alone. Oh, and his assumption that his crew were killed was incorrect... TWICE! Your comparison is giving NuKhan way too much credit.

 

[BigJake]

^ This.

 

[Franklin]

Both Khans were emotionally compromised by events in their lives. Neither was as sharp as he used to be. They both had tremendous flaws which showed. Both were something other than brilliant. Frankly, each in their own way, TWOK Khan and STID Khan were psychotic.

TWOK Khan spent 15 years on a planet that turned into a wasteland where he was forced to watch helplessly as his wife and 20 of his loyal followers die slow and horrible deaths. NuKhan on the other hand simply assumed that Marcus had killed every one of his followers and based his entire plan of vengeance on that assumption alone. Oh, and his assumption that his crew were killed was incorrect... TWICE! Your comparison is giving NuKhan way too much credit.

I'm not giving either credit. Both were psychotic and emotionally scared. We caught neither at his best.

Khan in STID lived every day with the prospect of Marcus killing his people if he didn't cooperate with Section 31. Further, he had to suppress who he really was. Living with that threat and pressure, Khan probably never had a normal day. He still developed a way to try to free them, and when he was found out, he assumed Marcus killed them because that's what he had been told for so long would happen. Who wouldn't think that under the circumstance? For him it was get vengeance and then get the hell out. In the end, being wrong made his act of vengeance even more horrific. It didn't have to happen.

When Khan met Kirk and found out he was wrong, and his people may still be alive in the torpedoes, he adapted and created a new plan to save them.

As far as Spock tricking him into thinking his people exploded real good, by now Spock knows more about Khan from Spock Prime. He knows this man has superior intellect, but is also very loyal to his people and probably a bit unstable from his experiences. Khan feared losing his people more than anything, which would make him overprotective and possessive of them. He thought he lost them once, now, in an even less rational state, he again believes he lost them and went on an even more psychotic rampage.

I don't give either Khan any credit. Both were a mess. It worked in TWOK and STID.

 

[fonzob1]

Both Khans were emotionally compromised by events in their lives. Neither was as sharp as he used to be. They both had tremendous flaws which showed. Both were something other than brilliant. Frankly, each in their own way, TWOK Khan and STID Khan were psychotic.

TWOK Khan spent 15 years on a planet that turned into a wasteland where he was forced to watch helplessly as his wife and 20 of his loyal followers die slow and horrible deaths. NuKhan on the other hand simply assumed that Marcus had killed every one of his followers and based his entire plan of vengeance on that assumption alone. Oh, and his assumption that his crew were killed was incorrect... TWICE! Your comparison is giving NuKhan way too much credit.

This^

And Ricardo Montalban laid the groundwork for who the character was so casting Cumberbatch pissed all over that.

 

[Amaris]

Both Khans were emotionally compromised by events in their lives. Neither was as sharp as he used to be. They both had tremendous flaws which showed. Both were something other than brilliant. Frankly, each in their own way, TWOK Khan and STID Khan were psychotic.

TWOK Khan spent 15 years on a planet that turned into a wasteland where he was forced to watch helplessly as his wife and 20 of his loyal followers die slow and horrible deaths. NuKhan on the other hand simply assumed that Marcus had killed every one of his followers and based his entire plan of vengeance on that assumption alone. Oh, and his assumption that his crew were killed was incorrect... TWICE! Your comparison is giving NuKhan way too much credit.

This^

And Ricardo Montalban laid the groundwork for who the character was so casting Cumberbatch pissed all over that.

Pissed all over what? The rich, Corinthian leather of his hammy acting?

 

[fonzob1]

TWOK Khan spent 15 years on a planet that turned into a wasteland where he was forced to watch helplessly as his wife and 20 of his loyal followers die slow and horrible deaths. NuKhan on the other hand simply assumed that Marcus had killed every one of his followers and based his entire plan of vengeance on that assumption alone. Oh, and his assumption that his crew were killed was incorrect... TWICE! Your comparison is giving NuKhan way too much credit.

This^

And Ricardo Montalban laid the groundwork for who the character was so casting Cumberbatch pissed all over that.

Pissed all over what? The rich, Corinthian leather of his hammy acting?

It ignored much of what was already established about the character. Cumberbatch didn't bring much to to the table as far as acting in STID.

 

[Amaris]

This^

And Ricardo Montalban laid the groundwork for who the character was so casting Cumberbatch pissed all over that.

Pissed all over what? The rich, Corinthian leather of his hammy acting?

It ignored much of what was already established about the character. Cumberbatch didn't bring much to to the table as far as acting in STID.

