Minutia Question re: Defiant's Weapons
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I thought we had seen it regular photons plenty of times, but perhaps I'm wrong. It's been a while since I've gotten a chance to see a DS9 episode. But if quantums look like the ones the Ent-E fired at the Phoenix in FC, then I don't remember seeing them shot from the Defiant on a regular basis.
If I'm not mistaken, in the episode where Tom Riker steals the Defiant, he orders photon torpedoes to be fired. I may be wrong about the exact episode, but I do distinctly remember someone giving the order to fire photons from the Defiant. That was only once I think, and all the other times had Defiant using Quantum Torpedoes. As for the the Quamtums looking different than they did in First Contact, I'd chalk it up to a different VFX. Fired photon torpedoes look different between the TNG era series, and sometimes the effects differ between episodes of the same series, and are still assumed to be photons. So, it's probably safe to assume that the silver-ey pulses that the Defiant fires ( which have been shown after the order to fire quantums was given) are in-fact quantum torpedoes.
The only instance I can clearly recall of the Defiant firing quantum torpedoes was in For the Uniform, when it's specifically mentioned - Sisko asks Worf to prepare two quantum torpedoes - and seen with the white, slightly elogated torpedo effect.
Although, did we ever see the Enterprise-E fire quantum torpedoes outside of First Contact? I can't recall them being fired - at least effects-wise - in either Insurrection or Nemesis.
Although, did we ever see the Enterprise-E fire quantum torpedoes outside of First Contact? I can't recall them being fired - at least effects-wise - in either Insurrection or Nemesis.
They were fired in Nemesis, though not mentioned by name, they were fired in the scene where Troi finds the Scimitar telepathically, and the Enterprise throws everything they have at them.
The Defiant has also used standard beam phasers on one occasion, although I can't remember in which episode. The Defiant fired weapons using the same effect as " For The Uniform", on several other occasions. "The Changing Face of Evil" comes to mind. I believe the Defiant fired them at and destroyed a Breen cruiser before she herself was immobilized and destroyed.
The Defiant has also used standard beam phasers on one occasion, although I can't remember in which episode. The Defiant fired weapons using the same effect as " For The Uniform", on several other occasions. "The Changing Face of Evil" comes to mind. I believe the Defiant fired them at and destroyed a Breen cruiser before she herself was immobilized and destroyed.
Considering that the Defiant model was built without paying attention to how the standard pieces of TNG-era technology normally look, it's amazing how consistently the VFX people were able to associate a specific effect with a specific location and a specific piece of dialogue.
Every time the ship is seen firing the white-hot weapons that in "Defiant" are called quantum torpedoes, they emerge from the "cheek" fairings well inboard of the warp engine cowlings. Every time the pulse phasers fire, they come from the warp engine cowlings, where there are two obvious gunbarrels per cowling that serve as the emitters. Additional (and probably weaker) steerable beam weapons are seen firing from the top of the hull at the center of the top circle in "Paradise Lost" and from the round hole in the navigational deflector in a couple of episodes - both plausible as such - and are consistently the same amber "Federation phaser" color.
Also, all "guest" Starfleet vessels fire amber beams and reddish torpedoes in DS9 and VOY as well as in the newer movies, although the torpedo color really shifts to rather yellowish in VOY.
Against this level of consistency, we might accept that we see the ship fire a regular photon torpedo exactly once. In "Paradise Lost", when the Defiant makes the first run against the Lakota, the last shots exchanged are a ventral phaser beam from the Lakota at the butt of the Defiant and a single retribution from the aft torpedo tube of the Defiant. That single torpedo is red in color, like the standard photon torpedoes elsewhere in TNG era Starfleet.
We never see the Defiant fire torpedoes of other color aft, even though dialogue specifies that aft torpedoes are being fired off camera in a couple of eps ("Way of the Warrior", "The Die is Cast"). And we never see the ship fire torpedoes other than quantums forward, from locations other than the cheek fairings. So we could well argue that the ship has forward launchers designed for q-torps and a single aft tube designed for standard torps, and that the ammunition between the two is not interchangeable.
Timo Saloniemi
Every time the ship is seen firing the white-hot weapons that in "Defiant" are called quantum torpedoes, they emerge from the "cheek" fairings well inboard of the warp engine cowlings. Every time the pulse phasers fire, they come from the warp engine cowlings, where there are two obvious gunbarrels per cowling that serve as the emitters. Additional (and probably weaker) steerable beam weapons are seen firing from the top of the hull at the center of the top circle in "Paradise Lost" and from the round hole in the navigational deflector in a couple of episodes - both plausible as such - and are consistently the same amber "Federation phaser" color.
