Minutia Question re: Defiant's Weapons

[Cyke101]

As far as my knowledge of Trek goes, only the newer starships have quantum torpedoes:

Defiant, Akira, Sovereign, and Prometheus class starships.

Intrepids were supposed to have as well, but Voyager didn't need them for its first mission so never got them. Towards the end of the war, I heard Galaxy and Excelsior class ships were refitted to fire Quantum torpedoes.

Now for the Enterprise-E, Sovereign-class ships are heavily armed with both quantum and photon torpedoes. However Quantums are only fireable from the underside of the saucer where the Captains yacht is. Photons are in the engineering sections under the deflector dish and in the aft behind the saucer. You see the Enterprise fire quantums a lot in First Contact and the Troi scene in Nemesis, and you get a glimpse of aft Photon Torpedo fire in Insurrection and Nemesis. Forward Photon firing can be seen in Nemesis as well.

The Defiant only had quantum torpedoes as far as I know. Only Quantums were ever fired as far as I can remember in DS9. The Defiant also had one heavy phaser array in the dorsal section of the ship.

Yeah, I can't remember any Akiras ever firing Quantum Torpedoes.

I'd also like to point out that the USS Lakota, an older Excelsior-class vessel, was outfitted with a Quantum Torpedo launcher as part of its weapons upgrade and really could have put a hurtin' on the Defiant. I don't think the tech is restricted to just newer ships, but newer ships could perhaps be better equipped overall to handle it.

Lastly, in Tears of the Prophets, we see Quantum Torpedoes destroying a weapons platform early into the battle. It took three or four torpedoes, and they hit the platform one at a time, as opposed to two hitting at a time like the Defiant normally fires. Since the Defiant doesn't usually fire forward weapons one at a time, I don't believe she fired those shots. I really want to see what ship fired those damn torpedoes!

 

[Lindley]

Actually, there's an on-screen reference to the Starship Prometheus on DS9 ("Second Sight", I think) which is very much *not* Prometheus-class. So, since the Prometheus-class would not have been named after a ship still in service, one can assume that R&D on the class didn't start until at *least* DS9 season 2. Since that's only 3 years before First Contact, one must presume that the Sovereign-class design at least began development earlier than the Prometheus-class design.

 

[Major Chord]

Maybe Q-torp launchers are backwards compatable with P-torps. Perhaps Q-torps produce more stress on the launch tube or something when launched, and therefore Q-torp tubes must be built out of different materials, or with different saftey systems or whatnot. P-torps could still be fired through them, as the reinforced/upgraded tube design can easily handle the stress produced by a P-torp. Or, the two torpedoes could be different sizes, and the Q-torp launcher has the ability to reconfigure itself to launch P-torps. I'm assuming that the Q-torps are a bit larger than P-torps for this theory, which would allow the smaller P-torps to be launched from the larger Q-tubes, perhaps encased in some sort of sabot. Q-torps could not be launched from older style P-tubes though, simply because they won't fit.

I'd imagine that this "multi-size" torpedo launchers would be fitted on later ships of already quantum capable classes, or newbuilds/refits of older classes. The Defiant and other ships equipped with Q-torps in their infancy would probably have tubes dedicated to Q-torps, and tubes dedicated to P-torps, as the first system was still relatively new, and may still have had bugs. In the case of a failure in an early Q-torp tube, it would have been a good idea to have dedicated tubes for the older P-torps, so that the ship would not be left without a hard-hitting secondary weapon.

On a somewhat related note, may there be an in-universe explanation for the look of a fired Photon torpedo in ST: Nemesis? It looks completely different than any P-torps we've previously seen, lacking the "streamers" of light around the central glowing blob of light. It looks almost like a disrupter bolt, or a pulse phaser round.

 

[Timo]

Instead of launcher troubles, it might be that q-torps require very special arming systems. It would be a bit like firing modern bullets out of a musket: with enough black powder packed in, they'd fly out all right, but they would be inert - they wouldn't do what they were designed to do.

