Military occupation of Cardassia?

[ProtoAvatar]

The Breen has to be the big story here.

They launched an attack on earth itself.

I have a hard time believing they were allowed to just go home and promise never to make war again.

I believe that they probably had to surrender their warships and weapons to the Federation, but was that just it?

The Dominion started the entire war. And yet, at the end of the war, after its 'defeat', it only accepted to retreat into the Gamma Quadrant.

Why did the Allies allow for the central portion of the Dominion - in the Gamma Quadrant - to continue existing? Because they had no choice!

The Allies only defeated the Dominion expeditionary force; the main territory/industrial infrastucture of the Dominion lies in the Gamma quadrant, and, unlike the Alpha Quadrant, is unschated by the war. An invasion of the Gamma Quadrant by the Federation alliance would result in a war even more savage than the one that just ended, one that the Allies are likely to lose.


Similarly, it's highly doubtful that the breen surrenderd unconditionally - as in, surrender all their fleets, their territory, etc. Their fleets were not defeated - at most, the ships they sent to Cardassia Prime were lost.

If the Allies wanted to obtain unconditional surrender from the breen they would have had to start an invasion against breen territory - paying with their blood every system conquered. Obviously, the allies were unwilling to do that.


The cardassians were definitely the big loosers of the Dominion war: 800 million dead on Cardassia Prime alone - most likely, BILLIONS throughout the Cardassian Union - , the economy in shambles, the military likewise.

Every other participant in the war survived it just fine.

@DevilEyes
And you actually dare to accuse me of using straw-man arguments?

Yes, and he would be correct.

muzzleflash, if you take DevilEyes' side, you should at least look at "his" gender.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think one question to ask is, is the Federation too nice?


You have to look at how the Federation deals with former enemies that it signed treaties with and what happened afterwards.

The Romulans; The Federation negotiates the treaty of Algeron decades ago.

They agree to not to develop cloaking technology, but allow the Romulans to keep and use theirs.

Later after many decades, they suddenly appear again, and become very aggressive.

They are caught on a planet in the neutral zone.

They hatched a plan to lure the Enterprise into the Neutral zone and destroy it.

One of their spies were caught aboard their ship.

They tried to occupy Vulcan.


The Cardassians- the Federation signs a treaty with them after a hostile border war.

Troi takes it a step further and refers to them as "our allies". They are almost caught shipping weapons across a demilitarized zone.

They try to trick Starfleet into destroying a ship of innocent Bajoran civilians.

After that, there was an attempt to lure the federation into a trap, so they could invade a system in Federation space.

Given what the Breen did, should the Federation play hardball with them?


On the other hand, by keeping themselves out of conflict, unlike the Cardassians, Klingons and others, the Federation was able to enjoy more prosperity and stability.

 

[Matt4511]

My sense of the Cardassian Union, as I've discussed before, is that it was a fairly geographically large entity, whose relative lack of prominence came not from its size, but instead from lagging several generations behind the UFP in technology. As I once described it to Timo, it was like the Federation of the 24th Century coming into contact with an entity in many ways comparable to the Federation of the 23rd, but likely somewhat let massive and prosperous.

Despite its size, I envision it as a poor nation, where any planet they could claim is colonized, perhaps forcibly. I imagine as well that there were numerous subject worlds, conquered/annexed at any point in the indigenous people's evolution, and incorporated into the union as labourers.

With the Cardassian fleet broken at the end of the war, and the home world in tatters, I believe that some form of occupation would have occurred, but that it might have been brief. Cardassia Prime would have been returned to a form of sovereignty in short order, but the government would be highly dependent on Federation aid.

As to the rest of the Union, however, while I suspect that many if not most of the Cardassian-settled worlds would retain loyalty to Cardassia (whatever the circumstances of their settlement) I have postulated that any subject worlds would be quitted by the Union and perhaps made Federation protectorates until they could settle for themselves how they wished to be governed. Some would likely have advanced far enough technologically and socially to become fully independent, but I imagine that others would need to become Federation protectorates, if, for example, they had been strip mined to the point of near uselessness, or if the indigenous inhabitants lacked the ability to rule themselves.

The Prime Directive implications of the Federation assuming jurisdiction of a pre-warp, hell, pre-industrial society that had been conquered by a foreign entity that had just lost a war to the Federation would be fascinating, especially since, as others had pointed out, many UFP worlds themselves were in dire need of recovery and relief.