Also, all "guest" Starfleet vessels fire amber beams and reddish torpedoes in DS9 and VOY as well as in the newer movies, although the torpedo color really shifts to rather yellowish in VOY.
Against this level of consistency, we might accept that we see the ship fire a regular photon torpedo exactly once. In "Paradise Lost", when the Defiant makes the first run against the Lakota, the last shots exchanged are a ventral phaser beam from the Lakota at the butt of the Defiant and a single retribution from the aft torpedo tube of the Defiant. That single torpedo is red in color, like the standard photon torpedoes elsewhere in TNG era Starfleet.
We never see the Defiant fire torpedoes of other color aft, even though dialogue specifies that aft torpedoes are being fired off camera in a couple of eps ("Way of the Warrior", "The Die is Cast"). And we never see the ship fire torpedoes other than quantums forward, from locations other than the cheek fairings. So we could well argue that the ship has forward launchers designed for q-torps and a single aft tube designed for standard torps, and that the ammunition between the two is not interchangeable.
Timo Saloniemi
As far as my knowledge of Trek goes, only the newer starships have quantum torpedoes:
Defiant, Akira, Sovereign, and Prometheus class starships.
Intrepids were supposed to have as well, but Voyager didn't need them for its first mission so never got them. Towards the end of the war, I heard Galaxy and Excelsior class ships were refitted to fire Quantum torpedoes.
Now for the Enterprise-E, Sovereign-class ships are heavily armed with both quantum and photon torpedoes. However Quantums are only fireable from the underside of the saucer where the Captains yacht is. Photons are in the engineering sections under the deflector dish and in the aft behind the saucer. You see the Enterprise fire quantums a lot in First Contact and the Troi scene in Nemesis, and you get a glimpse of aft Photon Torpedo fire in Insurrection and Nemesis. Forward Photon firing can be seen in Nemesis as well.
The Defiant only had quantum torpedoes as far as I know. Only Quantums were ever fired as far as I can remember in DS9. The Defiant also had one heavy phaser array in the dorsal section of the ship.
Defiant, Akira, Sovereign, and Prometheus class starships.
Intrepids were supposed to have as well, but Voyager didn't need them for its first mission so never got them. Towards the end of the war, I heard Galaxy and Excelsior class ships were refitted to fire Quantum torpedoes.
Now for the Enterprise-E, Sovereign-class ships are heavily armed with both quantum and photon torpedoes. However Quantums are only fireable from the underside of the saucer where the Captains yacht is. Photons are in the engineering sections under the deflector dish and in the aft behind the saucer. You see the Enterprise fire quantums a lot in First Contact and the Troi scene in Nemesis, and you get a glimpse of aft Photon Torpedo fire in Insurrection and Nemesis. Forward Photon firing can be seen in Nemesis as well.
The Defiant only had quantum torpedoes as far as I know. Only Quantums were ever fired as far as I can remember in DS9. The Defiant also had one heavy phaser array in the dorsal section of the ship.
Only the Defiant and Sovereign types have been shown or said to be firing them, really. And both seem to require a special dedicated launcher for it; perhaps standard torpedo launchers won't suffice?
The Akira shoots out the same sort of reddish-yellowish fireballs as anybody else in ST:FC, DS9 and VOY "Message in a Bottle". The Prometheus is only shown fighting with her phasers until the holodocs ask for a single torpedo, and that torpedo is again the usual reddish-yellowish type rather than the customary whitish-bluish for quantums.
Timo Saloniemi
I was just wondering whether we should start speculating that the paired cheek launchers are for quantums while a separate single forward launcher is capable of firing standard torpedoes.
After all, in "Rejoined", the round thing in the middle of the navigational deflector is seen capable of firing a probe, and the ship also fires probes from somewhere in "Starship Down". (Then again, we also see a phaser beam emerge from the middle of the deflector in "Starship Down"!)
This would also help us accept those MSD drawings that show a launcher under the jaw of the ship even though all witnessed torpedo firings are from the cheeks. The launcher at the jaw could be considered "inferior" because it can only spit out standard photons and probes while quantums at the cheeks pack so much more punch.
Timo Saloniemi
After all, in "Rejoined", the round thing in the middle of the navigational deflector is seen capable of firing a probe, and the ship also fires probes from somewhere in "Starship Down". (Then again, we also see a phaser beam emerge from the middle of the deflector in "Starship Down"!)
This would also help us accept those MSD drawings that show a launcher under the jaw of the ship even though all witnessed torpedo firings are from the cheeks. The launcher at the jaw could be considered "inferior" because it can only spit out standard photons and probes while quantums at the cheeks pack so much more punch.
