Monogamy, non-Monogamy, Polyamory

[Ood Sigma]

Well, this thread has been a good reminder of why I tend not to share this information with people.

Please don't take offense. If you're happy, we're happy. (Or at least, I'M happy - don't want to speak for The Collective. )

It's just that you didn't sound very happy. If you don't mind me asking, did you and your wife talk about poly first, you agreed, and then she found a boyfriend, or was the order reversed? (Or was some step in that missing altogether?)

No offense taken. And I am happy. I'm not saying it's what I expected or initially wanted, but that's life.

Without going into too much detail, apparently she had felt like she might want to be poly for a long time, but never found anyone else she wanted to be with in that way, so she never brought it up. She did meet someone, and then asked me what I thought of it. But she hadn't started the relationship yet; she wanted my approval first. And I respect her for doing that - it took a lot of bravery, knowing that it could have ruined everything for a possibility. I probably would have reacted differently if she had already begun things.

That you have to "struggle" with your wife's desire to sleep with others, while denying you the same freedom, is a bad sign.

There's no denying happening, since I'm not seeking that "freedom". I don't want anyone else. And my struggle is with accepting the changes and sacrifices I've had to make to accommodate the lifestyle, not her love for someone else (although I do admit that early on, I did have to struggle with that part. But I've accepted that.)

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Well, this thread has been a good reminder of why I tend not to share this information with people.

Please don't take offense. If you're happy, we're happy. (Or at least, I'M happy - don't want to speak for The Collective. )

It's just that you didn't sound very happy. If you don't mind me asking, did you and your wife talk about poly first, you agreed, and then she found a boyfriend, or was the order reversed? (Or was some step in that missing altogether?)

No offense taken. And I am happy. I'm not saying it's what I expected or initially wanted, but that's life.

Without going into too much detail, apparently she had felt like she might want to be poly for a long time, but never found anyone else she wanted to be with in that way, so she never brought it up. She did meet someone, and then asked me what I thought of it. But she hadn't started the relationship yet; she wanted my approval first. And I respect her for doing that - it took a lot of bravery, knowing that it could have ruined everything for a possibility. I probably would have reacted differently if she had already begun things.

That you have to "struggle" with your wife's desire to sleep with others, while denying you the same freedom, is a bad sign.

There's no denying happening, since I'm not seeking that "freedom". I don't want anyone else. And my struggle is with accepting the changes and sacrifices I've had to make to accommodate the lifestyle, not her love for someone else (although I do admit that early on, I did have to struggle with that part. But I've accepted that.)

Well, if you're okay with it, more power to you. If you are unhappy, though, and you're just going along because you don't want to be alone, you should really think on that.

 

[CaptainStoner]

^ Thanks for posting, Ood, sincerely. It "sounds" as if your situation is unfair, that it was arrived at by ultimatum, but none of us are you.
I'm just entering that weekend period where she's with the other boyfriend for a couple days.
It's bullshit, really. I respect and honor their relationship, but some of this is just plain bullshit. For me, for him, for everyone. Levels and barriers, suppression and compartmentalization. I don't want that long-term. So I speak it. Certainly not here first. I really believe its important to speak one's truth and bring it out.
But on the other other hand, this is not a situation where my beloved is married to the other person, nor lives with him. It's really just that she's "dating" more than one. Not as intense as some of the situations others have described, which I personally could not stretch into. I have too much gourami, too much chest-thumping, in me, and I'm proud of it.
I agree completely with those talking about Integrity, this is vital, in all cases, whatever the mental framework. I am certainly free to date others also, but ~ it's not a promiscuous free-for-all, far from it. It's really about love, about principle. About walking together and not owning each other. If monogamy then happens, it is pure, not contrived.
I don't like the circumstances, but on the whole, I feel hugely blessed. It's not so much that she is "poly", but that she is of great integrity, and doesn't believe in "trading up", or down, as it were.
Every time I've gotten together with a supposedly monogamous woman, there was some kind of recent "dumping" in the background, and eventually I was similarly dumped. We reap what we sow. To choose not to do that, and to work through what is there, and take the path of least harm, seems wise to me, whatever term it is called by.