P-torps probably require very complex arming machinery in the loaders for safely injecting the antimatter. But q-torp loaders might have something even more complex, perhaps a giant flying wheel that makes the universe spin locally to generate a zero-point energy anomaly.

Certainly we shouldn't think that p-torps and q-torps are mere inert projectiles like today's bullets, grenades or missiles that can be stored near-indefinitely on a shelf, then shoved into the launcher and fired off.

Actually, there's an on-screen reference to the Starship Prometheus on DS9 ("Second Sight", I think) which is very much *not* Prometheus-class. So, since the Prometheus-class would not have been named after a ship still in service, one can assume that R&D on the class didn't start until at *least* DS9 season 2.

I'd instead argue that the multicomponent prototype remained nameless for the first decade of her life, what with being so top secret and all. Or, knowing these engineer folks, she was burdened with a truly embarrassing in-joke name until the project went over-the-counter, at which point Starfleet quickly renamed her after something more dignified.

This would also help explain why the VOY ship has a 59000 range hull number when many other TNG era registries seem to work roughly chronologically and are up to the mid- to high 70000s at the very least by the time we first see the multipart starship. The project might be ages-old, gaining official status and actual commissioning (plus the new registry seen on computer readouts, as opposed to the hull paint) only fairly recently.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

To my knowledge the Prometheus was launcher AFTER the Sovereign class.
The Sovereign class (more notably the Enterprise-E) was in service in 2372 if I'm not mistaken (and as Geordy stated, they were in space for a year).

The Prometheus was first seen on screen in mid/late 4th season of Voyager (which was according to the star-dates about year after FC events).

I don't think the Prometheus was a design that came before the Sovereign as it was classified 'top-secret' when we first saw it.
Extremely well armed with regenerative shields, ablative armor, etc ...
Unlikely.
This thing was quite possibly put into service quite recently.

Also ... there is nothing indicating the Quantum torpedoes would only be carried by the Defiant and Enterprise-E.
Sure when those 2 ships were first getting their space legs and way around the fleet, the torpedoes would be sparse ... but undoubtedly they'd be in wide fleet use at the end of the Dominion War and quite probably after the war ended.

What we do know however is that the Defiant, Sovereign, Intrepid and Prometheus classes were put into service after TNG (ergo, they're new designs).
The Akira class ... well nothing was really stated about it ... same goes for the Steamrunners, and Sabre class ships.
The Sabre and Akira's seem to have similar nacelle designs, and as such could have been made in the same era.
I wouldn't put it past SF to have made the Akira's, Sabre and Steamrunner class ships with the Galaxy class.

 

[Dayton3]

The U.S.S. Lakota the modified Excelsior class ship is "Paradise Lost" IIRC was carrying quantum torpedos as well as upgraded phasers. They were mentioned because the admiral specifically ordered her captain to use them against the Defiant.

It was specifically stated that the Defiant was using Quantum torpedoes in several episodes including "The Search pt. 1", "The Defiant" and various others.

 

[Timo]

Also ... there is nothing indicating the Quantum torpedoes would only be carried by the Defiant and Enterprise-E.

...Except that, in the multi-hundred-starship battles of DS9 or ST:FC, only these two vessels are ever actually seen firing the whitish things. And yes, the heavily modified Lakota is specifically said to be carrying those, but not shown firing them.

Perhaps the q-torps didn't quite pan out, as Starfleet apparently didn't want to refit any other ships the Lakota way? Perhaps they are something of a silver bullet in a war where numbers were more important than quality, and thus lead bullets were preferable to silver?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hanover Fiste]

The vague consensus of image and dialogue I've settled on has the Defiant equipped with forward quantum torpedo launchers and pulse phaser emitters, aft photon torpedo launchers, and dorsal/ventral beam emitters.

