^The set dressing of Khan's peoples' hovel has long caused confusion among certain groups of fans. Certain documentation, even the novelization, describes the cargo carriers as having been salvaged from the Botany Bay, and the strap/latch Chekov finds inside supports this. But the carriers look suspiciously like 23rd century cargo carriers, with the support struts you mention, Timo. So the question becomes; Are they all from the Botany Bay? Or are they all 'current'(23rd century) technology? Or are they a mix of both?
Movie Shuttles
- Thread starter gmbeatnik
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I guess it depends on where Engineering really is. If we accommodate the forward-extending, matted-in corridor seen in ST:TMP, we have to move it backwards quite a bit, meaning the cargo hold ports now become "directly below". And there's a turbolift right there next to the docking port, while its location relative to the torpedo deck port is less clear.
Plus, the torpedo deck port has this annoying habit of disappearing on occasion! (See the close-up when Kirk removes the Reliant's nacelle.)
Heck, we don't even know if Khan ever wanted to colonize anything. For all we know, his plan all along was to float aimlessly and broadcast an SOS, then hijack whoever came to help him. The "How long?" question would be highly pertinent to such a plan...
OTOH, we know Kirk is well stocked to assist random colonists. In "Devil in the Dark", there's this substance they use for making shelters... One wonders why this wasn't used here. Or perhaps the foundations for the containers were built out of that stuff, allowing the bottoms to be knocked out and explaining the greater interior height evident from the sets, in contrast with the ST:TMP direct comparison between containers and people standing next to them?
"Space Seed" and its aftermath are issues somewhat separated from the shuttlecraft topic, as Kirk would have wanted to make sure Khan had no access to spacecraft at any point! That is, the supermen were no doubt beamed down rather than allowed to ride aboard shuttles. And if their containers were taken down by a workbee, then the implication would be that workbees really are worthless as spacecraft...
Timo Saloniemi
Plus, the torpedo deck port has this annoying habit of disappearing on occasion! (See the close-up when Kirk removes the Reliant's nacelle.)
I guess there's nothing going against the container design having remained unchanged since the 20th century (even though we didn't see it appear in ENT). But why would Kirk have gone back for those things? Khan cut the tractor beam when the two ships were nowhere near Ceti Alpha, and he supposedly took with him everything he thought he needed.
Heck, we don't even know if Khan ever wanted to colonize anything. For all we know, his plan all along was to float aimlessly and broadcast an SOS, then hijack whoever came to help him. The "How long?" question would be highly pertinent to such a plan...
OTOH, we know Kirk is well stocked to assist random colonists. In "Devil in the Dark", there's this substance they use for making shelters... One wonders why this wasn't used here. Or perhaps the foundations for the containers were built out of that stuff, allowing the bottoms to be knocked out and explaining the greater interior height evident from the sets, in contrast with the ST:TMP direct comparison between containers and people standing next to them?
"Space Seed" and its aftermath are issues somewhat separated from the shuttlecraft topic, as Kirk would have wanted to make sure Khan had no access to spacecraft at any point! That is, the supermen were no doubt beamed down rather than allowed to ride aboard shuttles. And if their containers were taken down by a workbee, then the implication would be that workbees really are worthless as spacecraft...
Timo Saloniemi
I always thought that thing was simply a belt that one of the supermen had brought from the Botany Bay.
^The latch on it is closer in design to a seatbelt, restraint or binding strap. That's why it's plausible the container was from the Botany Bay, and was somehow soft-landed on the planet's surface.
Or then the strap was used for binding the few items that Khan brought aboard the Enterprise before scuttling his own ship - say, his books.
The huts themselves are really poorly seen in the movie, but set/model photos show they had UFP logos on the outside... You might in theory make these out when Terrell and Chekov first spot the containers. In practice, you can't.
There are items labeled as being Starfleet fare inside, too, but those could arguably have been added by Kirk to 20th century containers, too. Or then this is in reference to the 20th century United States Starfleet...
Timo Saloniemi
The huts themselves are really poorly seen in the movie, but set/model photos show they had UFP logos on the outside... You might in theory make these out when Terrell and Chekov first spot the containers. In practice, you can't.
There are items labeled as being Starfleet fare inside, too, but those could arguably have been added by Kirk to 20th century containers, too. Or then this is in reference to the 20th century United States Starfleet...