Here's to not getting into a twist ~
God is Love
Peaceout

 

[Ood Sigma]

^ Thanks for posting, Ood, sincerely. It "sounds" as if your situation is unfair, that it was arrived at by ultimatum, but none of us are you.

You're welcome. It does sort of sound that way, but the truth is that she did ask for my permission, and that she feared I'd be turned off of her completely just for admitting how she felt. That took a lot of courage, and I think it played a part in my agreeing to give it a shot. I have no idea what would have happened if I'd refused. She did say that if at any time I asked her to stop, she would.

At first, it was a (very) long-distance situation, and that was tough (not only emotionally but financially) but now we're all in one house and that does make it easier.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Every time I've gotten together with a supposedly monogamous woman, there was some kind of recent "dumping" in the background, and eventually I was similarly dumped. We reap what we sow.

Well I met her in a small town bar not far from home
She was having second thoughts about a man who was always gone
She said the only way to get to him was a telephone
So she held on to me when she couldn't hold her own

She said I can be had, but I can't be bought
And I can be bad, Lord, if I don't get caught
But I'd rather be loved or left alone
Than be here in the middle somewhere between right and wrong

You know her kind of love keeps me coming back time after time
Just like a beautiful song I can't get off my mind
But I worry a lot about love you have to wait on
And I've got second thoughts about a woman who's always gone

- "Somewhere Between Right And Wrong" by Earl Thomas Conley

 

[The Castellan]

Last year, after 13 years of being together (8 of those married), my wife told me she wanted to be polyamorous. Needless to say, that was quite a shock.

I didn't think it was something I could handle but my love for her was strong enough that I was willing to give it a shot, as the alternative would probably have been a divorce. I figured I'd rather share her than lose her completely. Here we are, 18 months later, and we're still together. Her boyfriend lives with us, and I get along with him pretty well. (If we didn't, I don't think it would work at all.)

It's difficult, I'll admit. I had to disassociate myself from a lot of my feelings and emotions, which was a painful process. I had to teach myself that it would be OK, that if I felt a twinge of jealousy, I could just set it aside and not let it affect my day-to-day life. Unfortunately I now come across as "cold". But I think that's better than blubbering and being emotional all the time.

I don't have any interest in finding someone else for myself. For one thing, she would be very jealous of anyone else. I recognize the hypocrisy of that, but since I don't have the desire I just let it pass. So I consider myself to be a monogamous individual who's involved with someone who is polyamorous.

I'm conflicted about it in some ways. I definitely feel it's a valid choice for people and if all partners can handle it, then by all means, go for it. But there's more to handling it than simple jealousy, such as the logistics of living with / being with someone else, personality conflicts, etc. It's not something to just jump into.

Cuckold

You know, I was specifically avoiding that word, trying to be nice.

Being nice gets one no where.

 

[Daneel]

I don't believe monogamy with the same person for the rest of your life is really a natural thing.

I think I kinda love you.

Sorry, don't think I could do the polyamory thing! I suppose it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility because I have never tried it, but I have a feeling it wouldn't be my thing.

Tease!

Just kidding... I didn't think that was what you were saying anyway.

Yes, I agree; I don't believe that human beings are hardwired for monogamy -- I might go so far as to say that being with one person is downright unnatural, but I'm sure others will disagree.

I don't see why people keep bringing this up as a pro-polyamory argument, like if monogamy needs to be learned than it won't work. I mean, we're not hardwired to drive cars, either, and zooming along at 55 miles-per-hour in big metal box is pretty damn unnatural, but most people do it just fine for most of their lives.

Yeah, I probably could've phrased that better. I agree with you, which is why I said plenty of people can pull monogamy off. I personally just think, on an instinctual level, human beings are more inclined to be polyamorous than monogamous, but on an intellectual level, most people likely just don't think polyamory is practical or desirable... or they have a romanticized/idealized view of monogamy.