What was established about his character? I see this kind of thing all of the time, and I don't know how anyone misses that this universe is an alternate one. Many things considered "canon" are not canon here, because they never happened.

 

[fonzob1]

Pissed all over what? The rich, Corinthian leather of his hammy acting?

It ignored much of what was already established about the character. Cumberbatch didn't bring much to to the table as far as acting in STID.

What was established about his character? I see this kind of thing all of the time, and I don't know how anyone misses that this universe is an alternate one. Many things considered "canon" are not canon here, because they never happened.

Khan apparently still happened. Why not just give Cumberbatch's character another name?

 

[Amaris]

It ignored much of what was already established about the character. Cumberbatch didn't bring much to to the table as far as acting in STID.

What was established about his character? I see this kind of thing all of the time, and I don't know how anyone misses that this universe is an alternate one. Many things considered "canon" are not canon here, because they never happened.

Khan apparently still happened.

Khan apparently existed, but the events of his discovery were changed, and so the story changed.

Why not just give Cumberbatch's character another name?

That's a matter of taste. You could say that for just about any character. Me, I liked Cumberbatch's portrayal of Khan. It had a nuance that Montalban's Khan, in TWOK, sorely lacked.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

How was Khan brilliant in TWOK?

He successfully operated a Starfleet ship on the fly with basically no prior experience. I think I'd have to score that as pretty impressive.

And NuKhan set up a plan into motion that almost let him take out Starfleet's senior command for the Sol system, managed to get to a place they couldn't officially chase after him without starting a war, then managed to take advantage of the unfolding situation to get his hands on a top secret Starfleet prototype warship with all the newest and advanced toys, killed the admiral he was pissed at, and almost had Kirk and co blown to bits and only failed becuase he underestimated Spock's ruthlessness.

 

[Amaris]

How was Khan brilliant in TWOK?

He successfully operated a Starfleet ship on the fly with basically no prior experience. I think I'd have to score that as pretty impressive.

And NuKhan set up a plan into motion that almost let him take out Starfleet's senior command for the Sol system, managed to get to a place they couldn't officially chase after him without starting a war, then managed to take advantage of the unfolding situation to get his hands on a top secret Starfleet prototype warship with all the newest and advanced toys, killed the admiral he was pissed at, and almost had Kirk and co blown to bits and only failed becuase he underestimated Spock's ruthlessness.

Yep. Between the two, nuKhan was far more cunning.

 

[BigJake]

And NuKhan set up a plan into motion [snip]

... that involved putting the most valuable people in the universe to him in torpedoes.

I'm sorry, but for all the plot armour (like Starfleet's conveniently stupid emergency protocols) and magic powers and devices (his own super-blood, interstellar super-transporters) he had to play with -- which makes comparing him to MontalKhan apples and oranges in a way, he lives in a far cartoonier universe -- there's just no redeeming that as supposed tactical and strategic brilliance even by the story's own terms. (Though I guess you have to give him some props for having designed some darn good torpedoes, they apparently had excellent yield.)

 

[Hartzilla2007]

which makes comparing him to MontalKhan apples and oranges in a way, he lives in a far cartoonier universe

Have you actually watched Prime Universe Trek?

I mean they have energy fields that make people psychic gods, their own versions of interstellar transporters, particles that can take out warp drive if they destabilize, viruses that can turn people into other species, a torpedo sized object that can make an entire planet out of a nebula or instantly terraform just a lifeless rock, a simple medical procedure can make a de-evolution virus, going too fast at warp can turn you into a salamander, giant Spock clones, alternate universes that can de-age people, godlike aliens running around all over the place, giant space amoebas, ridiculously easy time travel, Earth space probes turning into hyper destructive forces becuase some aliens decided to upgrade them a little, accidently transporting to other universes, creepy ass space pedophiles, and thats probably just scratching the surface.

 

[BillJ]

which makes comparing him to MontalKhan apples and oranges in a way, he lives in a far cartoonier universe

Have you actually watched Prime Universe Trek?

I mean they have energy fields that make people psychic gods, their own versions of interstellar transporters, particles that can take out warp drive if they destabilize, viruses that can turn people into other species, a torpedo sized object that can make an entire planet out of a nebula or instantly terraform just a lifeless rock, a simple medical procedure can make a de-evolution virus, going too fast at warp can turn you into a salamander, giant Spock clones, alternate universes that can de-age people, godlike aliens running around all over the place, giant space amoebas, ridiculously easy time travel, Earth space probes turning into hyper destructive forces becuase some aliens decided to upgrade them a little, accidently transporting to other universes, creepy ass space pedophiles, and thats probably just scratching the surface.

