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My Conclusion: STXI = Reboot

BalthierTheGreat said:
So they changed the uniforms. I think you're placing way to much emphasis on the color of the pants Kirk wears.

The essence of Trek wasn't having Kirk in the right uniform, or not changing the set. The idea is exploration. I'd be far more inclined to call XI a reboot if it lacked the science fictiony goodness of TOS. Somehow all of this got backwards and Trek is only Trek for having the right look. Trek is Trek if it has the Trek nature. It would have been Trek if they made the TNG actors act nude on an empty set. What matters is the content, not the dressing.

I don't think you understand what's being said.

Those of us who've suggested the movie will be at least a type of reboot (possibly meaning to change the look only, but holding to all plotlines we know from the original timeline) aren't saying the movie won't be true to the "spirit" of Trek.

What we're saying is that Trek has always had an established history.

Everything followed what came before. Even ENTERPRISE addressed the seeming discontinuity of Klingon appearance, finally ironing out the one real wrinkle in continuity there was.

If we saw a glimpse back to an earlier Trek era, we saw EXACTLY what we'd seen before. It all matched.

What's happening here is like having a stage play where different actors play the characters with each new act, but they're not supposed to be a different age.

More than that, the sets keep being redesigned, us seeing several different versions of the same room, none of them looking like one another. Again, there not being any significant passage of time in the story.

You'd never accept it. You wouldn't know who was talking to who, and even if they used one another's names while talking, you couldn't be sure if this was the same "Mike and Betty" as you saw in the last act, or if this was a different couple. The changes in the sets would also have you wondering "where are they?", it not being clear that this is supposed to be the same room.

You'd never accept it as "sane" theater. You'd wonder just what these people were doing, and if this was some sort of bizarre "art" piece.

In Trek XI, we can easilly accept the new faces. This is an earlier time in the lives of Kirk, Spock, etc. We understand there have to be younger actors playing them.

To change the appearance of the ship, the uniforms, etc., however, is to change the anchor. We KNOW what the TOS era looked like, and now JJ seems to be telling us "No you don't...but this IS the same era."

In my own thread, I compared this to SUPERMAN RETURNS. Supposedly, Singer intends this to be a sequel to the first two films starring Chris Reeve as Clark/Superman. While some things look different (and it's implied they always have...the costume, for example), the EVENTS of the first two films are what's being held on to. Not the look, but the plot/story/continuity.

It seems that dispite Team Trek's promising us that XI does indeed take place in the same continuity we've always known, their changing the look of EVERYTHING says very plainly it does NOT.

The closest we can come is to view XI as a parallel universe. Maybe a later film with this cast will take place during the five year mission, and make references to things we saw during the series. If this happens, it'll plainly suggest that the STORIES we know are sill valid, but for THIS Kirk and Spock, the things seen in those stories by us LOOKED different than we remember.

Again, it seems the best we're going to have with XI is a very similar parallel universe to "our" TOS.

I don't like that they're changing things, but if it works one way, it can work the other way too.

We might be able to well imagine that while the new Kirk and Spock with their nu-look Enterprise are having various adventures in this and any later films, "our" Kirk and Spock had the very same adventures, but with the ship, uniforms, and equipment that we know from the original series.

Quality of film-making or story-telling isn't what this is all about.

It's simply a matter of things looking different, and the production thus PROVING itself to not be the same universe/continuity we've always known.

It seems CBS/Paramount and JJ have decided to disconnect from "our" Kirk and Spock and their reality, and show us something else.

Okay. Maybe it'll still be a sort of "Star Trek", but it won't be the same, despite claiming to be.
 
That's not true, though. Every flashback and prequel story done in Trek before has had inconsistencies with the original source material. Including in how things looked and what people wore.

Your example of Superman Returns is a good one, though. That movie does take place in the continuity of the other films, just like this one will. Unlike, say, Batman Begins, which is completely separate and independent of the other Batman movies that have been made.
 
Did you even bother to read the OP (i.e. my) post? Because nothing about your rant has ANYTHING to do with what I said or feel about this movie.

The one thing I have concluded is all Trek's before this one have treated TOS as a real aspect, warts and all, of established canon. This will be the first one that does not, it seems. Is that good or bad? I don't know. All I know is that I will find out when I go see it next December, and that I am looking forward to it.
 
The Mighty Monkey of Mim said:
That's not true, though. Every flashback and prequel story done in Trek before has had inconsistencies with the original source material. Including in how things looked and what people wore.

