Misogyny and Racism in STU

[Sci]

What about the young lady at the Romulan camp for Klingons? She was Romulan/Klingon hybrid.

I can't remember -- does anything preclude the possibility of her being intentionally conceived and engineered?

I was thinking about K'ehleyr but apparently her parents needed assistance:

TROI: I didn't know it was possible for a human and a Klingon to produce a child.
K'EHLEYR: Actually, the DNA is compatible, with a fair amount of help. Rather like my parents.
TROI: I know exactly what you mean. My father was human and my mother is a Betazoid.
K'EHLEYR: Really? It was the other way around for me. My mother was human. You must've grown up like I did, trapped between cultures.
TROI: I never felt trapped. I tried to experience the richness and diversity of the two worlds.
K'EHLEYR: Perhaps you got the best of each.

Good catch. Yeah, I would say that the emerging pattern is that hybrids are usually written as being the result of genetic engineering but not always.

 

[Sci]

I guess genetic modification is illegal unless you're in Starfleet? Or a Federation Diplomat. Evidence of corruption at the very top of the tree.

I just think it's an indication that Federation law draws a distinction between genetic augmentation of an existing species and the use of genetic engineering to enable viable hybrids between different species. In other words: giving a member of a species abilities that are not naturally occurring is illegal; making sure a Vulcan and a Tellarite can conceive a child who will have a decent lifespan is not.

 

[fireproof78]

I can't remember -- does anything preclude the possibility of her being intentionally conceived and engineered?

I mean, it's a bit of a dramatic reveal for Worf that she is, and given the fact that the camp supervisor was basically given the assignment as a bit of a punishment I would be surprised if she wasn't naturally conceived. Also, Klingons and Romulans somehow have compatibility in some structures that Worf could have donated to an injured Romulan in "Enemy Mine" though that doesn't indicate reproductive viability.

 

[Oddish]

I can't remember -- does anything preclude the possibility of her being intentionally conceived and

Nothing I saw, though I haven't watched Birthright II very many times. Normally I just watch the "Data dreams" bits, which are pretty good. Plus, I enjoyed watching Bashir mingling with the TNG crew.

Good catch. Yeah, I would say that the emerging pattern is that hybrids are usually written as being the result of genetic engineering but not always.

That would be my guess, too. I just think Cardassians are the exception to the rule.

I just think it's an indication that Federation law draws a distinction between genetic augmentation of an existing species and the use of genetic engineering to enable viable hybrids between different species.

Federation law is intended to preclude the creation of Superman types. That may be why, in "Prodigy"

Spoiler

Dal was allowed in Starfleet, since he was nothing of the sort.

Remember that there were no issues with using genetic engineering to correct flaws, such as when the EMH on Voyager fixed Miral's spinal cord in utero.

Also, Klingons and Romulans somehow have compatibility in some structures that Worf could have donated to an injured Romulan in "Enemy Mine" though that doesn't indicate reproductive viability.

That's a good point.

Another thing worth noting is that the issues seem to diminish with existing hybrids. For instance, Tom and B'Elanna didn't require the Doctor's assistance to conceive Miral.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Surely much of this discussion over the possibility of reproduction across species is covered by The Chase?

Based on Sela's birth it is likely also that humans could be naturally compatible with Romulans (and therefore vulcans)

 

[Sci]

Surely much of this discussion over the possibility of reproduction across species is covered by The Chase?

No. Having a common ancestor doesn't mean you're interfertile. Humans and chimpanzees are incredibly closely related but there will never be a humanzee without genetic engineering. "The Chase" is a decent excuse for why unrelated species might look similar, but it's not a useful explanation for interfertility.

Based on Sela's birth it is likely also that humans could be naturally compatible with Romulans (and therefore vulcans)

Once again, "Demons"/"Terra Prime" (ENT) firmly established that Humans and Vulcans are not interfertile without genetic intervention. And there is no reason to think Sela was unplanned; it is entirely possible that the alternate Yar was forced to undergo genetic engineering treatments to allow for a Human/Romulan (biological Vulcan) hybrid. Indeed, since "Demons"/"Terra Prime" established that genetic intervention is necessary for Humans and Vulcans to be interfertile and since "Unification III" (DIS) established that Vulcans and Romulans are the same biological species, this therefore means that Sela must have been the result of genetic intervention.

Another thing worth noting is that the issues seem to diminish with existing hybrids. For instance, Tom and B'Elanna didn't require the Doctor's assistance to conceive Miral.

Are we sure about that? It's been over twenty years since I watched "Lineage," but is there a line that precludes the possibility that B'Elanna was undergoing genetic intervention to enable her to become pregnant prior to confirming the pregnancy at the beginning of the episode?

 

[Farscape One]

"LINEAGE" never stated that Tom and B'Elanna needed help to conceive.

 

[Sci]

"LINEAGE" never stated that Tom and B'Elanna needed help to conceive.

But did it explicitly state that they didn't need help to conceive?

In other words -- does the episode actively rule that out, or does the episode just not give information one way or the other about needing help to conceive?

