Most morally questionable act by a protagonist?

[Anwar]

How am I drawing the "wrong conclusion"? Your post makes it clear that you'd be disgusted with everything except Picard just coming in a saving the Boraalans without any real exploration of the consequences of his actions. By that logic he should go around handing out advanced technology and warp cores to cavemen.

 

[rahullak]

^
You are drawing the wrong conclusion because:

1. My post does not say I would be "disgusted" with everything.
2. I do say that given the option between having to choose between saving some Boraalans over allowing their culture and people to become extinct, it would be better to do the former.
3. You take one sentence out of context and for some unknown reason decide to make personal attacks about "people like me" and my supposed "bias" against TNG.

I am not responsible if you choose to spin what I say negatively (and quite trollishly) just because it happens to be a different opinion from yours.

 

[Anwar]

^
You are drawing the wrong conclusion because:

1. My post does not say I would be "disgusted" with everything.

You said that choosing which Boraalans to live would be repulsive, you've made it clear that what they did was repulsive. Therefore both choices are repulsive.

2. I do say that given the option between having to choose between saving some Boraalans over allowing their culture and people to become extinct, it would be better to do the former.

You said both were repulsive.

3. You take one sentence out of context and for some unknown reason decide to make personal attacks about "people like me" and my supposed "bias" against TNG.

The TNG Haters always use the same argument over and over and over again, it's always the stupid Boraalans. It's a sure sign that you're dealing with a biased TNG Hater when they bring up the Boraalan thing and refuse to think anything other than "they didn't save all life on that planet so it's wrong!"

But if you think I'm making a personal attack I say we go to PMs.

 

[rahullak]

^
You are drawing the wrong conclusion because:

1. My post does not say I would be "disgusted" with everything.

You said that choosing which Boraalans to live would be repulsive, you've made it clear that what they did was repulsive. Therefore both choices are repulsive.

Taken out of context. Hence invalid. You might want to try re-reading the lines below or my original post again.

2. I do say that given the option between having to choose between saving some Boraalans over allowing their culture and people to become extinct, it would be better to do the former.

You said both were repulsive.

You're still refusing to take the statement I'm making here at face value. I'll say it again, "given the option between having to choose between saving some Boraalans over allowing their culture and people to become extinct, it would be better to do the former."

This means: Save some of them and their culture, before they all disappear
Save them from a guaranteed destruction and extinction.
That's better than standing around doing nothing assuming there are going to be long-term negative consequences which is not guaranteed and which can be avoided.

3. You take one sentence out of context and for some unknown reason decide to make personal attacks about "people like me" and my supposed "bias" against TNG.

The TNG Haters always use the same argument over and over and over again, it's always the stupid Boraalans. It's a sure sign that you're dealing with a biased TNG Hater when they bring up the Boraalan thing and refuse to think anything other than "they didn't save all life on that planet so it's wrong!"

But if you think I'm making a personal attack I say we go to PMs.

Your conclusion that I'm a TNG hater is a wrong one and drawn without any evidence about ME. Just because some other TNG haters do so does not mean that every person who chooses to point out the Boraalan episode is a TNG hater. Incorrect logical deduction and conclusion.

I love TNG and Picard, and I believe they did the wrong thing when it came to that episode.

Based on your unnecessary personal attacks how would you like it if I drew the false conclusion that you're a troll?

I don't care to go into PMs because frankly, I want nothing more to do with this matter. I've made my opinion clear. I don't care if you don't like it.

 

[Anwar]

I'll say it again, "given the option between having to choose between saving some Boraalans over allowing their culture and people to become extinct, it would be better to do the former."

This means: Save some of them and their culture, before they all disappear
Save them from a guaranteed destruction and extinction.
That's better than standing around doing nothing assuming there are going to be long-term negative consequences which is not guaranteed and which can be avoided.

And you still mentioned that going through a selection process of who to save would be repulsive. Meaning even if they had done what you suggested, you'd still be disgusted and we'd still be arguing over it only you'd be arguing that they saved the wrong people. And unending argument.

I want nothing more to do with this matter. I've made my opinion clear. I don't care if you don't like it.

That's okay, I'm starting to no longer care what the TNG hating/VOY hating/ENT hating crowd thinks anymore.

 

[rahullak]

I'll say it again, "given the option between having to choose between saving some Boraalans over allowing their culture and people to become extinct, it would be better to do the former."

This means: Save some of them and their culture, before they all disappear
Save them from a guaranteed destruction and extinction.
That's better than standing around doing nothing assuming there are going to be long-term negative consequences which is not guaranteed and which can be avoided.

