Mint frosting...

[Kobayshi Maru]

Let me get this straight. So data's... system detects these... phased creatures... and identifies them as a problem... Data's... system also thinks up a way to destroy them... But instead of Data being aware that his... system... Made this determination... He doesn't know about it... he dreams things that make no sense to him and goes around... stabbing people... Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, why would Data be aware of what his sensors have detected or of what his "brains" have determined to be a way to protect the crew. Much better to make him act crazy and require a rigmarole to finally realize what he should have done to begin with...

Am I the only one to realize that this episode makes no sense whatsoever?

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

It's an episode that takes place mostly inside an android's dreams.

Of course it makes no sense. That's probably why they said "This is nuts! Let's do it!" and filmed it.

I thought it was wacky enough to be enjoyable.

Not making sense, though, that's Realm of Fear. You can't see when your eyes are disconnected molecules, you can't grab when your arms are disconnected molecules you can't be grabbed if you're a human that's for some reason a worm but still disconnected molecules.

That's the only episode I draw the line at "this makes no sense". Even Genesis rocks for me!

 

[tafkats]

Season 7. 'Nuff said.

 

[Taelon]

SFDebris reviewed this episode a couple of weeks ago. Which was fun.

Why Data didn't just talk to Troi about his dreams I have no idea.

Was her schedule really that full that you couldn't make an appointment, Data?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't think it's more of a reach than Trek usually asks of the audience.

I explain it this way. Dr Soong designed Data's dream program to work somewhat like human dreams do. To take ideas lying around in his brain, activate them randomly, draw connections, and interpret them into a narrative. Then, dump those impulses when Data wakes up but retain the memory of the narrative. So this dream program made this logical connection between subtle inputs he wasn't paying attention to and interpreted it into a narrative, and when he woke up all he could remember was the narrative. What Soong didn't intend is that this narrative would activate the part of his brain that perceives threats, so when he woke up the threat was still perceived without remembering why.

 

[at Quark's]

I always interpreted it that by this time, Data's processing was becoming so sophisticated (more humanlike) that he began developing a 'subconscious', in which the information went that he wasn't receiving consciously, but receiving nonetheless.

There are earlier instances of this, for example the symbol three he sent to his next loop in 'cause and effect'. (Data at first doesn't understand why he sees so many occurences of the number three).

A way for this subconscious information to surface could be by dreams, as it sometimes does in humans.

Now why an android would need to receive information subcounsciously when he probably has more than enough computational capability to process everything on a conscious level, I wouldn't know. Perhaps Soong thought this was essential to approximate humanlike behaviour ?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I don't think it's more of a reach than Trek usually asks of the audience.

I explain it this way. Dr Soong designed Data's dream program to work somewhat like human dreams do. To take ideas lying around in his brain, activate them randomly, draw connections, and interpret them into a narrative. Then, dump those impulses when Data wakes up but retain the memory of the narrative. So this dream program made this logical connection between subtle inputs he wasn't paying attention to and interpreted it into a narrative, and when he woke up all he could remember was the narrative. What Soong didn't intend is that this narrative would activate the part of his brain that perceives threats, so when he woke up the threat was still perceived without remembering why.

I disagree with the parallel with humans. The things we're not aware of and that only appear "coded" in our dreams are there for a reason, usually it's linked to a sense of shame and of denial, because we don't want to admit that we have these thoughts or these urges. There's no such thing here. First of all, Data has no fear and therefore no shame (since shame is a kind of fear). Second, even if he did have shame and fear, What's so shameful about knowing that creatures are threatening the ship and its crew and having the solution to that threat? nothing! In fact the only thing shameful about it is to know what to do and to do NOTHING.


The entire plot is just stupid. Data had no valid reason for keeping this information secret, "unconscious". This is the result of shortsighted misinformed writers. Who understand squat about psychology or what the dreams are made of.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Assuming dreams are solely about repressed fears and denials is pretty off base. Just last night, I had a boring dream that I was working. That was it. As was iterated so much in that episode, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Secondly, you're assuming Data knew what the dreams meant and kept it secret from everybody. But the programming done by a human supersedes anything Data can consciously perceive.

Random example, if Soong programmed Data to perceive the number 2 as a cat, it doesn't matter what Data knows as facts, the programming wins and everytime that number shows up on his screens he'll perceive it as a cat.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That's a very pop-psychology understanding of dreams, and not a very accurate one. I suppose it's usually the case for television characters.

Last night I dreamed I was watching Toy Story 4, and in it the toys decided they didn't want to just be playthings anymore, so they decided to stop following the rules of not acting animate in front of humans. That sounds more like my general distrust for authority speaking than my fears and denials.

Dreams are not intrinsically associated to some consciously undiscovered fact like they are on television. They're an associated interpretation of randomly firing neurons that our conscious mind perceives as real sensory stimulus.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Assuming dreams are solely about repressed fears and denials is pretty off base. Just last night, I had a boring dream that I was working. That was it. As was iterated so much in that episode, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Secondly, you're assuming Data knew what the dreams meant and kept it secret from everybody. But the programming done by a human supersedes anything Data can consciously perceive.

Random example, if Soong programmed Data to perceive the number 2 as a cat, it doesn't matter what Data knows as facts, the programming wins and everytime that number shows up on his screens he'll perceive it as a cat.

NO, you've misconstrued completely what I said. I didn't say that Data knew and kept it a secret. I meant that Data had no reason for keeping THAT information a secret from himself so to speak. The way we keep secret from ourselves, urges, that we consider shameful or anti-social. Data had all the reasons to keep this information conscious and to be fully aware of it. The story is just stupid.

Second I agree that even in our dreams sometimes a cigar is a cigar but this has nothing to do with our current discussion since we're talking about dreams where a cigar ISN'T a cigar.