This!

 

[urbandefault]

which makes comparing him to MontalKhan apples and oranges in a way, he lives in a far cartoonier universe

Have you actually watched Prime Universe Trek?

I mean they have energy fields that make people psychic gods, their own versions of interstellar transporters, particles that can take out warp drive if they destabilize, viruses that can turn people into other species, a torpedo sized object that can make an entire planet out of a nebula or instantly terraform just a lifeless rock, a simple medical procedure can make a de-evolution virus, going too fast at warp can turn you into a salamander, giant Spock clones, alternate universes that can de-age people, godlike aliens running around all over the place, giant space amoebas, ridiculously easy time travel, Earth space probes turning into hyper destructive forces becuase some aliens decided to upgrade them a little, accidently transporting to other universes, creepy ass space pedophiles, and thats probably just scratching the surface.

This!

And that's just the first 50 years.

 

[Franklin]

which makes comparing him to MontalKhan apples and oranges in a way, he lives in a far cartoonier universe

Have you actually watched Prime Universe Trek?

I mean they have energy fields that make people psychic gods, their own versions of interstellar transporters, particles that can take out warp drive if they destabilize, viruses that can turn people into other species, a torpedo sized object that can make an entire planet out of a nebula or instantly terraform just a lifeless rock, a simple medical procedure can make a de-evolution virus, going too fast at warp can turn you into a salamander, giant Spock clones, alternate universes that can de-age people, godlike aliens running around all over the place, giant space amoebas, ridiculously easy time travel, Earth space probes turning into hyper destructive forces becuase some aliens decided to upgrade them a little, accidently transporting to other universes, creepy ass space pedophiles, and thats probably just scratching the surface.

That's why I fell in love with Trek!

 

[BillJ]

which makes comparing him to MontalKhan apples and oranges in a way, he lives in a far cartoonier universe

Have you actually watched Prime Universe Trek?

I mean they have energy fields that make people psychic gods, their own versions of interstellar transporters, particles that can take out warp drive if they destabilize, viruses that can turn people into other species, a torpedo sized object that can make an entire planet out of a nebula or instantly terraform just a lifeless rock, a simple medical procedure can make a de-evolution virus, going too fast at warp can turn you into a salamander, giant Spock clones, alternate universes that can de-age people, godlike aliens running around all over the place, giant space amoebas, ridiculously easy time travel, Earth space probes turning into hyper destructive forces becuase some aliens decided to upgrade them a little, accidently transporting to other universes, creepy ass space pedophiles, and thats probably just scratching the surface.

That's why I fell in love with Trek!

Same here.

 

[BigJake]

which makes comparing him to MontalKhan apples and oranges in a way, he lives in a far cartoonier universe

Have you actually watched Prime Universe Trek?

We have been many times through that dance, believe me.

 

[kirkfan]

which makes comparing him to MontalKhan apples and oranges in a way, he lives in a far cartoonier universe

Have you actually watched Prime Universe Trek?

I mean they have energy fields that make people psychic gods, their own versions of interstellar transporters, particles that can take out warp drive if they destabilize, viruses that can turn people into other species, a torpedo sized object that can make an entire planet out of a nebula or instantly terraform just a lifeless rock, a simple medical procedure can make a de-evolution virus, going too fast at warp can turn you into a salamander, giant Spock clones, alternate universes that can de-age people, godlike aliens running around all over the place, giant space amoebas, ridiculously easy time travel, Earth space probes turning into hyper destructive forces becuase some aliens decided to upgrade them a little, accidently transporting to other universes, creepy ass space pedophiles, and thats probably just scratching the surface.

Hey, you've included some TAS here. TAS is just too over the top for me.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Have you actually watched Prime Universe Trek?

I mean they have energy fields that make people psychic gods, their own versions of interstellar transporters, particles that can take out warp drive if they destabilize, viruses that can turn people into other species, a torpedo sized object that can make an entire planet out of a nebula or instantly terraform just a lifeless rock, a simple medical procedure can make a de-evolution virus, going too fast at warp can turn you into a salamander, giant Spock clones, alternate universes that can de-age people, godlike aliens running around all over the place, giant space amoebas, ridiculously easy time travel, Earth space probes turning into hyper destructive forces becuase some aliens decided to upgrade them a little, accidently transporting to other universes, creepy ass space pedophiles, and thats probably just scratching the surface.

That's why I fell in love with Trek!

Same here.

Honestly I think Star Trek kind of lost something when the TNG era shows started to tone down the weirdness.