And you still mentioned that going through a selection process of who to save would be repulsive. Meaning even if they had done what you suggested, you'd still be disgusted and we'd still be arguing over it only you'd be arguing that they saved the wrong people. And unending argument.

No I wouldn't be disgusted if they'd done what I suggested. It would be painful to have to choose is what I said. But that pain is worth it if it means saving a people and its culture. That's how my own statements should be read.

You drew a false conclusion. Can't help it if you assume certain things about me, based on some curious notion that I'm a TNG hater.

I want nothing more to do with this matter. I've made my opinion clear. I don't care if you don't like it.

That's okay, I'm starting to no longer care what the TNG hating/VOY hating/ENT hating crowd thinks anymore.

And still you insist on name-calling after I've made clear I'm not a TNG hater. In fact I don't actively "hate" any series.

 

[Anwar]

No I wouldn't be disgusted if they'd done what I suggested. It would be painful to have to choose is what I said. But that pain is worth it if it means saving a people and its culture. That's how my own statements should be read.

Then you shouldn't have said that the choice of saving them but having to choose whom to save would also be repulsive.

And still you insist on name-calling after I've made clear I'm not a TNG hater.

No, I'm just saying that I'm starting to no longer care about what the extremist haters think of me anymore since I now know they hold anyone who likes TNG/VOY/ENT in utter contempt. If you think that's aimed at you, guess what that makes you?

 

[rahullak]

No I wouldn't be disgusted if they'd done what I suggested. It would be painful to have to choose is what I said. But that pain is worth it if it means saving a people and its culture. That's how my own statements should be read.

Then you shouldn't have said that the choice of saving them but having to choose whom to save would also be repulsive.

You misread my original post. I made my position clear in subsequent posts. End of story.

And still you insist on name-calling after I've made clear I'm not a TNG hater.

No, I'm just saying that I'm starting to no longer care about what the extremist haters think of me anymore since I now know they hold anyone who likes TNG/VOY/ENT in utter contempt. If you think that's aimed at you, guess what that makes you?

Well, thanks for clarifying. But next time when you make a statement not aimed at me, I would appreciate it if you didn't quote me just before that statement.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

...going through a selection process of who to save would be repulsive.

Anwar, saving lives is repulsive to you?
I guess triage after an accident/a catastrophe is repulsive to you too, because some of the victims will die in any case.
Better to let them all die and pretend we didn't make the gratuitous decision that cost many of them their lives - for the record, that's repulsive.
Choosing who to live - if one can't save everybody - is hard, but it's also the correct moral decision.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

...going through a selection process of who to save would be repulsive.

Anwar, saving lives is repulsive to you?
I guess triage after an accident/a catastrophe is repulsive to you too, because some of the victims will die in any case.
Better to let them all die and pretend we didn't make the gratuitous decision that cost many of them their lives - for the record, that's repulsive.
Choosing who to live - if one can't save everybody - is hard, but it's also the correct moral decision.

Well, I think what Anwar means is that saying "you live, I'll save you/help you" to one person and ignoring or dismissing another is wrong. Triage is different, as that is a medical decision, a professional choice made without bias. Too often, however, have certain groups of people been left to die because prejudices, biases or simple customs have promoted certain people's lives above those of others. To choose some people to save is to suggest others are less important or worthy of life.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Anwar was saying that Picard was right not to try to rescue the boraalans because:
He can't save them all - which, in my opinion, is improbable;
He shouldn't try to save some of them because it's repulsive (in all situations) to make the choice - who should live and who should die. And because, apparently, Enterprise doesn't have the capacity to rescue/carry a few thousand boraalans.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Deranged Nasat
There's a contradiction in your post.
You say "To choose some people to save is to suggest others are less important or worthy of life."
But triage is also, in the end, a choice about who should live and who should die - and you agree with it.

You want to say that when one can only save some of the victims, choosing who lives and who dies is morally correct, as long as it's done in accordance to objective criteria - yes?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Deranged Nasat
There's a contradiction in your post.
You say "To choose some people to save is to suggest others are less important or worthy of life."
But triage is also, in the end, a choice about who should live and who should die - and you agree with it.

You want to say that when one can only save some of the victims, choosing who lives and who dies is morally correct, as long as it's done in accordance to objective criteria - yes?

Yes, that was what I meant, thank you. Triage uses the judgement of a medical professional to evaluate injury and direct limited resources or time in an attempt to save as many people as possible. Who those people are doesn't matter, it's simply about the medical resources at hand; in a sense, the lives of everyone there are considered equally important, and as many who can be saved are. Its about getting the highest number of survivors you can given sadly limited resources. The doctors are constrained by those resources. When there is a selection on the basis of "let's choose some people to live, some to die" in a manner where it is not medicine or resources but personal evaluation on who is more important or should be saved first that is dictating your response, that's immoral. Saying "we'll take this group of people first" is in my mind immoral- unless (and I know this opens me up to charges of hypocrisy) you're talking about rescuing children first, as pretty much any parent would automatically try to get their child to safety ahead of themselves.

