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My gripe with Xena/Hercules

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"Make a claim about reality?" Of course not. Historical figures aren't just people who actually lived; they're symbols. Heck, many of them are myths in their own right. Most of what Americans believe about Christopher Columbus and much of what they believe about George Washington is pure fiction, fabricated by Washington Irving to give America a foundational mythology. So using a historical figure in a fantasy story isn't done in order to "claim" a damn thing about the real figure; it's done in order to invoke the symbolism and mythology surrounding that figure and use it as an element in an imaginary narrative.

The purpose of fiction isn't to "make a claim about" anything, unless it's specifically a polemic. The purpose of fiction is to tell satisfying stories, to entertain, stimulate, and enrich the audience. Any "claims" it makes are only meant to apply to the imaginary reality of the story, not to the external reality of the audience.
 
Plus there's the fact that silliness and absurdity can be virtues in their own right.

Cognitive dissidence doesn't have to be "unpleasant." In fact, it can be a rush! :)
 
XENA had great music and production values, clever scripts, an engaging cast, ambitious action sequences, and tons of zest. It was a silly show done by smart people.
Agreed. As Rob Tapert (Exec Producer of Xena, and now also Lucy Lawless' husband) has said before "Xena was a very dumb show, for very smart people." To fully appreciate the show you had to have a pretty good working knowledge of the subject matter they were parodying, for the parodies to make sense.

EJA said:
I think one of the reasons is the fact that the series frequently contradict themselves in regards to what time period they're set in
As far as the show "jumping around" in timeframe... lots of projects have done that, particularly those with comedic leanings. Mel Brook's work is rife with such paradoxes, such as Nazi soldiers in the old west, in "Blazing Saddles" or the fact that "Spaceballs" occurs in the distant past like "Star Wars" yet is also in the same distant future as "Alien" and the completely different distant future of "Planet of the Apes".
 
And what about all the movies and shows depicting cavemen coexisting with dinosaurs? Having Xena be a contemporary of both Helen of Troy and Genghis Khan is nothing compared to that.
 
I have to admit, Christopher and Greg have a point. Xena/Herc weren't the only shows to ignore historical accuracy for the sake of telling their own stories. Just watch Mel Gibson's Braveheart...
 
What was great about XENA and HERC, however, was that they didn't just take minor liberties with history. They ignored it so blatantly and ridiculously and deliberately that the anachronisms ceased to become "errors" and became something to look forward to.

Little historical errors are distracting and annoying, yes. But what HERC/XENA did was something else. They made a virtue of their anachronisms, pushing them past the reality barrier until, as I wrote years ago, "one's scholarly defenses are overwhelmed and the sheer audacity of the enterprise becomes all too irresistible."

Basically, Xena made history her bitch . . . .
 
In the eagerness to slay some straw men, some curious claims have been made.

"Not at all. You use characters like George Washington or Lizzie Borden because everybody knows who they are and they carry all sort of evocative symbolic weight and associations. If I write a book in which Harry Houdini teams up with H. P. Lovecraft to fight Rasputin, who is actually an evil android from another dimension, I'm not making any claims about reality. I'm just having outrageous fun with famous, archetypal figures. It's all about imagination and fantasy . . . and, yes, silliness.

Which can be a blast, if you're not hung up on what is "serious" and "real" and constitutes "good" science fiction."

But the evocative symbolic weight and associations come from reality. Strictly speaking, real people are not archetypes. Insofar as they become archetypes, this is often propagandistic in orgin and function. Repeating stereotype really is not just good clean fun. Even when it's relatively benigh, it's not very original.

Again this is exactly the same as claiming that if you drop some scientific gobbledygook to justfiy outrageous fun, you're not actually expecting that, on some level, willing suspension of disbelief that such things don't really happen. Science fiction is not all about imagination and fantasy and silliness. Serious is not a synonym for solemn or pompous despite the misapprehensions of some of the dark & gritty school of hacks. The thing about good science fiction is that it has a peculiar kind of relevance to us, which does not come from outrageous fun.

""Make a claim about reality?" Of course not. Historical figures aren't just people who actually lived; they're symbols. Heck, many of them are myths in their own right. Most of what Americans believe about Christopher Columbus and much of what they believe about George Washington is pure fiction, fabricated by Washington Irving to give America a foundational mythology. So using a historical figure in a fantasy story isn't done in order to "claim" a damn thing about the real figure; it's done in order to invoke the symbolism and mythology surrounding that figure and use it as an element in an imaginary narrative.

The purpose of fiction isn't to "make a claim about" anything, unless it's specifically a polemic. The purpose of fiction is to tell satisfying stories, to entertain, stimulate, and enrich the audience. Any "claims" it makes are only meant to apply to the imaginary reality of the story, not to the external reality of the audience."

