motive of probe's "attack"

[Ziriath]

The probe seems to me like a simple plot device and Deus Ex Machina. And all the glorious, awesome Starfleet with all its phasers and torpedoes doesnt know, how to deal with one goddamn probe, (the devil knows where it came from, who and why constructed it, and what it wants to do with the whales), coz the probe is TOTALLY INVINCIBLE.
I do not like this movie too, coz I hate its premise- main ST characters hangin out in 20th century american city, seekin for whales, and nobody knows exactly how to behave in that time. I am an ecological (and logical) person, but the ecological propaganda doesnt work for me here. It's not subtle and decent, its hitting the audience with a sledgehammer. And were they so short on time they couldnt take on a historian, who know how 20th century world works? Also the main cast clothing is FUGLY. I hate slash, but I must admit Kirk and Spock are dressed like an elder lesbian couple on vacation. And 20th century american city? Sorry, Americans, this environment doesn't interest me at all. (but I think even an European city wouldn't interest me more in this case). I know this is a light-hearted movie, but Trek as a comedy doesn't work for me.
This movie is simply not Star Trek how I know it and like it.

 

[Timo]

Why should "vaporizing of oceans" be considered a destructive act?

We see and hear it cause discomfort for humans. But it's just more cloud coverage than usual, a bit of severe weather that as such won't terminate life on Earth or dry out the oceans or anything. Earth isn't in any particular danger here - it's merely that Earth is completely at the mercy of this probe thing, so there's a potential for immense danger.

Perhaps the probe is a terraformer. It is supposed to seed available, fallow planets with oceanic life. But if the oceans are already inhabited by advanced lifeforms, it will stop. And for all we know, cetaceans or cetaceanoids are particularly common in the Trek universe, just like humans and humanoids are, so the probe is told to check for those via sonic communication before proceeding. (For all we know, it also scans for fish and octopi and whatnot, but by different means our heroes don't pay attention to. And for those whale types that don't sing.)

In the absence of whalesong (and possible other indicators), the probe proceeded with its mission, and began by improving the quality of the oceans by increasing rainfall. Perhaps it wanted more rivers to pump their contents to the oceans or something.

As for "communicating" with the whales, I don't think we see signs of that. The probe just sends out whalesong, and when it gets some in return, it's satisfied that the planet isn't fallow after all, and leaves. No mutual understanding is required. Spock could have been completely wrong in speculating that the whalesong had to be reproduced accurately and with content - just playing back some songs of the Arcturan Smaller Redtooth Whale would have been fine.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CoveTom]

I think the intent was clearly that the probe and the whales were actually communicating in some way. But that was sort of part of that "tug of war" between Harve Bennett/Paramount and Leonard Nimoy/Nicholas Meyer regarding whether or not they should subtitle the communication. I agree with Nimoy and Meyer that subtitling it would have ruined the mystery and, although it would have solved discussions like this one, it would have been to the detriment of the film.

As far as the effect on the oceans, I'm content with the idea that it's a side effect of the probe's attempt at communication, rather than a deliberate act. However, that does beg the question of why a civilization advanced enough to construct the probe in the first place would not be aware of a side effect that could be potentially dangerous to the very creatures they were seeking to contact.

 

[Cyke101]

The President said the probe was vaporizing the oceans, Spock inferred from that that the message was directed at the oceans. I think the vaporization was either an accidental or unavoidable side effect of a signal that could travel through a vacuum yet cause sound waves upon contact with air and water.

That was my conclusion as well, or at the very least, the same way yelling for someone would blow away smaller lifeforms because of the amount of breath being used.

And going along with this post and with what others said, I believe it's plausible that the damage was unintentional and that the probe didn't know it was hurting people. It could be designed solely for a specific type of creature (ie the whales), and we saw beings like V'Ger regard humanity as something lower down the ladder (whatever that ladder may look like) or even as nonbeings to begin with, a trope which happened a couple times on TOS.

I think the intent was clearly that the probe and the whales were actually communicating in some way. But that was sort of part of that "tug of war" between Harve Bennett/Paramount and Leonard Nimoy/Nicholas Meyer regarding whether or not they should subtitle the communication. I agree with Nimoy and Meyer that subtitling it would have ruined the mystery and, although it would have solved discussions like this one, it would have been to the detriment of the film.