Timo Saloniemi
That particular episode has been chalked up to the VFX guys making a mistake, I believe.
Given that the whole exchange is narrated as a flashback, I suppose if you need a canon reason for it, you can just assume it's either down to Worf's memory being wrong, or the 'alternative' events put forward by the Klingon prosecution...
It would be a bit odd if she weren't. But then again, she is a bit odd for a starship...
From what we've seen so far, it would seem at least possible and perhaps reasonable to claim that quantum-warhead torpedoes cannot be easily fired from standard launchers. After all, the only two ship types known to operate those are equipped with nonstandard launchers which, apart from having exotic-looking muzzles, are never actually seen firing other type of ordnance besides q-torps.
It is possible that this weapon type has limitations, however, as both those ship types are also equipped with other launchers that explicitly fire p-torps. Perhaps q-torps need the weaker p-torps for "delicate" work - or perhaps q-torps are the precision weapons, and crude p-torps are carried as a backup for "carpet bombing" tasks.
One possibility is that q-torps are incapable of warp, perhaps because the q-warhead takes up so much space that warp engines cannot be fitted within the standard casing. But if q-torps have special launchers anyway, why not build them with larger than standard casings...? At any rate, we haven't seen q-torps used at warp yet.
It is also possible that q-torps are significantly weaker than p-torps, but/and because of that ideal weapons for use at close proximity to the target. They'd thus be right up the Defiant alley, as that vessel tends to fight at point-blank ranges anyway. Most of the larger starships wouldn't bother, then.
Timo Saloniemi
From what we've seen so far, it would seem at least possible and perhaps reasonable to claim that quantum-warhead torpedoes cannot be easily fired from standard launchers. After all, the only two ship types known to operate those are equipped with nonstandard launchers which, apart from having exotic-looking muzzles, are never actually seen firing other type of ordnance besides q-torps.
It is possible that this weapon type has limitations, however, as both those ship types are also equipped with other launchers that explicitly fire p-torps. Perhaps q-torps need the weaker p-torps for "delicate" work - or perhaps q-torps are the precision weapons, and crude p-torps are carried as a backup for "carpet bombing" tasks.
One possibility is that q-torps are incapable of warp, perhaps because the q-warhead takes up so much space that warp engines cannot be fitted within the standard casing. But if q-torps have special launchers anyway, why not build them with larger than standard casings...? At any rate, we haven't seen q-torps used at warp yet.
It is also possible that q-torps are significantly weaker than p-torps, but/and because of that ideal weapons for use at close proximity to the target. They'd thus be right up the Defiant alley, as that vessel tends to fight at point-blank ranges anyway. Most of the larger starships wouldn't bother, then.
Timo Saloniemi
I wonder if maybe they had photons on occasion due to supply line disruptions during the Dominion War? IF torpedoes are something difficult to replicate for any reason, that could explain it.
When Ross and Sisko send Dax off on the unseen mission in "Behind the Lines", there's dialog about stocking the Defiant with extra photons.
The novelization of that episode additionally claimed that they were stuffing the Defiant to the gills with photons for that mission, and installing special launchers to spit them out nearly as fast as pulsed phasers. There was a concern that the ship could be destroyed if one of the launchers jammed.
The novelization of that episode additionally claimed that they were stuffing the Defiant to the gills with photons for that mission, and installing special launchers to spit them out nearly as fast as pulsed phasers. There was a concern that the ship could be destroyed if one of the launchers jammed.
True, but Prometheus-Class and Akira Class are warships like the Defiant used for combat only purposes. In fact, it is strictly states that the Prometheus incorporated ALL of the tactical advances from Defiant and Sovereign class vessels, as it was lauched a year after the Enterprise-E was. Akira-class vessels are rarely seen on screen, but are designated to be warships constructed after Defiant class vessels. It is not specified, but "Dominion-era" ships such as the Sovereign, Prommy, and Akira class were all supposed to be outfitted with the latest tactical advances, including Quantum torpedoes, Regenerative shields, Ablative hull armor, etc.
Where does this information come from? None of it is ever mentioned on screen...
From what we actually see, Akira could easily be a decades-old design, largely dedicated to exploration, while the Prometheus was launched six years before the Sovereign and simply underwent extensive testing, and Starfleet never fitted ablative armor on any starship (even though Sisko personally saw to it that his very own prototype got this treatment).
Timo Saloniemi
From what we actually see, Akira could easily be a decades-old design, largely dedicated to exploration, while the Prometheus was launched six years before the Sovereign and simply underwent extensive testing, and Starfleet never fitted ablative armor on any starship (even though Sisko personally saw to it that his very own prototype got this treatment).
Timo Saloniemi
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