Need I remind you that Data ISN't AWARE that his sensors have detected the creatures nor that part of his brain has computed a way to kill them? You are talking about the opposite situation. Do you need to take a rest or something?

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

<SNIP>

Do you need to take a rest or something?

Do you need a trolling warning?

 

[Trekker4747]

Too... many... ellipses... Can't... contain...

 

[Taelon]

What gave him the compulsion to stab the creature on Troi's shoulder?

That's seems like a pretty major bug with his Dreaming program.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

<SNIP>

Do you need to take a rest or something?

Do you need a trolling warning?

Am I the only one you're monitoring around here? I have been attacked quite a few times since I've started posting here. I've never seen you issue any warnings to those people.

 

[Trekker4747]

<SNIP>

Do you need to take a rest or something?

Do you need a trolling warning?

Am I the only one you're monitoring around here? I have been attacked quite a few times since I've started posting here. I've never seen you issue any warnings to those people.

It's more you have a very hostile tone whenever someone disagrees with you or challenges your interpretations of things. In this thread people have offered their opinions and views on the events in the episode and you countered each one of them with hostility. I've not followed all of your posts and such but the ones I've seen have been very much along these lines.

If people were breaking the rules, trust me, warnings or moderator interventions would occur for them as well. But your more hostile tone is shining a brighter light in you. If you're going to solicit people's opinions on things don't be so hostile when they offer an opinion or view you disagree with.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Do you need a trolling warning?

Am I the only one you're monitoring around here? I have been attacked quite a few times since I've started posting here. I've never seen you issue any warnings to those people.

It's more you have a very hostile tone whenever someone disagrees with you or challenges your interpretations of things. In this thread people have offered their opinions and views on the events in the episode and you countered each ine of them with hostility. I've not followed all of your posts and such but the one's I've seen have been very much along these lines.

If people were breaking the rules, trust me, warnings or moderator interventions would occur for them as well. But your more hostile tone is shining a brighter light in you. If you're going to solicit people's opinions on things don't be so hostile when they offer an opinion or view you disagree with.

It's rather ironic that it would be YOU that would call me hostile in THIS thread when you are the one poster that hasn't offered any opinion about the topic.

ALL you've done is mocking in a trollish way my use of ellipses.

Do you really think that your behavior is that of a contributive poster?

Seriously?


You know what they say, find the beam in thine own eye before searching for the mote in thy neighbor's eye, or something like that.

 

[Marsden]

I'm not sure what someone could say, are you asking someone else to say the story is stupid so you have an agreement?


I like the story, this one stood out for me from this season and for all of TNG as interesting, one of the better episodes. I thought it was more intelligent than many of the other episodes.

I can accept your disagreement with my opinion, but don't tell me it's stupid until you have built a functioning android with a positronic brain.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I'm not sure what someone could say, are you asking someone else to say the story is stupid so you have an agreement?


I like the story, this one stood out for me from this season and for all of TNG as interesting, one of the better episodes. I thought it was more intelligent than many of the other episodes.

I can accept your disagreement with my opinion, but don't tell me it's stupid until you have built a functioning android with a positronic brain.

There's no such thing as a positronic brain. Asimov invented the term on a whim while riding a bus home (according to his own memoirs). He thought that it sounded nice with no idea what it could mean or if anything of that name would ever exist, he could as well have said, netutrinonic brain or quark's place brain...

As for androids, they may exist someday but I doubt very much that they'll be anything like Data, who is let's face it, an aberration, come on! He has allegedly encyclopedic knowledge yet still doesn't understand expressions like "taking a rain check"? Ask Google, you'll see that IT does.

 

[Taelon]

How many different languages can he speak without even needing a Universal Translator, and he still can't use contractions?

It would have been much more sensible to say that he simply chooses never to use contractions, to sound more formal or something.

 

[Trekker4747]

It's rather ironic that it would be YOU that would call me hostile in THIS thread when you are the one poster that hasn't offered any opinion about the topic.

Fair enough, I'll offer it later, but I was hardly hostile in my posts.

ALL you've done is mocking in a trollish way my use of ellipses.

Well, comeon, it was excessive.

Do you really think that your behavior is that of a contributive poster?

Seriously?

Probably not, but one not need to be contributive all of the time. But all of the threads I've seen you start pretty much right away puts anyone that disagrees with you on the defensive.

You're opening post ends with the implication that you are the only one who sees the problem which sort of puts you on pedestal over all of us who do not see this problem. We're now on the defense having to justify our thoughts rather than simply offering them.

See: My Turing Test thread, in which I provide my thoughts on Data's ability to pass it but do not present my opinion as being the best and only one and then ask for other opinions.

I don't say, "Am I the only one who thinks Data would fail this?! I mean Data's a joke of a machine who can't even use contractions and everything about him is artificial. He's not passing this and anyone who thinks he could is delusional. "

This also relates to your Commander Riker threads/posts where you use strong language about the character which pretty much is going to get anyone who disagrees' hair to stand on end which, again puts yhem on the defensive rather than more neutral ground.

As for your original topic? The story doesn't make a whole lot of sense, sure, but it was trying ti be entettaining in some manner and offer some insight into how Data's brain works, Maybe it's like our brain and has it's limits as well resulting in "selective blindness." There's so many beings and detecting them takes so much of Data's resources he can't both detect them and be aware of it. For whatever reason humans do this all of the time, our brains have to in order to keep from being overwhelmed and this plays a role in dreaming. As our brain processes things. Data is essentially doing the same thing.

His brain can't cope with the alien presence AND make him aware of it, this may even be why he "oversleeps" his brain is dealing with too much. Maybe along the lines with when Troi lost her empathic ability when the ship was in a sea of 2-dimensional beings.

But, the episide was fairly silly.