Military occupation of Cardassia?

[DevilEyes]

This means the cardassians don't expect the Federation to fight a long, bloody war for them, federation citizens to die just so that cardasssian teritory doesn't go to klingons or romulans.

What evidence do you have Federation not caving in to any Klingon or Romulan demand would lead to a bloody war???

If the cardassians think "about the Federation as another enemy empire bent on expansion, as hostile to Cardassia as the Klingons or Romulans, only more hypocritical about its motives and methods" because the Federation doesn't send its citizens to death, doesn't provoke the maximum possible amount of death and suffering for the sake of cardassians who just tried to DESTROY THE FEDERATION, let them think so. Contrary to what you think, it doesn't make the cardassians right - NOT EVEN CLOSE.

If your policy is "let them think so", you're not going to get very far in forging any kind of lasting peace in the long run. Using military or economic power can work in a short run, but turning the population against you and giving them reasons to hate and mistrust you is likely to bite you back in the ass sooner or later.

It's astounding how different standards you have for the Klignons. Apparently, the Federation has to go out of its way to appease them to the point of letting them annex territories with the population that they have a long-standing animosity for and which they'll likely to treat only slightly better than the Jem'Hadar did after they were ordered to slaughtered them (as for Klingon humanitarianism... Martok's reaction in What You Leave Behind said it all, and Martok is a decent and honorable guy by Klingon warrior standards. If you think that any Cardassians living in Klingon territories would not suffer atrocious fate, you're kidding yourself)... and you're assuming that, if the Klingons do not get everything they want, they'll immediately start another long and bloody war with the Federation?! The Klingon Empire that has, according to you, become more 'honorable' and 'humanitarian'?

The way you're painting Federation's relationship with the Klingon Empire, it makes it seem like it's not peace or alliance, but that the Federation is at the mercy of the Klingons unless it gives in to every demand they might have.

edit: Here's an idea for the negotiation: if the Klingon Empire must have parts of Cardassian Union territory, then let them have a planet where the majority of the population is non-Cardassian, and one that Klingons don't have a beef with, and significantly different from Cardassians enough so that the Klingons wouldn't think of them as Cardassians. Giving Klingons any territory with Cardassian population living on it is just inviting trouble to happen.

If the cardassians think "about the Federation as another enemy empire bent on expansion, as hostile to Cardassia as the Klingons or Romulans, only more hypocritical about its motives and methods" because the Federation doesn't send its citizens to death, doesn't provoke the maximum possible amount of death and suffering for the sake of cardassians who just tried to DESTROY THE FEDERATION let them think so. Contrary to what you think, it doesn't make the cardassians right - NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Contrary to what you think, racism and condemnation of an entire race of beings for the actions of their leadership goes against the fundamental ideals of the Federation. If the Federation officials were to actually employ the reasoning: "Cardassia was our enemy and therefore Cardassians deserve to rot, why should we give a damn about any of them", then they would be extremely HYPOCRITICAL.

About the Federation upholding its ideals - the DS9 scenarists (and, to a lesser extent, the TNG/etc ones) were inspired enough to NOT make the trekverse a morally perfect universe.

They were also smart enough not to make any of their lead Federation characters/heroes abandon their ideals altogether. See the above mentioned scene in What You Leave Behind, in which Sisko and Ross (neither of them a morally perfect Starfleet officer by any stretch of the imagination) are deeply saddened and horrified by the death and destruction they see on Cardassia, rather than gloating over hundreds of millions of dead Cardassians like Martok does.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

About the Federation upholding its ideals - the DS9 scenarists (and, to a lesser extent, the TNG/etc ones) were inspired enough to NOT make the trekverse a morally perfect universe.

That is, sometimes, the choice is the lesser evil between two evils.
An example - the Federation allying itself with the klingons, despite the imperialistic ways of these klingons - a continuing federation/klingon war would have caused much more death and suffering than this alliance allowed; indeed, there are signs that, recently, the klingon empire started to adopt more humanitarian values, or, if you prefer, that 'honor' started to become more than just a convenient excuse for anything.