I also agree with the communication intent, as the movie's perspective keeps switching between the whales and the probe, a movie technique reserved for communication over long distances. But I didn't know about that tug of war, and that's pretty interesting. Of course, having all the answers there would have been catering, and I'm of the firm belief that there's two kinds of Star Trek: the one that maintains mystery (the canon, most expanded media) and the kind in which every single thing is accounted for (um, fanfiction? the boards? etc ).

 

[Maurice]

Another way of looking at the probe's actions is as a mirror to the main point of the story: not realizing that your actions are ultimately harmful. The Probe is not thinking about what its transmissions are doing to the rest of the Earth's biosphere, it's just trying to accomplish its goal without looking at the broader implications. Maybe that wasn't intentional in the script, but it still thematically fits the film's message.

I hate slash, but I must admit Kirk and Spock are dressed like an elder lesbian couple on vacation. And 20th century american city?

What an idiotic and inaccurate generalization.

 

[Captrek]

However, that does beg the question of why a civilization advanced enough to construct the probe in the first place would not be aware of a side effect that could be potentially dangerous to the very creatures they were seeking to contact.

Potentially. That’s a key word.

Technology aside, the probe doesn’t do much lasting damage.

Hence my fanwank that it was designed not to. The probe was designed to search for the whales with this process, a process that is designed not to do serious lasting damage.

What the probe’s designers did not anticipate was another species, human, sitting in the small “sweet spot” where the probe becomes a big problem: advanced enough to have technology that fails in the presence of the probe, but not advanced enough to have technology that withstands the probe’s presence; advanced enough to project and anticipate the catastrophic damage that will result if the probe doesn’t stop, but not advanced enough to have any way of knowing that the probe is going to stop. Naturally they think, “Unless a way can be found to respond to the probe, we’re all going to die.”

 

[Timo]

If we assume the probe is smart enough to have a discussion with whales, it doesn't seem credible it wouldn't understand that humans want to have discussion with it. In that case, the probe explicitly decides to ignore the plight of the humans, either because it wants to harm the humans (revenge motive because it knows humans killed the whales) or because it considers humans to be of no significance (destruction is a necessary side effect of the probe's unknown but important line of work) or because it knows that the stupid humans are simply wrong and there is no harm in a little bit of temporary cloud cover and the humans will see it if they only bother to wait a few more days.

If we don't assume the probe passes the Turing test (in Whalish at least), then it becomes possible to argue that it is a stupid machine that hurts humans by accident. But otherwise, the actions must be considered deliberate; the decision not to respond to humans, likewise.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

When your lab culture has died, the first thing you do is sterilize the petri dish and start over.

 

[MarsWeeps]

Maybe it was pissed off too? Perhaps the probe did some research with Starfleet's computers and found that the whales were extinct due to the Humans.

I have to wonder...whatever alien intelligence was in contact with the whales...shouldn't they know what happened? Don't you think the whales would have mentioned being hunted down and slaughtered?

Unless it was periodic and not a constant contact that they had with the whales, maybe every several hundred years they made contact and then it stopped, so they sent the probe to investigate.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Another way of looking at the probe's actions is as a mirror to the main point of the story: not realizing that your actions are ultimately harmful. The Probe is not thinking about what its transmissions are doing to the rest of the Earth's biosphere, it's just trying to accomplish its goal without looking at the broader implications. Maybe that wasn't intentional in the script, but it still thematically fits the film's message.

All around, a very good point here.

Regarding the visual effects, I remember being extremely impressed with them on the big screen at the time, particularly the panoramic shot of the HMS Bounty taking off from Vulcan, and of it hovering over the whaling ship.

 

[Captrek]

I have to wonder...whatever alien intelligence was in contact with the whales...shouldn't they know what happened? Don't you think the whales would have mentioned being hunted down and slaughtered?

How could the whales have understood what was happening?

 

[MarsWeeps]

How could the whales have understood what was happening?