There are quite a few baser human impulses that we can overcome with our ability to think and reason, and the desire for polyamory is certainly one of them. Unlike some of the other base impulses, however, polyamory, done right, doesn't hurt anybody, and thus I don't think it necessarily needs to be overcome.

And I will state for the record that I'm well aware that polyamory cannot work for everyone -- even for those who practice it, it's probably fairly complicated.

 

[RJDiogenes]

The problem is that relationships aren't allowed to evolve naturally, free of the prejudices of established customs and expectations; and a lot of those customs and expectations evolved from the insecurities and jealousies that most people feel.

 

[Pingfah]

The problem is that relationships aren't allowed to evolve naturally, free of the prejudices of established customs and expectations; and a lot of those customs and expectations evolved from the insecurities and jealousies that most people feel.

Which makes those customs and expectations in some respects necessary though wouldn't you say?

Humans as a species aren't going to suddenly shed their insecurities and jealousies, so we develop a coping mechanism instead. It's more of a solution than a problem.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

In today's society of instant gratification, people are forgetting that marriage takes work and a whole lot of patience. When people decide not to put in the required effort and fall victim to their lust, calling it an alternative lifestyle or polyamory or whatever is just a cop-out to justify their behavior.

The only reason I call it anything at all is for the benefit of other people who don't understand it. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have to call it anything. My wife and I can and do have sex with other people. Big fucking deal. Our relationship isn't based on sex--it's based on love. We've been together a long time, at least as long as people our age could have conceivably been together, and we've been through things that would've broken up most relationships.

I find your implication that there's a deficiency of love involved insulting.

Now before people start coming down on me for being close minded or intolerant, let me clarify my statement. I'm sure there is excitement in having multiple partners. All I'm saying is that once you find love, you don't need anyone else.

I don't think you're closed-minded or intolerant, just ignorant on this particular subject.

Example: At about 4:30 this morning our cat woke the two of us up. We laid in bed talking far a few minutes talking sweet nothings when my wife asked me to give her a foot rub. It wasn't exciting and it was hardly sexy but when I turned around to go back to sleep, the feeling of her putting her arms over me and squeezing me tight was the best feeling in the world.

Well, that's weird, considering my wife and I do the same thing and it goes down basically the same way. But I thought poly people didn't love each other enough.

Earlier in this thread, TheLonelySquire said it best: "When a man and a woman meet and find true love they can stay together forever. It's the best thing going."

Love != sex. Why this has to be stated so directly, I have no idea, but there it is.

 

[RJDiogenes]

The problem is that relationships aren't allowed to evolve naturally, free of the prejudices of established customs and expectations; and a lot of those customs and expectations evolved from the insecurities and jealousies that most people feel.

Which makes those customs and expectations in some respects necessary though wouldn't you say?

Humans as a species aren't going to suddenly shed their insecurities and jealousies, so we develop a coping mechanism instead. It's more of a solution than a problem.

It's "a" solution, and you're no doubt right that it was necessary to the structure of society in ages when there was little insight into Human psychology or social progress. However, the fact that these behaviors have become institutionalized as customs and expectations impedes advancement of the Human condition, by empowering those insecurities and jealousies.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Love != sex.

For some people, perhaps it is, but not everyone. I know I've got some nerve saying this because I'm the big bad v-word and all that but I know I could not have sex with someone I was not in love with. My mind just doesn't work that way.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Love != sex.

For some people, perhaps it is, but not everyone. I know I've got some nerve saying this because I'm the big bad v-word and all that but I know I could not have sex with someone I was not in love with. My mind just doesn't work that way.

Well, that's fine. Why do some people feel compelled to insult others, though, who think differently?

I don't give anybody shit for being strictly monogamous. Or even a virgin. Whatever. People can live their lives how they want.

I certainly don't appreciate people coming in and saying I love my wife less than I should because I have sex with other people, though.

 

[Data Holmes]

The problem is that relationships aren't allowed to evolve naturally, free of the prejudices of established customs and expectations; and a lot of those customs and expectations evolved from the insecurities and jealousies that most people feel.