Other examples - The Federation didn't attack all powers who acted contrary to its ideals, in order to stop their immoral ways. You see, that would change absolutely nothing, besides creating more death and suffering and leading to the fall of the Federation due to numerous wars.

At present:
"The Klingons and the romulans will definitely want their share of cardassian spoils of war. And if the Federation refuses, it could lead to a new war - at the very least, a new cold war - between klingons, romulans and the Federation."
Morally, a war - or cold war - between the Federation and klingons/romulans would cause much more death and suffering than giving the klingons and romulans the gains for which their soldiers died (I guarantee klingon/romulan soldiers didn't die in order to uphold moral ideals).

They were also smart enough not to make any of their lead Federation characters/heroes abandon their ideals altogether. See the above mentioned scene in What You Leave Behind, in which Sisko and Ross (neither of them a morally perfect Starfleet officer by any stretch of the imagination) are deeply saddened and horrified by the death and destruction they see on Cardassia, rather than gloating over hundreds of millions of dead Cardassians like Martok does.

Of course the Federation didn't abandon its ideals during the war.
But, when necessary, the Federation did choose the lesser evil in the war against the dominion, which enabled it to win the war - see 'In the pale moonlight'.

This means the cardassians don't expect the Federation to fight a long, bloody war for them, federation citizens to die just so that cardasssian teritory doesn't go to klingons or romulans.

What evidence do you have Federation not caving in to any Klingon or Romulan demand would lead to a bloody war???

Are you serious?
Many klingons and romulans died in the dominion war. And they didn't die for lofty ideals. They died so that their people remain strong, become stronger.
And now, let's say the Federation REFUSES to give the klingons and romulans the conquests bought with the blood of so many of their people! You seriously think they won't start a war - or cold war - in the next second? You don't know the klingons and romulans.

edit: Here's an idea for the negotiation: if the Klingon Empire must have parts of Cardassian Union territory, then let them have a planet where the majority of the population is non-Cardassian, and one that Klingons don't have a beef with, and significantly different from Cardassians enough so that the Klingons wouldn't think of them as Cardassians. Giving Klingons any territory with Cardassian population living on it is just inviting trouble to happen.

If there are enough non-cardassian-inhabitated territories, this is a valid negociation strategy.
But make no mmistake - in order to avoid war, the klingons and romulans must receive their spoils of war (and not just for show - something substantial).

If the cardassians think "about the Federation as another enemy empire bent on expansion, as hostile to Cardassia as the Klingons or Romulans, only more hypocritical about its motives and methods" because the Federation doesn't send its citizens to death, doesn't provoke the maximum possible amount of death and suffering for the sake of cardassians who just tried to DESTROY THE FEDERATION, let them think so. Contrary to what you think, it doesn't make the cardassians right - NOT EVEN CLOSE.

If your policy is "let them think so", you're not going to get very far in forging any kind of lasting peace in the long run. Using military or economic power can work in a short run, but turning the population against you and giving them reasons to hate and mistrust you is likely to bite you back in the ass sooner or later.

"giving them reasons to hate and mistrust you"
What reasons, exactly?
The fact that the Federation doesn't kill its citizens in order to protect the cardassians, creating more death and suffering than a klingon/romulan occupation of cardassia could ever generate? It's just that this greater amount of death and suffering would be primarily supported by federates, klingons and romulans, correct?

So, when a cardassian thinks - the Federation did the immoral thing by NOT starting a war with klingons/romulans, he actually thinks - cardassians are more valuable than anybody else, therefore, killing 10 federates to spare a cardassian is the moral thing to do; and sparing 10 federates and letting a cardassian die is, obviously, immoral.