When attempting to understand the probe's attempt at communication:

Spock tells McCoy, “There are other forms of intelligence on Earth, Doctor. Only human arrogance would assume the [probe’s] message must be meant for man.”

From Spock's mind meld with Gracie:

KIRK: "What else did you learn from your mind-meld?"
SPOCK: "They're unhappy about the way their species has been treated by man."

 

[Alrik]

How could the whales have understood what was happening?

When attempting to understand the probe's attempt at communication:

Spock tells McCoy, “There are other forms of intelligence on Earth, Doctor. Only human arrogance would assume the [probe’s] message must be meant for man.”

From Spock's mind meld with Gracie:

KIRK: "What else did you learn from your mind-meld?"
SPOCK: "They're unhappy about the way their species has been treated by man."

I don't remember the exact dialog, but next Kirk asks Spock if he was able to get her to understand their intentions. Spock replies that he believes so and that they are willing to help. So the whales were up to speed on everything that was happening.

 

[T'Girl]

whether or not they should subtitle the communication

Is there any record as to what the subtitles would have been?

I hate slash, but I must admit Kirk and Spock are dressed like an elder lesbian couple on vacation. And 20th century American city?

If they wanted to avoid attention, Spock walking around in his bathrobe was a bad idea, even in San Fransisco.

Maybe it was pissed off too? Perhaps the probe did some research with Starfleet's computers and found that the whales were extinct due to the Humans.

But that research would have also shown that the people who were responsible, were themselves "extinct." Spock said the whales died out centuries in the past. The Humans on Earth in the twenty-third century were completely blameless.

 

[Captrek]

Spock said the whales died out centuries in the past. The Humans on Earth in the twenty-third century were completely blameless.

"The sins of all the fathers / Are dumped on us the sons / The only choice we're given is / 'How many megatons?'"

 

[Ziriath]

I hate slash, but I must admit Kirk and Spock are dressed like an elder lesbian couple on vacation. And 20th century American city?

If they wanted to avoid attention, Spock walking around in his bathrobe was a bad idea, even in San Fransisco.

It seemed to me he was pulled out of bed and went right on the mission without changing clothes. Even the boots looked like socks with soles, if I remember it. The robe looks like a Vulcan equivalent of sweatpants. Nimoy was not so thin as he used to be in TOS, and he was not fat either, but that outfit is definitely not flattering and makes him look fat. I understand it must be a comfortable piece of clothing- one can be outside all the day without getting overheated or sunburned, but still: SPOCK, Y U NO DRESSED BETTER?
Uh, sorry for OT.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Is there any record as to what the subtitles would have been?

No, because it was never decided what was being said. Vonda McIntyre's prose in the ST IV novelization suggests some interpretations.

If they wanted to avoid attention, Spock walking around in his bathrobe was a bad idea, even in San Fransisco.

Actually, the actors were shocked they often didn't attract enormous crowds when filming. Their outfits didn't stand out all that much from other San Franciscans.

But that research would have also shown that the people who were responsible, were themselves "extinct."

The Whale Probe had seemingly dismissed all other life on Earth as totally irrelevant. Rather like V'ger (TMP) failing to recognize the crew of Enterprise as sentient, then dismissing them an infestation of "carbon units".

 

[Therin of Andor]

It seemed to me he was pulled out of bed and went right on the mission without changing clothes. Even the boots looked like socks with soles, if I remember it. The robe looks like a Vulcan equivalent of sweatpants.

Huh?

It's a Vulcan meditation robe, in the same style as those seen in other ST movies (TMP's Vulcan masters; even one of Sybok's outfits). The boots were off-white leather, certainly not "socks with soles". The garment is also reminiscent of hooded robes seen on other desert locales in ST TV series.

 

[Ziriath]

Sorry, even when I knew it's purpose, I still see it as an equivalent of Arthur Dent's bathrobe.

 

[T'Girl]

The robe looks like a Vulcan equivalent of sweatpants.

It's a Vulcan meditation robe, in the same style as those seen in other ST movies

Since it is so similar to other Vulcan's apparel, I took it to be standard "Vulcan casual wear."

Sweatpants.