There is no compelling logic for preferring fantasy history over real history. That's why it's perfectly sensible to find Hercules and Xena's nonsense distasteful. In any event, preferring archetypes to real characters, even the simple point of view characters often found in SF, is a pretty extreme position. It is rooted in a desire to avoid saying anything serious.

The absurdity of saying that only polemical fiction makes claims about reality unfortunately seems to cover up a deeper, much uglier notion: Fiction and drama are not to criticize reality. Even at the price of enlisting fantasy history and fantasy science as a backdrop for the antics of archetypes, instead of people! Again, taking things seriously does not require solemnity and pomposity. But, taking things frivolously is much easier if you prefer fantasy to reality.

Despite all the outrage, the whole point is that the ludicrous historical archetypes lurching around Hercules and Xena are not really satsifying, not very stimulating, not only not enriching but on one level impoverishing. That only leaves entertaining. Devoid of other virtues, so often this kind of stuff boils down to, do I like Kevin Sorbo? Or does Lucy Lawless make me horny?

I don't think much of the entertainment standard. My guess is that cheap whores have been more "entertaining" than the best writers and dramatists.

PS About Braveheart: The movie was aimed at a population who mostly don't even know Scotland is not the same as England. This is a country where even finding a history of Scotland, much less biographies of the principals, is difficult, even in public libraries. So difficult in fact, that I could not list the distortions. The point seems to be that blatant historical falsification is irrelevant to entertainment. My original point was that blatant historical falsification tends to lapse into farce (supposedly a farce on historical truth in the case of Braveheart.) The need to argue that historical truth is undesirable because it's less entertaining is actually a pretty extreme opinion. It seems to me to be a form of obscurantism.
 
Well then the issue becomes is it alright to use historical figures at all? My problem with Herc and Xena at this age ultimately just has to do with it being television I find largely unwatchable; nothing more complicated or polemical than that.

I have to admit, Christopher and Greg have a point. Xena/Herc weren't the only shows to ignore historical accuracy for the sake of telling their own stories. Just watch Mel Gibson's Braveheart...
I bloody hate that film.

Less because of its inaccuracy and more because it has a really stupid script. That's usually my standard - I make exceptions, sure, but them's personal.
 
The thing about good science fiction is that it has a peculiar kind of relevance to us, which does not come from outrageous fun.

.


No offense. But you're making "good" science fiction and fantasy sound like it's eating spinach. Speaking for myself, I don't judge books and tv shows on the basis of whether they are "serious" or "relevant" enough.

What about fun, humor, exoticism, suspense, and romance? It seems to me you're forgetting what draws people to stories in the first place.

Nobody ever stayed up late reading TREASURE ISLAND, or DRACULA, or TARZAN OF THE APES, because they thought that was what they were supposed to be reading. They did it because they wanted to be swept up in a captivating story, with colorful characters and engaging twists.

And nobody ever watched XENA because it fit some stringent aesthetic agenda. Or just because Lucy Lawless was hot. They watched because it was fun and entertaining, with appealing characters, terrific action sequences, and frequently witty jokes.

They were the modern-day equivalent of a great old Ray Harryhausen movie like JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS or THE SEVENTH VOYAGE OF SINBAD. With an extra dose of irreverent humor.
 
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stj always has a unique perspective.

I admit he lost me when he claimed that science fiction "was not all about fantasy and imagination and silliness" . . . .

Especially since, last time I checked, XENA was a fantasy series. :)
 
No time to join in and read the thread, but I'll plop in my Xena/Herc "lack of time line" chart just for fun:

xenachrt.jpg
 
Of course, you could extend that chart even further into the future. Not only did Herc meet Vlad the Impaler, but a couple of episodes established that Hercules was alive and well in the present day, disguised as an actor named Kevin Sorbo and starring in a TV show about Hercules.
 
There are two problems with the notion that silly science or silly history are more fun and entertaining, while taking the science or history seriously are like eating spinach. First, some people like spinach. Second, the insistence that "serious" means solemn or pompous is presuming the conclusion. In historical fiction, the novels of Gore Vidal take the history quite seriously but novels like Burr, 1876, Empire and Hollywood are amusing, to cite a well known example (at one time, anyhow.)

The implicit notion, that anything different about their work that bears on real life is unpleasant, really is more of a value judgment, that writers and dramatists have no right to express viewpoints contradicting the conventional wisdom. No one ever complains about the presumption that what is, is right. Phony history with propagandistic archetypes confirm the status quo and are always acceptable.
 
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