If that's how the cardassians think, no amount of benevolence towars them is "going to get very far in forging any kind of lasting peace in the long run."
If that's not how the cardassians think, they will harbor no ill-feelings towards the Federation for the klingon/romiulan occupation.

It's astounding how different standards you have for the Klignons. Apparently, the Federation has to go out of its way to appease them to the point of letting them annex territories with the population that they have a long-standing animosity for and which they'll likely to treat only slightly better than the Jem'Hadar did after they were ordered to slaughtered them (as for Klingon humanitarianism... Martok's reaction in What You Leave Behind said it all, and Martok is a decent and honorable guy by Klingon warrior standards. If you think that any Cardassians living in Klingon territories would not suffer atrocious fate, you're kidding yourself)... and you're assuming that, if the Klingons do not get everything they want, they'll immediately start another long and bloody war with the Federation?! The Klingon Empire that has, according to you, become more 'honorable' and 'humanitarian'?

The way you're painting Federation's relationship with the Klingon Empire, it makes it seem like it's not peace or alliance, but that the Federation is at the mercy of the Klingons unless it gives in to every demand they might have.

Hardly.
If the klingons go over the board, the Federation will intervene. And the klingons know that - that's why, before the klingon attack on cardassia, the alpha quadrant experienced ~70 years of peace (according to Dax). Sounds to me like the klingon/federation alliance generated prosperity and peace for almost a century - undoubtedly, against the wishes of many klingon houses. It's the klingons that are kept in a leash.

As for Martok - he didn't kill the cardassians who died on Cardassia Prime; he just could't care less about them. As for the cardassians he did kill, they were soldiers, fighting for a genocidal power - the dominion.
And YES, he's one of the more honorable klingons. Can you imagine what the klingons would have done in the previous century if the Federation would not have kept them in a leash, forcing them to behave?

If the cardassians think "about the Federation as another enemy empire bent on expansion, as hostile to Cardassia as the Klingons or Romulans, only more hypocritical about its motives and methods" because the Federation doesn't send its citizens to death, doesn't provoke the maximum possible amount of death and suffering for the sake of cardassians who just tried to DESTROY THE FEDERATION let them think so. Contrary to what you think, it doesn't make the cardassians right - NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Contrary to what you think, racism and condemnation of an entire race of beings for the actions of their leadership goes against the fundamental ideals of the Federation. If the Federation officials were to actually employ the reasoning: "Cardassia was our enemy and therefore Cardassians deserve to rot, why should we give a damn about any of them", then they would be extremely HYPOCRITICAL.

DevilEyes, NOT owing the cardassians anything is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from condemning the entire race for the actions of their leadership (consistently supported by the cardassian population, except for a small minority).
It is an objective statement of fact - the cardassians never did anything to help the Federation, therefore, the Federation ows the cardassians ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

And make no mistake - choosing NOT to go to war with the klingons/romulans IS THE RIGHT CHOICE, the choice that will generate the LEAST AMOUNT of death and suffering.
Making this decision doesn't make the Federation hypocritical - it means that the Federation upholds its values as much as possibe in an universe that doesn't give a damn about morals.

 

[DevilEyes]

Are you serious?
Many klingons and romulans died in the dominion war. And they didn't die for lofty ideals. They died so that their people remain strong, become stronger.
And now, let's say the Federation REFUSES to give the klingons and romulans the conquests bought with the blood of so many of their people! You seriously think they won't start a war - or cold war - in the next second? You don't know the klingons and romulans.

My bad, I thought the war started because the Dominion was trying to conquer the Alpha Quadrant and that it was a defensive war on the part of the Federation/Klingons/Romulans... rather than that it was a war of conquest that the Klingons and Romulans started in order to gain new territories.

"giving them reasons to hate and mistrust you"
What reasons, exactly?

Um, throwing a large part of Cardassian population at the tender mercy of the Klingon Empire? What is the Federation going to do if the Klingons start killing or abusing the local population?