Timo Saloniemi
The strap could have been used that way, but why afterward would Khan bolt it to the wall? Remember, Chekov was, as he leaned over, hanging from it. The strap, even if used to constrain the books, was more likely holding them on the shelf as the carrier was soft-landed. And was meant for that use.
I suppose it's possible* that the strap was retrieved from the Botany Bay and bolted to the interior of the UFP container for use. That seems a little like make-work for someone, though.
*Where have we heard that before?
I suppose it's possible* that the strap was retrieved from the Botany Bay and bolted to the interior of the UFP container for use. That seems a little like make-work for someone, though.
*Where have we heard that before?
The bookshelf looks designed to hold something other than books. But the location of the strap looks meant to hold whatever is on the shelf in place, probably during moving the carrier around. As far a cobbled together, the cage for the ceti eels was probably a cake display stand at one point. There's no telling how Khan and his followers had to repurpose any- and everything. I just find the strap to be conspicuous in how it remains so close to where and how it was originally placed.
Point taken. One wonders whether Khan tried to move the set of containers after the conditions on the planet changed - and failed? I doubt the settlement would originally have featured four containers in a neat cluster, two twisted out of line (even if not out of shape), and two buried in sand. Or was the calamity itself to blame for that? Did it happen gradually enough that Khan would have felt the need, and had the time and means, to batten down the hatches and strap everything in tight, then wait it out...?
Also, is this the habitation element of settlement, or just what survives of it? The whole Sandoval colony in "This Side of Paradise" looked like one farm with one habitable building, despite there being twice the "Space Seed" number of folks to be settled. Granted, Sandoval's folks were super-peaceful and perhaps therefore satisfied with cramped quarters, but Khan's folks were supposedly superior to humans, too. I could see Kirk discussing with Khan the fact that he can spare no more than these eight containers and the colonization supplies contained within before Starfleet starts asking too many questions, and Khan okaying the limitations (whether real, or chosen by Kirk in hopes of keeping Khan down).
I could also see Kirk setting up a more extensive colony, though. I can't easily see him going back for the Botany Bay, though, for any reason. Khan was a hot potato, so time probably was of essence. Letting Khan regain access to his own hardware might be a grievous mistake, too. And it's not as if Kirk really needed anything from that older ship, or needed to do anything with or to the ship (now that the SOS beacon supposedly was off for good).
Timo Saloniemi
Also, is this the habitation element of settlement, or just what survives of it? The whole Sandoval colony in "This Side of Paradise" looked like one farm with one habitable building, despite there being twice the "Space Seed" number of folks to be settled. Granted, Sandoval's folks were super-peaceful and perhaps therefore satisfied with cramped quarters, but Khan's folks were supposedly superior to humans, too. I could see Kirk discussing with Khan the fact that he can spare no more than these eight containers and the colonization supplies contained within before Starfleet starts asking too many questions, and Khan okaying the limitations (whether real, or chosen by Kirk in hopes of keeping Khan down).
I could also see Kirk setting up a more extensive colony, though. I can't easily see him going back for the Botany Bay, though, for any reason. Khan was a hot potato, so time probably was of essence. Letting Khan regain access to his own hardware might be a grievous mistake, too. And it's not as if Kirk really needed anything from that older ship, or needed to do anything with or to the ship (now that the SOS beacon supposedly was off for good).
Timo Saloniemi
Food for thought: Khan not only frees his people from cryosleep, but moves over all supplies he thinks he might need to Enterprise before cutting it loose. Then Kirk allows Khan and his people to have a discrete, carefully sorted number of the supplies, in the original containers when -ahem- abandoning them on Ceti Alpha V.
I know, it's just speculation, but he had the time to do it after taking over the Enterprise, and before his attempt at gaining command control of Enterprise's crew. And at that point, Kirk's magnanimity impressed Khan enough that the seeming betrayal of "never checking on our progress" would infuriate Khan and drive him that much farther over the edge.
I know, it's just speculation, but he had the time to do it after taking over the Enterprise, and before his attempt at gaining command control of Enterprise's crew. And at that point, Kirk's magnanimity impressed Khan enough that the seeming betrayal of "never checking on our progress" would infuriate Khan and drive him that much farther over the edge.
