Must There Be A Section 31?

[fireproof78]

That means there are really only Bad Kirks.

No, it doesn't.

It just means that people get to the point were the best of intentions are still influenced by our dark side.

The good side of the Federation recognised this and stopped them.

And how long did that take? Leyton got to martial law over all of Earth before he was stopped. He couldn't have progressed that far unless there were others that thought the security was far more important than the cooperation.

Pressman violated interstellar law and treaty and wasn't even remorseful. He expected to be supported by members of Starfleet Command.

Pure good is a journey, not a destination. It requires the balancing of our own needs, while not being excessive, either to virtue or vice. That is not an easy process.

 

[TheFlutteringHorde]

I think there's a place for a darker and more militaristic organization that acts in the name of the Federation without its consent that thinks it's doing the right thing by making the hard choices no one else will, but all it really does it start wars and genocides with this flawed belief. I don't think it's a stretch at all that such an organization might be exist when the Federation is surrounded by xenophobic totalitarian powers which engage in that exact sort of behavior on a regular basis. There's always going to be a group of idiots who want to fight fire with fire. I don't think we need them as actually being good guys who are just tougher than our heroes when we have heroes a plenty that are already willing to go to pretty extreme extremes to protect the Federation. To borrow from Stargate a bit, I'd like them to be seen as the Trust after they got pushed out of the NID not as the NID after the Trust got pushed out of them.

 

[DonIago]

Must there be a S31?

I'd like to believe the answer is no, whether we're speaking of the modern world or the world of the future that Star Trek offers in its various incarnations.

But I fear the answer is that it's not only inevitable but perhaps really is necessary. That perhaps it's not possible to be a saint in paradise without someone lurking in the background propping it up.

As was once said in (an alternate timeline in) BTVS:
Giles: I have to believe in a better world.
Buffy: Go ahead. I have to live in this one.

 

[NCC-73515]

A top secret small and hidden group that only does its rule-bending for matters of Federation survival and otherwise stays out of everything (as in DS9) is necessary as long as there are equally powerful enemies and threats around. An openly acting and public group that does regular intel and threat containment work when intel and security services already exist is not.

 

[Arpy]

No, there needn't be a Section 31. Section 31 is not Starfleet Intelligence. Starfleet Intelligence does the work of intelligence services. Section 31 are a fascist organization who, in the real world, would be trying to take over the Federation "for its own security" just as they would be trying to genocide its enemies. Section 31 is out for their own vision of the galaxy, not the Federation's. That's why they're their own secret organization and not part of Starfleet Intelligence.

At least, this is the case for the organization as it was on DS9. DSC made it a very out in the open Gestapo organization that everyone in the galaxy is just supposed to ignore in interstellar diplomatic relations with the Federation. Yeah, okay. No doubt their headquarters are in Gaza.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

It's funny, because projects that use Section 31 generally end with them being at the least not helpful.

In Deep Space Nine they were Bashir's antagonist, who he had to defeat in order to stop the Jem'Hadar massacring everyone in a blind fury.
In Enterprise they had Reed sabotage the NX-01 and nearly caused a catastrophe.
In Into Darkness they were so keen on starting a war with the Klingons that they tried to blow up the Enterprise.
In Discovery they basically led to the destruction of all life in the galaxy.
In Picard their experiments created Vadic's Changeling rebels and led to the whole crisis there.

It's right there on the screen that these guys are one of Star Trek's biggest recurring villains, who keep getting stopped but never shut down. I don't get why the franchise is trying to rehabilitate them and justify their actions, except that maybe one of the producers is into leather clothes and war crimes. Why are they making dumb comedies about Section 31 operatives going on a Mission: Impossible caper, when we should be getting thoughtful thrillers about Starfleet Intelligence operatives trying to stop Section 31?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

It certainly makes them and the ensuing arguments for and against more complicated if there are times when they seem to succeed, or at least not fail so badly. Reform, replace, or remove?

 

[Michael]

No doubt their headquarters are in Gaza.

I’m gonna nip this in the bud right away: Don’t bring up political hot button issues like that for no reason. Adding this was entirely unnecessary.