As for Martok - he didn't kill the cardassians who died on Cardassia Prime; he just could't care less about them.

Exactly. And you think he'd go out of his way to protect the Cardassian population in the Empire's new territories, at the risk antagonizing a number of Klingon dignitaries? Puh-lease.

Hardly.
If the klingons go over the board, the Federation will intervene. And the klingons know that - that's why, before the klingon attack on cardassia, the alpha quadrant experienced ~70 years of peace (according to Dax).

Are you SERIOUS?

You've just been arguing for several posts that the Federation must not oppose Klingon territorial demands DURING THE NEGOTIATIONS, when it has EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to do that, because, according to you, this would provoke a war with the Klingon Empire. And now you're arguing that the Federation would INTERVENE in what the Klingon Empire is doing on ITS OWN TERRITORY?

Now THAT would almost certainly provoke a new war. And it goes against the Federation's own policy of non-interference, and it's something that we know very well the Federations NEVER does - it never interfered with anything that the Klingons choose do on their own territories, it never raised its voice or its weapons to protect any subject race from the Klingons, just as it never tried to protect the Bajorans or any other subject race from the Cardassians. Once those territories become a part of the Klingon Empire, it would become an internal matter of the Klingon Empire. The Federation would certainly not interfere at this point, and if it did, it would give the Klingons a good reason, for once, to break the peace with the Federation.

The fact that the Federation doesn't kill its citizens in order to protect the cardassians, creating more death and suffering than a klingon/romulan occupation of cardassia could ever generate? It's just that this greater amount of death and suffering would be primarily supported by federates, klingons and romulans, correct?

What the hell are you on about?! Nobody is talking about the Federation "killing its own citizens" - we're talking about diplomacy and negotiations with one's allies, for crying out loud!

If that's how the cardassians think, no amount of benevolence towars them is "going to get very far in forging any kind of lasting peace in the long run."
If that's not how the cardassians think, they will harbor no ill-feelings towards the Federation for the klingon/romiulan occupation.

Is this nonsense the kind of excuse that politicians make for leading selfish and racist policies while pronouncing themselves humanitarians?

DevilEyes, NOT owing the cardassians anything is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from condemning the entire race for the actions of their leadership (consistently supported by the cardassian population, except for a small minority).
It is an objective statement of fact - the cardassians never did anything to help the Federation, therefore, the Federation ows the cardassians ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Meaning what?

The Federation should only care about the species that had provided it service and therefore made it indebted to them? Tit for tat? You do us good, and we'll do something for you; we don't give a crap for the rest of the galaxy and people of any other species that we're not an extra good terms with?

Are you sure you're talking about the Federation, rather than the Terran Empire?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

@DevilEyes
About the klingons:
"My bad, I thought the war started because the Dominion was trying to conquer the Alpha Quadrant and that it was a defensive war on the part of the Federation/Klingons/Romulans... rather than that it was a war of conquest that the Klingons and Romulans started in order to gain new territories. "

And you say I view the klingons/romulans favourably.

Apparently, you misunderstood me about the klingons:

They are agressive imperialists - but they are agresive imperialists with VERY BIG GUNS.

Your solution to the problem involves - what - attacking the klingons, and, after a war which would cost HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of lives, MAYBE conquer them?
And then what? Maintaining a costly - in blood and resources - occupation force indefinitely - because every single klingon would cut his throat before accepting to be a conquered people.
How do you want to end this costly stalemate - by exterminatinng all klingons? Is this in keeping with the Federation ideals, according to you?

The plan the Federation implemented is much more elegant - from all relevant perspectives.
The Federation became the Klingons' allies and kept the klingons in a tight leash for ~70 years - Dax, DS9:Way of the warrior. During this time, The Federation slowly moved the klingons away from their predatory ways - as evidenced by these 70 years of peace.
The Dominion appeared, which encouraged certain extremist elements (Gowron included) to attack Cardassia (the changeling spy also helped).
Post-war, the Federation's plan is back on track - a federation-sympathetic chancellor has the power, the empire is closer to the Federation than ever.