It just doesn't strike me as likely that Khan would be interested in colonizing empty worlds when he has just captured a starship. What need does he have for "supplies" (beyond his personal library and collection of trophies) when he can take whatever he wants from whomever he wants?
What Khan might bring across would be containers full of weapons. But if he did, where were those when he was fighting? Khan appears to be the perfect opportunist, making use of somebody else's weapons when defeating them,and ditching items without shedding a tear when finding better ones. Although he doesn't ditch people that way, interestingly enough.
Timo Saloniemi
What Khan might bring across would be containers full of weapons. But if he did, where were those when he was fighting? Khan appears to be the perfect opportunist, making use of somebody else's weapons when defeating them,and ditching items without shedding a tear when finding better ones. Although he doesn't ditch people that way, interestingly enough.
Timo Saloniemi
Why would Khan accept colonizing a world Timo?
When events handed Khan lemons, he made lemonade.
But when he had to choose whether to bring aboard stuff from his old ship, he wasn't being handed lemons - he was being handed a starship, i.e. gilded keys to the universe. At that point, I can't see him stopping to make lemonade.
Would he decide to colonize back in 1996? Perhaps - but if so, why didn't he? Why did he spend two centuries asleep when the Trek galaxy had countless worlds ready for taking?
1) Did he not know where he was going? But then he should have taken a look every now and then to get some idea of that. 200 years of relativistic cryosleep (closer to 300 years of objective travel time) got him well past "known space" - that is, Earth when he left was unaware of, say, the Vulcans right next door.
2) Did he plan on taking a look, but his cryotimer malfunctioned and he overslept?
3) Did he have a nearby destination in mind, but a malfunction caused him to both miss it and oversleep?
4) Did he plan on looping back to Earth when things had quieted down, but either 200 years was not yet enough or then something again went wrong?
5) Did he plan on sailing until somebody rescued him, then jumping at the rescuers and conquering the universe?
Out of these plans, only a few would justify the use of an emergency beacon. Stealth would be key to escape, and to looping back...
The nature of the lemons handed Khan is also an interesting question. In "Space Seed", he's a defeated ruler, a "Napoleon", admired for his civility by all the human heroes. In ST:ID, he's a war criminal on the run. Can both be true? Naturally, depending on who (re)wrote the history. Revisionism might have been applied in one timeline but not in the other after the 2233 split.
How would either of the alternate Khans gain access to an interstellar spacecraft, albeit outdated one, in 1996? I guess the least implausible scenario would be Khan preparing a Plan B when still in charge of a big chunk of the globe, including its most advanced resources. But what sort of a Plan B would a still triumphant superman devise for his unlikely future downfall? What sort a descending star betrayed by his friends and harassed by his enemies already?
Colonization and a new start?
Horrible vengeance?
A clever feint?
...A maximally flexible plan with lots of Swiss Army Knives, tents, piglets, false mustaches and grand pianos aboard the spacecraft?
Going back to the thread, sort of: did Khan even have a means of landing on a planet? The Botany Bay herself is vaguely aerodynamic, but her (apparent, remaining) containers are larger than the ones seen on the surface of Ceti Alpha V and might be difficult to ease down to terra firma. There's little sign of shuttlecraft...
Timo Saloniemi
Would he decide to colonize back in 1996? Perhaps - but if so, why didn't he? Why did he spend two centuries asleep when the Trek galaxy had countless worlds ready for taking?
1) Did he not know where he was going? But then he should have taken a look every now and then to get some idea of that. 200 years of relativistic cryosleep (closer to 300 years of objective travel time) got him well past "known space" - that is, Earth when he left was unaware of, say, the Vulcans right next door.
2) Did he plan on taking a look, but his cryotimer malfunctioned and he overslept?
3) Did he have a nearby destination in mind, but a malfunction caused him to both miss it and oversleep?
4) Did he plan on looping back to Earth when things had quieted down, but either 200 years was not yet enough or then something again went wrong?
5) Did he plan on sailing until somebody rescued him, then jumping at the rescuers and conquering the universe?
Out of these plans, only a few would justify the use of an emergency beacon. Stealth would be key to escape, and to looping back...
The nature of the lemons handed Khan is also an interesting question. In "Space Seed", he's a defeated ruler, a "Napoleon", admired for his civility by all the human heroes. In ST:ID, he's a war criminal on the run. Can both be true? Naturally, depending on who (re)wrote the history. Revisionism might have been applied in one timeline but not in the other after the 2233 split.