Yes, it is true.

Please give examples of how such things varied from one another so's to establish an entirely separate continuity, instead of simply being a case of an actor having a hair out of place.

See Kirk's bloodstained uniform in STII after Scotty's nephew dies. It changes at least twice, I believe, and yet it's supposed to be the same stain.

If there's such a variation in a single piece, and yet it's all one story, I'd say having such a minor difference in two different pieces representing the same event does not mean "different continuity".

Changing the look of the Enterprise inside and out, and claiming it's all one continuity? No.

You're probably one of those people who think Saavik didn't get plastic surgery between II and III. ;)
 
OphaClyde said:
Did you even bother to read the OP (i.e. my) post? Because nothing about your rant has ANYTHING to do with what I said or feel about this movie.

The one thing I have concluded is all Trek's before this one have treated TOS as a real aspect, warts and all, of established canon. This will be the first one that does not, it seems. Is that good or bad? I don't know. All I know is that I will find out when I go see it next December, and that I am looking forward to it.

And if it proves to be a violation of continuity, planetwide Trekkers shall gather with torches raised high, a plentitude of crazed mobs, screaming for all copies of the vile film to be burned and the makers of it to be glued into TOS uniforms and left in the Sahara.

Or, we may simply demand to know when the DVD is being released. :p
 
gastrof said:
OphaClyde said:
Did you even bother to read the OP (i.e. my) post? Because nothing about your rant has ANYTHING to do with what I said or feel about this movie.

The one thing I have concluded is all Trek's before this one have treated TOS as a real aspect, warts and all, of established canon. This will be the first one that does not, it seems. Is that good or bad? I don't know. All I know is that I will find out when I go see it next December, and that I am looking forward to it.

And if it proves to be a violation of continuity, planetwide Trekkers shall gather with torches raised high, a plentitude of crazed mobs, screaming for all copies of the vile film to be burned and the makers of it to be glued into TOS uniforms and left in the Sahara.

Or, we may simply demand to know when the DVD is being released. :p

Yeah. Either way. :lol:
 
But if rumors hold true and the story involves time travel and a subsequent alternate universe then Abrams take on things could still be considered a connected piece to TOS proper. The ship, uniforms even the characters looks and personality could change without having any elements of previous Trek wiped out. In essence this wouldn't be a reboot of ST but an extention of the its saga. Imagine following the adventures of this crew that are familiar but not limited to the trapings of canon. New alliances could form, planets might explode, characters could die unexpectedly. And in this way Pine and Quinto are playing alternate versions of Kirk and Spock(they wouldn't be competing with anyone). If it comes off close to this, it could be a win-win for everyone.
 
^ Like I said, let the fans explain it to themselves. If enough people like the damned movie, they'll drive whatever square pegs into whatever round holes they have to to make it fit.
 
^^^
... I volunteer to pound some square fans into some oddly shaped holes.
 
I'd like to see a movie that keeps me more engaged with its concepts and characters than one that keeps distracting me by having things appear inconsistent with a show that's been in the public eye for 40 years. Seems like a simple request, though around here, I'm not always sure.
 
Well, Kurtzman and Orci have commented on this in interviews, more or less saying that Star Trek (2008) will respect the established continuity.

Didn't they say there were also gonna be some references to 'modern' Trek in this film? To me that pretty much signifies that this film will NOT be a reboot in the sense that the events take place in another universe than the TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT universe. It might have a somewhat 'rebootish' quality when it comes to the look of the ship and the uniforms, but as has been pointed out in this thread, the Starfleet look keeps changing every now and then , so I don't see a problem.

And we've had two actresses portray the character of Saavik, so I don't see why they couldn't recast other characters as well, even as iconic as the original Enterprise crew.

Comes down to this: Despite some changes in the way things will look, I see no reason whatsoever to assume Star Trek (2008) is a reboot.

Addition: From the new SCI FI interview:

So for that reason, with every single step as we go forward, anything that is suggested that is out of canon or is total heresy, Bob Orci will be like, 'Yeah we can't do that.' He keeps everything on track. So it feels like we have done a really good job keeping things, more or less, within the boundaries of of existing film canon..."
 
Once again, welcome to the TrekBBS School for Gifted Psychics who can predict the outcome of a movie mooooooooonths before its release: "It's Teh Suxxor!1!!11!eleven1one!"
Where is Erik Jendersen's Romulan chill pill?
 