About the occupation of cardassians by klingons:
"What the hell are you on about?! Nobody is talking about the Federation "killing its own citizens" - we're talking about diplomacy and negotiations with one's allies, for crying out loud! "

Let us be clear:
NO AMOUNT OF NEGOCIATIONS will prevent a federation - klingon/romulan war if the Federation doesn't allow them to take substantial spoils of war.
And, in a federation - klingon/romulan conflict, the Federation WILL SEND ITS CITIZENS TO DEATH - WILL KILL ITS CITIZENS!



"giving them reasons to hate and mistrust you"
What reasons, exactly?
"Um, throwing a large part of Cardassian population at the tender mercy of the Klingon Empire?"

The alternative to this is starting a federation klingon/romulan war, which will cause, by far, more suffering.
In other words, letting the klingons ocuppy cardassian territory is the lesser of two evils. If the cardassians don't see this, it's because their perspective is hopelessly egocentric and arrogant - "~It doesn't matter how much the federates suffer; it only matters how much we suffer".



"Is this nonsense the kind of excuse that politicians make for leading selfish and racist policies while pronouncing themselves humanitarians? "

No, it isn't.
Your reply, though, is the kind of non-sensical rhetoric one uses when one has run out of rational arguments.



"You've just been arguing for several posts that the Federation must not oppose Klingon territorial demands DURING THE NEGOTIATIONS, when it has EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to do that, because, according to you, this would provoke a war with the Klingon Empire. And now you're arguing that the Federation would INTERVENE in what the Klingon Empire is doing on ITS OWN TERRITORY? "

Firstly, the Federation has no 'LEGAL RIGHT' to stop the klingons from taking cardassian territories.

Secondly - yes, I expect the Federation to intervene diplomatically to improve the cardassian's situation in the klingon-occupied territories (and with Martok on the throne, this would amost certainly succeed).

If the klingon treatement of cardassians becomes inacceptable to the point that a federation-klingon war is a better alternative (this would be practically impossible), then yes, I expect the Federtion to intervene militarily.
This would be, morally, the lesser of two evils. Would this breach the Prime Directive? Depends of the interpretation of the directive; if it does breach it, then this breached prime directive interpretation is immoral.

 

[DevilEyes]

@DevilEyes
About the klingons:
"My bad, I thought the war started because the Dominion was trying to conquer the Alpha Quadrant and that it was a defensive war on the part of the Federation/Klingons/Romulans... rather than that it was a war of conquest that the Klingons and Romulans started in order to gain new territories. "

Those little guffaw faces are supposed to mean...what? That you find it hilarious that anyone could think that it was the Dominion that was attacking and endangering the Alpha Quadrant, and that this was the reason why the war started?

That you have watched a completely different show?

Please, enlightened the poor misguided me. Re-write the entire show. Explain how the show, as it is, has misguided me. I never knew it was the war of conquest on the part of the Federation/Klingon/Romulan side - maybe the Dominion was just helping the endangered races of the Alpha Quadrant. And what was all that business with Sisko and Garak tricking the Romulans into the war by making them believe that the Dominion was planning to ATTACK and CONQUER them? Shouldn't they have just offered the Romulans a few planets to enter the war?

And you say I view the klingons/romulans favourably.

No, I don't.

For starters, I'm not the one who claims that the Klingons and Romulans are so bent on war that they'd start a new one just if during the post-war negotiations the Federation opposes the idea to give them big chunks of Cardassian territory.

Your solution to the problem involves - what - attacking the klingons, and, after a war which would cost HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of lives, MAYBE conquer them?

And then what? Maintaining a costly - in blood and resources - occupation force indefinitely - because every single klingon would cut his neck before accepting to be a conquered people.
How do you want to end this costly stalemate - by exterminatinng all klingons? Is this in keeping with the Federation ideals, according to you?