 

[Major Chord]

...Except that, in the multi-hundred-starship battles of DS9 or ST:FC, only these two vessels are ever actually seen firing the whitish things. And yes, the heavily modified Lakota is specifically said to be carrying those, but not shown firing them.
....

Timo Saloniemi

Other than the Defiant's quantum torpedoes, and one instance of a Glaxy Class firing photons, I don't think we really saw Federation ships use torpedoes during the huge fleet battle scenes.

 

[nx1701g]

^ We saw a few Excelsiors and Mirandas using torpedoes in a couple of the fleet battles.

 

[Sisko4Life]

Orignally Posted by Timo

Where does this information come from? None of it is ever mentioned on screen...

From what we actually see, Akira could easily be a decades-old design, largely dedicated to exploration, while the Prometheus was launched six years before the Sovereign and simply underwent extensive testing, and Starfleet never fitted ablative armor on any starship (even though Sisko personally saw to it that his very own prototype got this treatment).

The Akira class IS a warship of new design built around the time of the Defiant. It says on every Star Trek Reference site and in every Star Trek game it is classified as a battlecruiser. It was ONLY shown on screen in combat situations. You can see 3 distinct Akira's in the Battle of Sector 001, a handful in the Battle of Bajor, 1 getting destroyed in the First Battle of Chin'toka, and a couple to retake the Prometheus. It only shows up in battles, more importantly it was only shown after TNG. This is hardly speculation.

The Prometheus-class on the other hand was specifically classified as a tactical vessel in "Message in a Bottle." Why else would it be hijacked by the Rommies? And it was constructed after the Sovereign class. The USS Prometheus was the prototype, which was lauched just prior to the episode "Message inn a Bottle".

Although they are never shown firing Quantums, I am 100% sure the Prometheus had them on board, and theres a good chance Akira-classes were eventually equipped to fire them since they were one of Starfleet's few combat specific ships.

 

[Photon]

The Prometheus did fire a torpedoe and it looked like a photon. It was where the 2 Holo-Docs were screwing around on the bridge and Dick fired a torpedoe that hit a Defiant class.. It looked amberish-orange. Perhaps the QT's weren't easily fired from the Prometheus by a novice

 

[Timo]

The Akira class IS a warship of new design built around the time of the Defiant. It says on every Star Trek Reference site and in every Star Trek game it is classified as a battlecruiser.

But nothing of the sort is suggested on screen. The design features the rounded, fluid motifs of the Galaxy and Nebula, along with the whitish paint job, rather than the angular steel-blue thing going on with ships known to be more recent. The low registries are but a bonus that helps support the theory that Akira and Nebula would be contemporaries.

It only shows up in battles, more importantly it was only shown after TNG.

The Constellation class was only shown "after" ST6:TUC. It's still clearly a design from the TOS movie era, though.

And the Nova class only shows up in battles, too. Doesn't change the dialogue fact that she was designed for planetary surverys.

Before the big battles of ST:FC and DS9, we just plain don't see other Starfleet designs besides the hero ship and a select few random examples. The Nebula is only seen thrice or so in TNG; so is the Ambassador.

The USS Prometheus was the prototype, which was lauched just prior to the episode "Message in a Bottle".

No launch date was given in the episode. All we know is that the ship is a prototype (much like the Defiant was through four years of service) and that the multivector thing hasn't been tested yet. Or is it merely that the Romulan hijackers haven't tested the multivector thing yet?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sisko4Life]

Most ship classes aren't really described on-screen. They never mention anything about Steamrunner, Sabre, New Orleans, etc. on any of the episodes yet they are seen on screen in fleet engagements. But I do know that most of these vessesl including the Akira class were only seen in Dominion war battles and Sector 001 because they were new combat orientated vessels to fight the Borg. You didn't see a fleet of Excelsior, Miranda, Ambassador, and Nova class starships fighting the cube now did you? Starfleet's long range exploration duties were left to Intrepid, Galaxy, Nebula, and Sovereign class vessels because of their advanced equipment.