 

[Tuskin38]

I can't remember what episode it was, but someone said "You punch like a Ferengi", might have been Voyager or DS9.
But in-universe that sounds like a racist or offensive remark.

There's a lot of lines like that in Star Trek, and Sci-Fi in general "You punch like *species name*", "I'd rather kiss *species name*" etc. Lines that if you were to replace the alien species with a human ethnic group would be considered racist, but are played off as a joke since it's an alien not a human.

McCoy had various lines towards Spock that could be considered racist.

 

[Oddish]

Here's the quote:

EMH: "I don't mean to be indelicate but, weren't you trying to get pregnant?"
TORRES: "Well, of course. I mean, we knew we wanted a family."
PARIS: "But the odds against human-Klingon conception are so high."
EMH: "Well, apparently you've beaten the odds. May I be the first to congratulate you."

If the EMH had been facilitating conception, he wouldn't have needed to ask if B'Elanna was trying to get pregnant.

 

[Tosk]

Once again, "Demons"/"Terra Prime" (ENT) firmly established that Humans and Vulcans are not interfertile without genetic intervention.

When does it firmly establish that?

At first Phlox states that, "Vulcan and human physiology are not all that dissimilar. From the evidence I have, there's no reason to believe she's anything but perfectly healthy."

Later, he doubts himself when the baby starts to exhibit complications. "It appears my initial prognosis was incorrect. It's genetic. Her Vulcan and human DNA aren't compatible."

But in the end it turns out to be the process with which Elizabeth was created.

Trip "There's something else. I spoke with Phlox. It turns out there was a flaw in the technique that Paxton's doctors used in the cloning process. Human DNA and Vulcan DNA, Phlox says there's no medical reason why they can't combine. So if a Vulcan and a human ever decided to have a child, it'd probably be okay."

"Probably be okay" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for the combo, but it's not (IMO, and unless I missed something) "firmly established that Humans and Vulcans are not interfertile without genetic intervention."

 

[Farscape One]

I can't remember what episode it was, but someone said "You punch like a Ferengi", might have been Voyager or DS9.
But in-universe that sounds like a racist or offensive remark.

There's a lot of lines like that in Star Trek, and Sci-Fi in general "You punch like *species name*", "I'd rather kiss *species name*" etc. Lines that if you were to replace the alien species with a human ethnic group would be considered racist, but are played off as a joke since it's an alien not a human.

McCoy had various lines towards Spock that could be considered racist.

The 'you punch like a Ferengi' line was by Kim to Paris when they were fake fighting in the Mess Hall in "TSUNKATSE".

 

[Gul Sengosts]

I can't remember what episode it was, but someone said "You punch like a Ferengi", might have been Voyager or DS9.
But in-universe that sounds like a racist or offensive remark.

There's a lot of lines like that in Star Trek, and Sci-Fi in general "You punch like *species name*", "I'd rather kiss *species name*" etc. Lines that if you were to replace the alien species with a human ethnic group would be considered racist, but are played off as a joke since it's an alien not a human.

McCoy had various lines towards Spock that could be considered racist.

Yeah, Star Trek likes to be all "racism is a thing of the past" when it comes to humans and pat itself on the back for how enlightened it is, but when it comes to aliens, bigotry and racism is much of the time just accepted as normal. The Ferengi are a great example, frequently being disparaged on based on their ethnicity and it's just played for the laughs like there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, the prejudice is much of the time even validated because they're depicted as being exactly that.

There's an underlying theme here that it's all ok if it doesn't offend real people. But it doesn't actually question the mindset behind racism, in fact it often reinforces it, just externalised to non-humans. Racism reduces entire groups of people to some monolithic lesser other, and Star Trek frequently does exactly that with its monolithic peoples of walking stereotypes. It is anti-racist by means of including all humans in the in-group, but the underlying mindset of reducing the out-group is most of the time not challenged, quite the contrary.

If Trek is serious about being anti-racist, I think it should question this mindset itself (it does on occasion, but most of the time it doesn't). People think they're not racist, but still they often reduce other peoples to stereotypes, seeing little wrong with it because "well it's true, isn't it?". So when Trek keeps reaffirming its in-universe stereotypes, it often reaffirms stereotypical thinking itself.

What exacerbates this is that many alien species aren't just alien, but racially coded in a way that reflects real peoples. The Klingons for example are racially charged with varying shades of Black/Brown/Asian, so the othering and stereotyping of the aliens feeds on and plays into the othering and stereotyping of real-world people. The Kazon being "inspired" by African American street gangs makes their depiction as unsalvageable primitive brutes pretty problematic. The Ferengi are basically a species designed around antisemitic stereotypes. If Trek wants to be anti-racist, it's not doing a great job here.

As for McCoy... his "pointy-eared" insults may not hit real-world people, but essentially he uses ethnic slurs about his facial features. Imagine he did the same to a person of colour. Thankfully this doesn't happen, but it is the kind of language he's using. It's not a good look.