I suspect that Starfleet was VERY busy for many months after the war, quite possibly with no discernible drop in the tempo of operations until maybe a year or two later.

 

[muzzleflash]

Of course we assume the Federation even has the resources to carry out relief operations throughout the former Cardassian Union. However humanitarian their principles may be, self preservation is first and foremost. The Federation likely suffered the most out of the allied powers. They were the Dominion's primary target, and had several of their core worlds attacked. I would be an interesting result if the Federation simply did not have the manpower/logistics to manage the ruins of Cardassia, and that it would eventually fall (perhaps not voluntarily) into the hands of the Romulans and Klingons.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Here's some of the problems with a post war plan as I see it;

The Klingons have a feudal type of society and government, and it seems that the Houses own their own warships and contribute them to the war effort.

First, as far as reparations, these Klingons (Houses) would probably demand some type of repayment for the ships (and power) that they lost.

I know Martok is friendly with the Federation, so thats a good point, but what about the other Klingon Houses?


And then the second issue is space and land, if this is their type of society, then gaining more space and land would be important- the more land and space, the more power and prosperity.

A big temptation and motivation.

With the Romulans, it would be the perfect opportunity to expand their empire. In fact they actually sat out and waited during the war, just to see the Federation weakened.

It was stated that once they captured territory, they rarely give it up..

And the Breen and the Federation- the Federation has no motive or desire to gain territory, but I think they had to take some measures against the Breen..

This was something I always wondered;

Why were the Cardassians so afraid of losing the war, if the Federation is so generous?

 

[DevilEyes]

This was something I always wondered;

Why were the Cardassians so afraid of losing the war, if the Federation is so generous?

Here's a better question in the same vein: Why did the Cardassians ever rebel against the Dominion, if all they had to put up with was losing a few planets to the Breen and having the Founder and Vorta as the real authorities on Cardassia? There is no indication that the Dominion would start killing or abusing the population, if the Cardassians were just willing to accept their authority... while OTOH, it wasn't really unexpected that a rebellion would provoke the Founder to order the Jem'Hadar to conduct retaliation (although perhaps one could not predict that it would be so drastic and extreme)?

 

[Myasishchev]

Similarly, it's highly doubtful that the breen surrenderd unconditionally - as in, surrender all their fleets, their territory, etc. Their fleets were not defeated - at most, the ships they sent to Cardassia Prime were lost.

Just pointing out that this isn't known. There could have been significant combat operations in and around Breen space collateral with the ones carried out against Cardassia. It's not mentioned either way, but absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence here (I doubt officers in the ETO talked constantly about goings-on in the PTO, and our heroes are pretty well-dedicated to the fighting in and around the Cardassian Union).

 

[Matt4511]

Similarly, it's highly doubtful that the breen surrenderd unconditionally - as in, surrender all their fleets, their territory, etc. Their fleets were not defeated - at most, the ships they sent to Cardassia Prime were lost.

Just pointing out that this isn't known. There could have been significant combat operations in and around Breen space collateral with the ones carried out against Cardassia. It's not mentioned either way, but absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence here (I doubt officers in the ETO talked constantly about goings-on in the PTO, and our heroes are pretty well-dedicated to the fighting in and around the Cardassian Union).

Yes, for sure, I have no doubt the Breen-Federation border went wild for those short weeks the Breen were in the war. The Breen would hardly transfer their entire fleet away from their own home sectors to bolster the Dominion, so I'm sure that Starfleet and the Breen had at each other with abandon.

The interesting thing to postulate is what happened on that front when the Breen deployed their energy dampners. Was there also a Klingon force on the Federation able to stay in the fight, or were the energy dampners perhaps only in very limited circulation, used only in the Cardassian Theatre of War?

 

[Nightdiamond]

What I found strange was that the Cardassians really believed that they would remain autonomous after joining the Dominion.

From day one, we learn that the Founders are absolute leaders and they allowed no excepts to this.


Yet some Cardassians really seem to think they were going to rule the Alpha Quandrant as if they conquered it all by themselves.

Dukat was able to push a little authority around (sometimes), Damar, a little too, at first, but eventually he had been reduced to a puppet leader.

Broca fared even worse.

With the issue of losing against the Federation, there always seemed to be this fear that if they went to war with the Federation they were going to be destroyed, or lose everything.