If the cardassians don't see this, it's because their perspective is hopelessly egocentric and arrogant - "~It doesn't matter how much the federates suffer; it only matters how much we suffer".
If this is the cardassian mindset, NOTHING, no amount of benevolence will change it.

The human colonist mindset has proven to be "hopelessly egocentric and arrogant" when they had to give up their homes and relocate, or live under the Cardassian rule. They held a grudge and even started a terrorist movement.

I guess nothing, no amount of benevolence, will change the Human mindset, eh?

"Is this nonsense the kind of excuse that politicians make for leading selfish and racist policies while pronouncing themselves humanitarians? "

No, it isn't.

You think it's too ridiculous and absurd even for that?

"See, they hate us, so we shouldn't care how we treat them. If we are good to them, it still will never change their opinion about us. And they expect us to not give a crap about them, so we should fulfill their expectations, and they won't hold it against us! Voila! "

Hmm....

If there are enough non-cardassian-inhabitated territories, this is a valid negociation strategy.
But make no mmistake - in order to avoid war, the klingons and romulans must receive their spoils of war (and not just for show - something substantial).

If Cardassian Union is one of the big powers of the Alpha Quadrant, on par with the Federation (which consists of 180 planets), the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire, it is only likely to have quite a few subject worlds where the majority of population is not Cardassian, unless Cardassians are many times more numerous than any race in the AQ.

Firstly, the Federation has no 'LEGAL RIGHT' to stop the klingons from taking cardassian territories.

Secondly - yes, I expect the Federation to intervene diplomatically to improve the cardassian's situation (and with Martok on the throne, this would amost certainly succeed).

The Federation can successfully intervene diplomatically about what will have become the internal matter of the Klingon Empire AFTER the Klingon Empire annexes Cardassian territories, even though they have no chance in hell, according to you, of having any success DIPLOMATICALLY during the negotiations about what to do with the Cardassian territories?



Yes, that really makes sense...

Let's see: you think the Federation should first agree that the Klingon Empire should rule territories where the majority of population is Cardassian, despite the recent history and bad blood between the two races... and then wait for the shit to hit the fan, before they start complaining and asking Martok to intervene and discipline the local Klingon authorities and make them treat Cardassians well? Which would leave Martok the choice to either tell the Federation to fuck off, or undermine his own position in the Empire and invite accusations that he's letting the Federation meddle in the internal affairs of the Klingon Empire?

Really not a good idea.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Let us be clear on one point - the Federation ows the cardassians ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
More than one time in the past, the Federation tried to build a peaceful relation to the cardasian union - and each time, the cardassians met these attempts with scorn and aggression.
And now, after the latest (and gravest) cardassian aggresion against the Fedetation is over, the cardassians expect the Federation to fight wars for their sake? The cardassians think they have THE RIGHT TO ASK THIS OF THE FEDERATION?

The Cardassians probably ask or expect NOTHING from the Federation. If I were to hazard a guess, most Cardassians are more likely to expect the Federation to do exactly what you're suggesting. Apart from a possible minority that might believe that Federation really sticks to it self-proclaimed ideals, it's more likely that most Cardassians are used to thinking about the Federation as another enemy empire bent on expansion, as hostile to Cardassia as the Klingons or Romulans, only more hypocritical about its motives and methods. An opinion which the Federation would confirm by doing what you suggest.

It's the Federation itself that should ask and expect itself to behave differently, if all those proclamations about Federation ideals and morals have any basis in reality, and unless Federation and Starfleet authorities aren't just nothing by big hypocrites.

Thank you! As usual, you manage to sum up what I was going to say!