 

[Sci]

Yeah, Star Trek likes to be all "racism is a thing of the past" when it comes to humans and pat itself on the back for how enlightened it is, but when it comes to aliens, bigotry and racism is much of the time just accepted as normal. The Ferengi are a great example, frequently being disparaged on based on their ethnicity and it's just played for the laughs like there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, the prejudice is much of the time even validated because they're depicted as being exactly that.

There's an underlying theme here that it's all ok if it doesn't offend real people. But it doesn't actually question the mindset behind racism, in fact it often reinforces it, just externalised to non-humans. Racism reduces entire groups of people to some monolithic lesser other, and Star Trek frequently does exactly that with its monolithic peoples of walking stereotypes. It is anti-racist by means of including all humans in the in-group, but the underlying mindset of reducing the out-group is most of the time not challenged, quite the contrary.

If Trek is serious about being anti-racist, I think it should question this mindset itself (it does on occasion, but most of the time it doesn't). People think they're not racist, but still they often reduce other peoples to stereotypes, seeing little wrong with it because "well it's true, isn't it?". So when Trek keeps reaffirming its in-universe stereotypes, it often reaffirms stereotypical thinking itself.

What exacerbates this is that many alien species aren't just alien, but racially coded in a way that reflects real peoples. The Klingons for example are racially charged with varying shades of Black/Brown/Asian, so the othering and stereotyping of the aliens feeds on and plays into the othering and stereotyping of real-world people. The Kazon being "inspired" by African American street gangs makes their depiction as primitive misogynist brutes pretty problematic. The Ferengi are basically a species designed around antisemitic stereotypes. If Trek wants to be anti-racist, it's not doing a great job here.

As for McCoy... his "pointy-eared" insults may not hit real-world people, but essentially he uses ethnic slurs about his facial features. Imagine he did the same to a person of colour. Thankfully this doesn't happen, but it is the kind of language he's using. It's not a good look.

100% this.

 

[fireproof78]

As usual, Trek's reputation far exceeds it's reality.

 

[Tosk]

I'm being very generous to Trek in general here, but one might argue that speaking in that way in their universe doesn't have the same power that it does now.

Lincoln "What a charming negress. ...Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some used that term as a description of property."
Uhura "But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words."

That's not to excuse it, but maybe to explain it in-universe. Either way, it's a pretty weak point I'm making.

 

[Timewalker]

I'm being very generous to Trek in general here, but one might argue that speaking in that way in their universe doesn't have the same power that it does now.

Lincoln "What a charming negress. ...Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some used that term as a description of property."
Uhura "But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words."

That's not to excuse it, but maybe to explain it in-universe. Either way, it's a pretty weak point I'm making.

I take it you've never read the prose adaptation by James Blish. He must have used an earlier script, since the exchange between Uhura and Lincoln employed some reverse racism. Uhura tells Lincoln that she feels that her coloring is much lovelier and "superior to yours and the Captain's" (paraphrase as it's been ages since I read it).

That floored me. I read many of the Blish adaptations before seeing the episodes and thank goodness the finished thing on TV didn't go there with Uhura.

It floored Lincoln in the book, too. He was taken aback by her words and opined that there was still a way to go, before this issue was resolved.

 

[Guy Gardener]

TORRES: Careful, Harry. Legend has it that the Tattooed Terror has put more men in Sickbay than the Ankaran flu.
PARIS: Yeah, you wouldn't want to bruise your clarinet fingers.
KIM: Hey, you want to go a few rounds, or all you all talk?
PARIS: Any time, any place.
KIM: Oh, you punch like a Ferengi.

Tsunkatse.

The Guards had been guarding Prisoners for Decades.

HR has it's work cut out.

I thought "Remain Klingon" was suggesting that Klingons like to assimilate cultures with their double knobs, like the Borg? They see a trait they want imbued into the next generation, so 20 million klingons bang a billion aliens, without consent, and and then a year later they have 3 billion Klingons who can see in the dark.

Miral Paris was a Prophecy baby.

She had to be born, no matter how weak Tom's sploodge was.

What about the before and after timeline where B'Elanna dies in the Year of Hell? The plague Klingons from Prophecy are %%cked.

 

[Shawnster]

I can't remember -- does anything preclude the possibility of her being intentionally conceived and engineered?

Only reasonable doubt. Ba'el is the offspring between a Klingon prisoner and a Romulan captor. If it took more than simple biological reproduction to create the offspring, that is a lot of time, effort, and resources devoted to such a medical project. It is not reasonable to believe that all that effort would be undertaken to create another prisoner. It is more reasonable that Ba'el would be artificially conceived with a greater purpose in mind such as a genetic experiment that would be created and studied in a lab at a location other than some remote prison that even the Romulans seem to have forgotten about or, at least, ignored.

It's more reasonable an artificially created Romulan/Klingon hybrid would be serving the Star Empire in some military/espionage assignment or dissected and studied in some research lab. The reasonable conclusion for a Romulan/Klingon offspring of a prisoner and her captor to likewise be in the same prison is that her conception and birth was as natural as any traditional biological reproduction.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

If I remember right, Blish spun that in terms of individuals cherishing every aspect of who they are, and also cherishing the diversity of others.