 

[Timo]

You didn't see a fleet of Excelsior, Miranda, Ambassador, and Nova class starships fighting the cube now did you?

Umm, Miranda, Excelsior and Ambassador played star roles in the fight against the Cube in "Emissary". Even an Oberth made an appearance there, showing us that Starfleet does not pick and choose only the deadliest dedicated warships when going against the Borg.

Correspondingly, there were Mirandas and Nebulas seen prominently in the Borg fight of ST:FC, and the Oberth model supposedly made an appearance in the far background as well (along with the Millennium Falcon).

In defensive warfare, Starfleet always seems to go for the "and five kitchen sinks, too" approach. In offensive action, the fleets of DS9 have featured an even mix of types, including both Galaxy, Miranda, Akira and Steamrunner and fully allowing for the interpretation that they are all jack-of-all-trades designs - or even ace-of-all-trades, in the case of the Galaxy which seems to get all the toughest jobs.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lindley]

Starfleet seems to waste no time naming new ships after old destroyed ones. The Farragut was declared destroyed in "Nor the Battle to the Strong", yet apparently another one is up and about by "Chrysalis", two years later. Downgraded from Nebula to Excelsior class, even, if Memory Alpha is be believed.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Starfleet seems to waste no time naming new ships after old destroyed ones.

I imagine that does wonders for crew morale.

 

[Cyke101]

Whoops, nevermind.

 

[Cyke101]

In defensive warfare, Starfleet always seems to go for the "and five kitchen sinks, too" approach. In offensive action, the fleets of DS9 have featured an even mix of types, including both Galaxy, Miranda, Akira and Steamrunner and fully allowing for the interpretation that they are all jack-of-all-trades designs - or even ace-of-all-trades, in the case of the Galaxy which seems to get all the toughest jobs.

Timo Saloniemi

In my mind, I chalked that up to Starfleet separating fleets into squadrons or similar groups, where each group would have one or two big guns (the Galaxy, for example) as heavy fire and/or draw enemy fire, a few mid-level ships (like the Akira or Excelsior), and several smaller ships (Sabres or Mirandas) that would act as cannon fodder/support. There's nothing quite on screen to support that, other than how fleet formations fly in scenes like a Call to Arms or the beginning of Operation: Return, and even then I feel that my assertions would be shaky.

That and maybe I've been playing too much Fire Emblem lately...?

 

[Sisko4Life]

Your assumption is correct. In Sacrifice of Angels, Galaxy class vessels were the "heavy guns" and Sisko ordered them as "Galaxy Wings" and referred to the Akira and Excelsiors as "Cruisers." The attack fighters were the small ships. Star Trek makes several references to the larger ships such as Galaxy-class and Sovereigns being classified as "battleships" even if Starfleet never names them that. Cruisers were most of Starfleet's vessels including Intrepid, Akira, Nebula, Excelsior, and most other mid-sized ships.

Umm, Miranda, Excelsior and Ambassador played star roles in the fight against the Cube in "Emissary".

That was the first Borg Cube. All of the later models such as Steamrunner, Sabre, and Akira class were featured extensively against the second Cube but were ALL absent from the first for the simple fact that they were designed to replace the older starship designs.

As for the Akira class, most information on it is sketchy, but like Steamrunner and Sabre classes, it is never seen on screen for any other purposes but combat. Nearly every other Starfleet ship has taken on some sort of other role such as diplomacy or exploration.

Even the creator of the Akira himself describes his design :


"This was my gunship/battlecruiser/aircraft carrier. It has 15 torpedo launchers and two shuttlebays - one in front, with three doors, and one in the back. I really got into it with this one, with the whole idea that the front bay would be the launching bay, and then to return they'd come into the back, because they'd be protected by the rest of the ship."
(taken from Memory Alpha)

The bottom line is that after Wolf 359, Starfleet took a different approach with starship construction and some of the later vessels seen during the Dominion War did in fact have a combat orientated approach.