I should add that Klingons and Romulans, under my idea, would have troops, and would have say, but they would NOT be permitted to take territory (nor would the Federation plant a flag), or move on their own in non-integrated units. For that matter, the Federation, too, would be accompanied and watched by the Klingons, Romulans, AND whatever official military forces are raised up again from Cardassia itself, under the new flag. This is the only equitable solution that involves everyone but does not treat the Cardassians like slaves.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

@DevilEyes

So, you only commented half of my last post (interlaced with parts from my previous ones - after all, you need material to misinterpret) - a half you took out of contest and misinterpreted generously.

And you actually dare to accuse me of using straw-man arguments?
Cute.

I guess you're no longer interested in having a rational discussion, DevilEyes. Like a spoiled baby, nowadays you only care about blindly supporting whatever is the opposite of what I say.
Let me know when you calmed down. Until then, talking to you is a waste of time.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ So, you've realized that you have no arguments to speak of and you've decided to openly switch to personal attacks and trolling. Good, I don't have to waste my time on you anymore.

 

[muzzleflash]

@DevilEyes
And you actually dare to accuse me of using straw-man arguments?

Yes, and he would be correct.

 

[Nightdiamond]

This is interesting...

The Female Founder asked what if the Klingons and Romulans decided to enter the Gamma Quadrant and try to destroy the Founders.

Odo made a statement that the Federation 'would never allow it'.

That seems to suggest (in part) that there was some agreement about not seizing territory after the war.

Considering that the Federation intervened when the Klingons first attacked Cardassia gives this idea some more weight.

On the other hand, it's been said (during the Dominion war) that once the Romulans captured territory they rarely give it up or back.

And the Klingons...I have read that their government and society resembles a feudal based one.

If that's the case, land and space is power, I can see the big temptation for the Klingons.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

@DevilEyes

So, you only commented half of my last post (interlaced with parts from my previous ones - after all, you need material to misinterpret) - a half you took out of contest and misinterpreted generously.

And you actually dare to accuse me of using straw-man arguments?
Cute.

I guess you're no longer interested in having a rational discussion, DevilEyes. Like a spoiled baby, nowadays you only care about blindly supporting whatever is the opposite of what I say.
Let me know when you calmed down. Until then, talking to you is a waste of time.

^ So, you've realized that you have no arguments to speak of and you've decided to openly switch to personal attacks and trolling. Good, I don't have to waste my time on you anymore.

Yoohoo??? How bouts' we knock off the potshots?

Both of you.

Don't care who started it - only care that it's finished, like, now.

Thanks for your continued cooperation.

 

[Red Ranger]

No. Some of what you propose sounds more like a World War I solution rather than a World War II solution to what the Alpha Quadrant Alliance would do to Cardassia.

Now, it's possible some territory acquired by the Klingons, Romulans, even the Federation, remained in the hands of each individual power. But I think the Federation would insist on more of a Marshall Plan approach to Cardassia -- help rebuild it. After all, a broken Cardassia is of no benefit to the galaxy.

War crimes trials? Perhaps, but I think it would be limited to the top echelons of the Dominion rather than Cardassia. After all, Damar, who was leader of the Cardassians, turned against the Dominion, as did many members of the Cardassian military and civilians.

A thought did occur to me, though. Gowron, although prodded by the changeling disguised as Martok, was right: Cardassia under control of the Klingons would've made the Alpha Quadrant safer. There would've been no Cardassian military to ally with the Dominion then. The Dominion would then have tried to recruit either the Klingons or the Romulans into its fold. I could see the Romulans more easily accepting such an alliance, under certain conditions. Hmm. Could be an idea for a novel!

 

[ProtoAvatar]

No. Some of what you propose sounds more like a World War I solution rather than a World War II solution to what the Alpha Quadrant Alliance would do to Cardassia.

Now, it's possible some territory acquired by the Klingons, Romulans, even the Federation, remained in the hands of each individual power. But I think the Federation would insist on more of a Marshall Plan approach to Cardassia -- help rebuild it. After all, a broken Cardassia is of no benefit to the galaxy.