 

[Anwar]

...going through a selection process of who to save would be repulsive.

Anwar, saving lives is repulsive to you?
I guess triage after an accident/a catastrophe is repulsive to you too, because some of the victims will die in any case.
Better to let them all die and pretend we didn't make the gratuitous decision that cost many of them their lives - for the record, that's repulsive.
Choosing who to live - if one can't save everybody - is hard, but it's also the correct moral decision.

I was using Rahullak's quote, in which it was said that

It would have been repulsive to pick and choose among millions of Boraalans

Which pretty much clued me in that his actions were going to be despised by his detractors (those who wanted Picard to be a warmonger) in the fandom no matter WHAT he did in that episode.

 

[rahullak]

...going through a selection process of who to save would be repulsive.

Anwar, saving lives is repulsive to you?
I guess triage after an accident/a catastrophe is repulsive to you too, because some of the victims will die in any case.
Better to let them all die and pretend we didn't make the gratuitous decision that cost many of them their lives - for the record, that's repulsive.
Choosing who to live - if one can't save everybody - is hard, but it's also the correct moral decision.

I was using Rahullak's quote, in which it was said that

Which was misread, misunderstood, taken out of context, spun out of proportion as an attack upon TNG itself (), and which I later clarified.

 

[The Badger]

Given all the above, I'd like to clarify my opinion on the matter.

I fully concede that for technical and practical reasons it may have been impossible to help Boraalans. I'll even accept that the Enterprise crew knew this prima facia, hence their unwillingness from the start to even try to help.

Unfortunately, this is not how it is presented in the episode. It has been a while since I last saw it, but as I recall when Worf's brother suggests saving them, his comments are rejected on moral grounds, not technical ones. There are no attempts to explain why saving them wouldn't work. It is not that the Enterprise crew believe they couldn't do anything to help, they believe that they shouldn't.

And that is why Homeward upsets me. Letting an entire civilization perish should always be tragic. I can accept that sometimes Star Fleet can do nothing to help. But here, astonishingly, disturbingly, the crew of the Enterprise are portrayed as believing that planetary extinction is somehow morally desirable.

And I cannot accept that.

 

[Tuvok]

I took it that these sort of situations have occurred many times to the crew in the past, and they figured there was no point in getting all weepy or strung-out over it and just deal with it as usual.

That's really not the issue here, and I apologise If I've not expressed my objection to this episode clearly.

I fully agree with you, Anwar, when you say there can be circumstances when acting to save a pre warp civilisation could be impractical. I'm even willing to accept that there may have been nothing the Enterprise crew could do to help in the episode Homeward.

What offends me, truly offends me, about this episode is that the crew, the heroes, are unwilling to even discuss the possibility of saving them. They apparently believe that total extinction is preferable to 'cultural contamination'. Instead of the hopeful, optimistic view of the future we normally get in Trek, here we have a cynical, jaded version.

I can't remember if it was this episode or not, but I recall a Picard speech about how the PD is intended to protect Star Fleet from making such decisions. So rather than an attempt to help pre-warp cultures, it has suddenly become selfish.

I agree here. At the very least they should have portrayed the crew frantically searching for options to save the Boraalans (or even save some of them or the most important cultural people: like in the new Star Trek movie when the Vulcan elders who are responsible for preserving the Vulcan culture are saved and the planet is destroyed thereafter).

They were unwilling to even consider the possibility of saving some Boraalans to prevent extinction, quoting the Prime Directive. As someone mentioned earlier, even 150 people could have been enough of a gene pool to start repopulation elsewhere and the Enterprise was definitely capable of holding much more. It would have been repulsive to pick and choose among millions of Boraalans, but not more so than condemning the culture and the species to extinction because of some moral high-ground.

You know I know a lot of people will diagree reagarding Sisko and the Marquis. With interesting and valid arguements as well.

But honestly, who dosent think Homeward was a major WTF Picard?!

A planetfull of people get wiped out and you hold a moment of silence.

 

[rahullak]

^
Agreed. Twas a sad day, but merely a tiny blot on the beauty that is TNG

 

[ProtoAvatar]

I, for one, try to ignore episodes such as Homeward and I,Borg as much as possible. Otherwise, I would be forced to consider Picard&co callous mass-murderers, who beleive themselves to be the peak of moral perfection.

 

[Furtados_Feet]

What was Picard supposed to do in　"Homeward" exactly?