Monogamy is not a product of insecurity and jealously. It is a product of love. I love my wife with all of my being and because of that love, I have no desire to share her nor do I want to be with anyone else.

In today's society of instant gratification, people are forgetting that marriage takes work and a whole lot of patience. When people decide not to put in the required effort and fall victim to their lust, calling it an alternative lifestyle or polyamory or whatever is just a cop-out to justify their behavior.

Now before people start coming down on me for being close minded or intolerant, let me clarify my statement. I'm sure there is excitement in having multiple partners. All I'm saying is that once you find love, you don't need anyone else.

Example: At about 4:30 this morning our cat woke the two of us up. We laid in bed talking far a few minutes talking sweet nothings when my wife asked me to give her a foot rub. It wasn't exciting and it was hardly sexy but when I turned around to go back to sleep, the feeling of her putting her arms over me and squeezing me tight was the best feeling in the world.

Earlier in this thread, TheLonelySquire said it best: "When a man and a woman meet and find true love they can stay together forever. It's the best thing going."

Why does love and sex get so mixed up? Sex is a biological process hardwired into humans, same as eating, sleeping, shitting and breathing. Why is sex so different?

Where in the rule book does it say that you can only love a single person with "all your being?"

Also, I found your choice of wording here particularly interesting:

I have no desire to share her nor do I want to be with anyone else.

You have no desire to share her, and no desire to be with anyone else... It's a very selfish phrasing. I mean, you don't say that She has o desire to share you, you don't say that she doesn't want to be with another. No you operate from an all about you position. Wonder what your wife thinks in the deep, shadowy corners of her brain which she never speaks about with you because she knows you would not approve... Just saying.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Love != sex.

For some people, perhaps it is, but not everyone. I know I've got some nerve saying this because I'm the big bad v-word and all that but I know I could not have sex with someone I was not in love with. My mind just doesn't work that way.

Well, that's fine. Why do some people feel compelled to insult others, though, who think differently?

Eh? I haven't insulted anyone here, have I?

 

[Data Holmes]

For some people, perhaps it is, but not everyone. I know I've got some nerve saying this because I'm the big bad v-word and all that but I know I could not have sex with someone I was not in love with. My mind just doesn't work that way.

Well, that's fine. Why do some people feel compelled to insult others, though, who think differently?

Eh? I haven't insulted anyone here, have I?

I don't think that was directed toward you, but was agreeing with you and directed toward the one you were responding to.

 

[JustKate]

Speaking of "insulting others who think differently"...

So my husband and I were at the wedding reception of a couple we were friends with. Also at the reception was another couple, Bob and Judy (hope they aren't Trek fans ), who were also friends with the bridal couple. We knew them slightly through the bridal couple, and I should add that we'd never liked them very much, and we hadn't liked them even before we heard that they were into swinging, polyamory, whatever you want to call it (I can't remember what Bob and Judy called it, if I ever knew), and the reason was, quite simply, because Bob was a jerk.

Anyway, there we were, at a wedding reception, surrounded by friends and mothers-of-the-bride and -of-the-groom and little kids and great aunts and so on. I was actually dancing (reluctantly) with Bob when he made his...approach. This was maybe 10 years back, so I can't swear to the exact wording, but what he said was something like, "Judy and I have a bet going. She says that you and Mr. JustKate would be interested in swapping, I said you wouldn't." (I can't remember what verb he used here, but the intent - swapping sexual partners - was perfectly clear.)

To which I answered - and this I can swear to - "You win the bet, Bob."

And you know something? That wasn't enough. Nope. He asked Mr. JustKate, too (just to see if he'd get the same answer, I guess). Mr. JustKate was considerably less polite than I was, even though he, too, was hampered by the presence of friends and mothers-of-the-bride and -of-the-groom and little kids and great aunts and so on.

And even that wasn't enough. Nope. Both times, despite those firm noes, Bob justified at some length the sexual choices that he and his wife had made, which would have been bad enough - it was a wedding reception, for the love of God - except that he also felt compelled to claim that anybody who practiced monogamy did so only because they were scared. His clear implication was that the only reason to be with one man or one woman, as the case may be, was if one was just too timid to experiment. According to Bob, and this was something he said quite plainly (even to me, right there on the dance floor), everybody wants to have lots of sex with various random partners, and it was the cowardly ones who didn't do so.