 

[DonIago]

It certainly makes them and the ensuing arguments for and against more complicated if there are times when they seem to succeed, or at least not fail so badly. Reform, replace, or remove?

I agree. Just as some ethical arguments in Trek would be less of an argument if more options were available or such ("We can preserve Tuvix, Tuvok and Kes!"), the opposite is true here, where S31 becomes more of an ethical quagmire if they're shown doing things like mitigating the Xindi attack on Earth.

 

[fireproof78]

It certainly makes them and the ensuing arguments for and against more complicated if there are times when they seem to succeed, or at least not fail so badly. Reform, replace, or remove?

Replace.

By any means necessary sounds alright until you realize what those means might include.

One of the biggest aspects of Section 31 that stood out to me in ENTERPRISE was the idea that they grew out of a response to a specific concern as Earth moved out in to the greater interstellar stage. It was a response to a specific moment.

But, as the Federation formed the original mission was lost or modified. I think the reason we see 31 struggle and be more known or less known was a response to shifting galactic landscape. Rarely successfully.

I like it to the NID from Stargate, and members of Stargate Command who started stealing items of technology for the defense of Earth. O'Neill has a pointed statement that reveals a difference in mission from the NID to Stargate Command: "We don't need their stuff...we need them."

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Starfleet should have some kind of self-limiting clause on divisions, so when the problem is solved, there's an expiry date, or at least a required hearing where the continued existence of such groups as they are should be re-evaluated, and if rejected, folded into groups with a longer history and better oversight, their employees retrained and reassigned.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Section 31 is a fantastic antagonist.

But some writers who actively hate Trek idealism truly believe they're the missing ingredient for the Federation to exist.

These writers should never be allowed to write a script again.

 

[DonIago]

Section 31 is a fantastic antagonist.

But some writers who actively hate Trek idealism truly believe they're the missing ingredient for the Federation to exist.

These writers should never be allowed to write a script again.

I'd like to know who you feel "some writers" are, and what the basis for your claim that they "hate Trek idealism" is.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

A clandestine branch of Starfleet, authorized to undertake extreme measures. With no regards for Federation law and presumably no accountability?

It's a "Former Branch of StarFleet Intelligence" now.

It just operates on it's own, in the shadows now.

I REALLY dislike it's use of StarFleet Insignia / Ships after they've been ex-communicated.

They really need their own Logo & Unique Ship Designs IMO to seperate themselves as their own entity / force.

 

[Dar70]

My question is why Does Section 31 have its own forum? Yeah yeah I know it was gonna be a series. But it's not and ended up a not very good movie. So when does this forum get merged with Trek Movies???

 

[fireproof78]

My question is why Does Section 31 have its own forum? Yeah yeah I know it was gonna be a series. But it's not and ended up a not very good movie. So when does this forum get merged with Trek Movies???

Probably a couple of months after release. This was discussed by the mods and was ensuring people could find the discussions.

 

[The Wormhole]

My question is why Does Section 31 have its own forum? Yeah yeah I know it was gonna be a series. But it's not and ended up a not very good movie. So when does this forum get merged with Trek Movies???

Since there is talk of doing other streaming movies, this forum will be turned into a general streaming movie forum if and when other streaming movies happen.

And just because Section 31 seems to be a dud, I wouldn't rule out another streaming movie happening at some point. It just likely won't be about Section 31.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'd like to know who you feel "some writers" are, and what the basis for your claim that they "hate Trek idealism" is.

The ones for this promoted it as a necessary quality of the Federation.

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[DonIago]

The ones for this promoted it as a necessary quality of the Federation.

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If by this you mean the S31 film, then by "some", you mean "one".

 

[arch101]

DS9 proved that they are a necessary evil in order to have a utopian society. Because not EVERYONE is going to go along with utopia. So, who deals with them? And what if they are so unreasonable that diplomacy or Starfleet can't deal with them. We will always be saddled with the sad reality that, if not for S31's attempted genocide, the Alpha Quadrant would have lost the war.