How would either of the alternate Khans gain access to an interstellar spacecraft, albeit outdated one, in 1996? I guess the least implausible scenario would be Khan preparing a Plan B when still in charge of a big chunk of the globe, including its most advanced resources. But what sort of a Plan B would a still triumphant superman devise for his unlikely future downfall? What sort a descending star betrayed by his friends and harassed by his enemies already?
Colonization and a new start?
Horrible vengeance?
A clever feint?
...A maximally flexible plan with lots of Swiss Army Knives, tents, piglets, false mustaches and grand pianos aboard the spacecraft?
Going back to the thread, sort of: did Khan even have a means of landing on a planet? The Botany Bay herself is vaguely aerodynamic, but her (apparent, remaining) containers are larger than the ones seen on the surface of Ceti Alpha V and might be difficult to ease down to terra firma. There's little sign of shuttlecraft...
Timo Saloniemi
It's all speculation, after all, but each of the Botany Bay's cargo containers may have been a storage pod for the containers seen on Ceti Alpha V. No one ever said Khan had to have salvaged everything. But it's possible he could have saved the containers with his books, and weapons, and any number of other things he thought might come in handy - Aboard A Starship. Empty those containers out, fill them with supplies from Enterprise's stores, give Khan his books back, and voila! You have what we saw in the film.
But as stated, it's all just idle speculation.
But as stated, it's all just idle speculation.
Yeah, Khan could have done pretty much anything at that point. He was triumphant and unchallenged, and this would be a good time to plan ahead. It's just the nature of such plans that remains an open question.
If Khan brought aboard weapons, why did he not put them to any use? His crew used either their bare hands or unfamiliar 23rd century guns - out of sheer arrogance? Did Khan transport containers containing atomic artillery and attack aircraft, for future needs of world domination, and for the old adage of never ditching weapons or water in case of an emergency?
All of this is open to speculation, as we really cannot see the UFP symbols on the containers even in HD screencaps. OTOH, those containers being compatible with 23rd century ones and their handling hardware remains an onscreen near-fact anyway, with all its implications regarding workbees and orbit-to-surface means of transport.
Timo Saloniemi
If Khan brought aboard weapons, why did he not put them to any use? His crew used either their bare hands or unfamiliar 23rd century guns - out of sheer arrogance? Did Khan transport containers containing atomic artillery and attack aircraft, for future needs of world domination, and for the old adage of never ditching weapons or water in case of an emergency?
All of this is open to speculation, as we really cannot see the UFP symbols on the containers even in HD screencaps. OTOH, those containers being compatible with 23rd century ones and their handling hardware remains an onscreen near-fact anyway, with all its implications regarding workbees and orbit-to-surface means of transport.
Timo Saloniemi
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? The world may never know.
Kirk had a starship at his disposal. He could have easily doubled back to the Botany Bay, which wasn't going anywhere, and towed it to Ceti Alpha 5. That, or retrieved all of Khan's stuff. Either way, Kirk wasn't going to dump Khan on an untamed planet with nothing but the clothes on his back.
But dumping him there with his own stuff doesn't appear advantageous. Kirk has better colonization stuff aboard, and using that eliminates the need to go back for the useless old ship plus gives Kirk better control of what Khan has.
Also, Kirk holds this trial for Khan basically right before sending him down to the planet; the Enterprise is already underway and heading towards the Ceti Alpha system. The conclusion is not foregone - Khan could have opted for public trial or a violent suicide instead. Would Kirk really first have asked Khan nicely, then sailed all the way back to the Botany Bay again? Why not ask before setting sail for Ceti Alpha?
In the hearing, both Kirk and Khan seem to treat the idea of Khan "taming a world" as a new option previously not considered by the superman...
Timo Saloniemi
Also, Kirk holds this trial for Khan basically right before sending him down to the planet; the Enterprise is already underway and heading towards the Ceti Alpha system. The conclusion is not foregone - Khan could have opted for public trial or a violent suicide instead. Would Kirk really first have asked Khan nicely, then sailed all the way back to the Botany Bay again? Why not ask before setting sail for Ceti Alpha?
In the hearing, both Kirk and Khan seem to treat the idea of Khan "taming a world" as a new option previously not considered by the superman...
Timo Saloniemi
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