Kurtzman and Orci dealt with these same questions with Transformers when everybody saw that Optomus had flames and Bumblebee was a camaro. Everything turned out alright and Transformers rocked. I think Trek is in good hands. It may have a slightly different look, but won't be changed all that much just enough to make it look and feel realistic and up to date
 
If this film was a reboot, why would the writers care about saying something like this, which is from the latest interview they have given;

Unfortunately, Shatner’s Captain Kirk was killed in Star Trek 7, so the difficulty there is not just ignoring that or explaining it away in an unsatisfactory way merely to get him back in. That is the struggle–the rigors of canon and not phoning it in just to have a cameo. From my point of view, it’s a very long shoot, and things can change. It’s just whether we can figure it out.
 
I think most people would agree some redesigning just has to be done.
For example if they get in a shuttle, I don't wanna see that huge honking lamp and those ridiculous controls with analog gauges.
I also believe most people would accept a radical redesigning of the sickbay, if some nods to TOS- like McCoy's "poison bottles" and the iconic lifesign display, the biobeds- are included.
While there are those who will never give this movie a chance, most people that are skeptical now will be ready to enjoy it if it's clear JJ tried to respect the old designs going beyond being just "nods" in sensitive areas.

Maybe the bridge design, the uniforms and the Enterprise model are most crucial. No one will give a shit if they totally redesign the shuttle interior or even the corridors, but if the bridge looks very different and "anachronistic", many people will be pissed.
I like Orci's statement about filling the blanks of canon. I want to see "what the original TOS bridge could do": Expand on the original touchscreen controls instead of replacing the buttons with TNG-style controls for example. Also, show what Sulu and Spock are seeing in their viewers, show new places on the ship, like a rec deck with big windows or even a holographic astrometrics lab.

Redesigning the transporter console (and room) will be hard because it's both iconic and looking incredibly crappy.

Maybe some designs cannot be saved. But if they totally throw things away that worked, just to be kewl, that would be a shame.
This movie should be about everything that made TOS so great. That's the characters, true. But it's also some of the designs that are not just "iconic", but also timeless and credible.

Same with the WNMHGB uniforms. They don't even have to all wear them. Maybe only the bridge officers wear them in that period. Maybe security and engineering have special outfits like in TMP. But it would be nice to see the WNMHGB/The Cage uniforms also exist "there".
 
TeutonicNights said:
I think most people would agree some redesigning just has to be done.
For example if they get in a shuttle, I don't wanna see that huge honking lamp and those ridiculous controls with analog gauges.
I also believe most people would accept a radical redesigning of the sickbay, if some nods to TOS- like McCoy's "poison bottles" and the iconic lifesign display, the biobeds- are included.
While there are those who will never give this movie a chance, most people that are skeptical now will be ready to enjoy it if it's clear JJ tried to respect the old designs going beyond being just "nods" in sensitive areas.

Maybe the bridge design, the uniforms and the Enterprise model are most crucial. No one will give a shit if they totally redesign the shuttle interior or even the corridors, but if the bridge looks very different and "anachronistic", many people will be pissed.
I like Orci's statement about filling the blanks of canon. I want to see "what the original TOS bridge could do": Expand on the original touchscreen controls instead of replacing the buttons with TNG-style controls for example. Also, show what Sulu and Spock are seeing in their viewers, show new places on the ship, like a rec deck with big windows or even a holographic astrometrics lab.
Well, that seemed to be Enterprise's take on things . . . and we saw how that all worked out.
 
Well, that seemed to be Enterprise's take on things . . . and we saw how that all worked out.

"redesigning", was hardly the thing that killed Enterprise (which I generally liked) being pretty much the same (bland, predicable) of what we'd seen years of already had more to do with that.

Having the wrong colored railings won't kill this film. Being a chore to watch or just plain boring will.

Sharr
 
OphaClyde said:
Even with Nimoy aboard, this is a reboot. To what extent remains to be seen, but it is.

Your main evidence for it being a reboot continues to be that Uniforms have changed.

Sorry, mate, you're overreacting. And quite frankly, we don't want Trek made and remade the way it was, do we? We have those shows and movies already.

This anguish seems self-satisfying and self-pitying.
 
I say, bring on the reboot.

I love TOS, I loved TNG. The rest, I couldn't really get into (though I watched ENT). Either way, Trek was in dire need of a reboot. It's either that or let it die on the vine. I'm not willing (as if I have any power) to let that happen. If it takes a "reboot" to breathe new life into my favorite sci-fi franchise, then godspeed to the rebooters.
 
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