Evidently, Mr. JustKate and I were cowards for not agreeing to have sex with other people.

God, he was a pig.

Anyway, I bring up that story first to point out that Bob was a pig and an idiot (his wife wasn't so bad, aside from her lousy taste in husbands), a fact that I like to bring up now and then, and second merely to demonstrate, in case anybody has any doubts, that Mr. Laser Beam is right that some members of the swinging/polyamorous community need to just drop the Unholier Than Thou act. Bob and, presumably, Judy apparently wanted greater sexual variety than they could get in a traditional marriage. OK, whatever. But daring me to be bold enough to have sex? With him? Yeah, right.

 

[sidious618]

I'm of the opinion that if it makes you happy and you're not hurting anyone else then you should do it. Then again, my views on dating in general aren't all that popular.

 

[Ceridwen]

I've been in a polyamorous relationship for two years now. My girlfriend (L.) and I met six years ago, and have been together for over five. She was my first, and fairly early on in our relationship we talked about the possibility of involving other people, since we were both nineteen and even though we were very much in love, we also knew we had very long lives ahead of us. Still, nothing came of it for a long time.

We met D. online about two and a half years ago. We weren't looking for any kind of dating thing; she was in some of the same support communities I was in, and I invited her to our house as a friend.

Our trio started kinda unceremoniously. L. and I threw a New Year's Party with some friends and D. came. We had a lot of cheap champagne, and stuff happened (which was, frankly, kinda terrifying for me, cuz I'm not a casual sex person). Still, a connection started to develop over the next few months. D. lived about three hours away at the time, but she would come visit once or twice a month, and after one of her visits L. and I had to have a talk because we both realized we were falling in love with her. A few months later, we invited her to spend the summer with us. If it worked, great! If not, she'd go back to school at the end of the summer and it would give us an easy break-off point.

We're still living together. Honestly, it works really well. There was definitely a weird moment at the beginning for me, where I realized my relationship with L. was essentially ending. I mean, we were still together, but that particular relationship, where it was just me and her, was over. Even if D. left, the relationship we built then would be a different one, not the one we had before. That was my own thing, though; it was easy enough to work through it, like any change. I don't really feel any jealousy in our relationship, and I don't think L. or D. do either. And while there are certainly issues, every relationship has those, and in a way we have it a little easier in dealing with them because it's never a one-against-one situation when trying to handle those issues (Though you do have to be careful not to seem like you're ganging up on the other person. I've been on the bad end of one of those conversations before.).

I've seen people say you can't love more than one person that way, but they seem to ignore all the situations in their own lives when they do just that. Having more than one child doesn't make you love each one a fraction of the amount you would an only child. People manage to have lots of love for their parents despite often having more than one of those. My love isn't "split" between two people, because it's not a finite quality. I have so much more to give.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

<snip>

All that proves is that anybody can be an asshole, whatever their lifestyle may be.

I haven't insulted anyone here for being monogamous. This thread has been dominated by a few viewpoints:

1. Monogamy is contrary to human nature. I don't agree with this, but I wouldn't consider it an insulting statement.
2. A poly lifestyle is not necessarily for everyone. This is my own stance on it. I think people should do whatever they are comfortable with.
3. This is the viewpoint I have a problem with: People who are poly don't love their spouses, or don't love them enough, or are interested only in instant gratification, or (insert laundry list of implied personal shortcomings here.)

I sure didn't see anyone imply monogamous people don't love their spouses sufficiently, or suffer from massive personal failings, aside from jealousy. And people at least admitted that jealousy was the issue for them.

I'm not here to convince anyone that they should or shouldn't engage in non-monogamous relationships. I'll answer any questions anyone has if they are curious about it. But I don't appreciate the implication, subtle or otherwise, that I don't love my wife enough or that there are personal failures involved. You (general "you") don't know me, so don't presume to tell me what kind of person I am.