Yet the ideas I've seen/read suggests that the Federation would not seize territory or brutally occupy their space.

Now, if they were thinking about the Klingons and the Romulans, that would be understable.

Ironically, the Federation are their saviors in a way...

 

[Myasishchev]

Similarly, it's highly doubtful that the breen surrenderd unconditionally - as in, surrender all their fleets, their territory, etc. Their fleets were not defeated - at most, the ships they sent to Cardassia Prime were lost.

Just pointing out that this isn't known. There could have been significant combat operations in and around Breen space collateral with the ones carried out against Cardassia. It's not mentioned either way, but absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence here (I doubt officers in the ETO talked constantly about goings-on in the PTO, and our heroes are pretty well-dedicated to the fighting in and around the Cardassian Union).

Yes, for sure, I have no doubt the Breen-Federation border went wild for those short weeks the Breen were in the war. The Breen would hardly transfer their entire fleet away from their own home sectors to bolster the Dominion, so I'm sure that Starfleet and the Breen had at each other with abandon.

The interesting thing to postulate is what happened on that front when the Breen deployed their energy dampners. Was there also a Klingon force on the Federation able to stay in the fight, or were the energy dampners perhaps only in very limited circulation, used only in the Cardassian Theatre of War?

The big question is why they weren't used at Earth in the first place, at which point the Breen could have destroyed numerous important targets like Utopia Planitia, SF HQ, Starbase 1, the fleet that was stationed there, and, if they so desired, human cities. Maybe they feared losing one, hastening Starfleet's inevitable reverse-engineering effort. Still, best to strike when the iron is hot.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The big question is why they weren't used at Earth, at which point the Breen could have destroyed numerous important targets like Utopia Planitia, SF HQ, Starbase 1, and, if they so desired, human cities.

A number of explanations are possible:

Perhaps ships with really heavy weaponry - like their new breen toy - would have been picked up by Federation sensors, intercepted by Federation patrols. In order to get to Earth, the breen had to bring with them only moderately powerful weaponry.

Perhaps only a small breen taskforce could get to Earth undetected. And so, it was decided that these warships won't use the breen energy dissipator, losinng the element of surprise for only the small amount of damage these ships could inflict before they were destroyed.
And, indeed, the first time the breen used the weapon was at Chin'toka, destroying hundredss of allied vessels - using the element of surprise with great efficiency.

And maybe the breen used their weapon on Earth, but, somehow, Federation sensors failed to pick it up - HIGHLY IMPROBABLE. In this case, despite their weapon, the breen ships were destroyed - by orbital weapon platforms? Think Chin'toka orbital weapon platform, Federation variant around Earth.

 

[Withers]

What I found strange was that the Cardassians really believed that they would remain autonomous after joining the Dominion.

From day one, we learn that the Founders are absolute leaders and they allowed no excepts to this.


Yet some Cardassians really seem to think they were going to rule the Alpha Quandrant as if they conquered it all by themselves.

That was all Dukat. We weren't ever even shown other members of the Cardassian government being involved in the Dominion acquisition of Cardassia. I'm not sure the civilian population or other elements of the government had any time to react to what happened save for Dukat's demeanor and assurances of a return to Cardassian prominence. What was done was done and they had to hope for the best.

-Withers-​

 

[Nightdiamond]

Yes, there were some Cardassians who even hated the idea. Kira's fake father, and members of the Obsidian Order in particular.


And yet, I think Gul Rusot, Damar's friend who helped him with the rebellion, claimed that people cheered when they first heard the news.

When the Domion started giving away their territory, that was when you got the feeling, "ok, here it comes"...

Even stranger, was that Dukat acted as if he had a way to do away with the Dominion once they won the war, somehow.

Another issue, what about Breen reparations to Cardassia?
An are they going to keep those planets the Dominion gave to them?

 

[Ra'min]

Concerning the romulans, i doubt they kept Benzar, this would mean a certain confrontation with the federation -and would have been mentionned in nemesis.
I rather think they used benzar as a bargain, in exchange from a chunk of cardassia.

There is however the issue of whether cardassian and romulan empires have a common border (i tend to see them as neigbhouring the Federation on either side). If not, the romulan may not be interested in getting a small cluster of star systems well outside his main territory, this would be a PITA to defend.