World War 2 - the west ceded to the soviets half of Europe. There's no way Stalin would have accepted to behave if he didn't get this substantial gain.

Post dominion war - there's no way the romulans and klingons will behave is they don't receive equally substantial gains - meaning cardassian territory and resources (the only resources available in large quantities). And "not behaving" means cold war at the very least; probably 'hot' war.

About the 'Marshall Plan' approach - no doubt, the Federation will insist on somethig similar for cardassia. But, much like how the Marshall Plan didn't reach Eastern Europe, there will be limits to the Federation's equivalent.

War crimes trials? Perhaps, but I think it would be limited to the top echelons of the Dominion rather than Cardassia. After all, Damar, who was leader of the Cardassians, turned against the Dominion, as did many members of the Cardassian military and civilians.

I think about Cardassia's treatement of Bajor - official policy, supported for decades by cardassian central authorities (and largely, by the population), enacted by the cardassian military - and I doubt only dominion personnel commited war crimes.

A thought did occur to me, though. Gowron, although prodded by the changeling disguised as Martok, was right: Cardassia under control of the Klingons would've made the Alpha Quadrant safer. There would've been no Cardassian military to ally with the Dominion then. The Dominion would then have tried to recruit either the Klingons or the Romulans into its fold. I could see the Romulans more easily accepting such an alliance, under certain conditions. Hmm. Could be an idea for a novel!

There are too many variables - no one can say how things would have turned out.
In my opinion, even without cardassia, the dominion would have still invaded the alpha quadrant by some other means - the founders were just too determined to do this.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

I should add that Klingons and Romulans, under my idea, would have troops, and would have say, but they would NOT be permitted to take territory (nor would the Federation plant a flag), or move on their own in non-integrated units. For that matter, the Federation, too, would be accompanied and watched by the Klingons, Romulans, AND whatever official military forces are raised up again from Cardassia itself, under the new flag. This is the only equitable solution that involves everyone but does not treat the Cardassians like slaves.

By the klingons and romulans 'having say', I understand you mean the klingons and romlans 'having say' in the administarion of cardassia, with the only purpose of nursing cardassia back to health, yes?

If so, yours is a naive appraisal of the situation.

The klingons and romulans have no interest in nursing cardassia back to health. What they want are spoils - dominion/cardassian technology, strategic locations, resources. Essentially, they want to exploit cardassia as much as possible.
If your joint administration allows the romulans and klingons to exploit cardassia to their heart's content, they'll welcome it. If it doesn't allow this, they'll NEVER agree with it.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

A thought did occur to me, though. Gowron, although prodded by the changeling disguised as Martok, was right: Cardassia under control of the Klingons would've made the Alpha Quadrant safer.

And FAR safer still would have been a democratic Cardassia under its own recognizance. Which is what would've happened if Gowron hadn't decided to attack the Cardassians.

As to the Klingons and Romulans--remember, the arrangement I propose is one in which the Federation gains nothing and only expends its resources (and most likely the lion's share of the industrial resources, as I doubt the other powers can match in that regard). They will have the Federation tied up on Cardassia and likely less force commitment themselves, so they do gain a check on Federation power through that. AND all accomplished without abusing the Cardassians, who have already been through way more than enough.

 

[Baconnaise]

I like speculation just like anyone else but we already know what would have been a logical answer. The show is written and played out much like today's politics and regimes even past regimes. Look back at history and see what happened. We can see what answers were ultimately put in place.

We have a crumbled empire of Cardassia and the Breen which will ultimately be gobbled up by all involved parties in some way shape or form. The bickering right now is over where the new lines will be laid.

 

[Ra'min]

i've speculated a lot about on what could happen just after WYLB, including on what happened to the poor cardies.

first the troop surrounding cardiassia prime : after the peace was set, the cardassian troops propable turned their layalty to whatever new governement cardassia have. The breen likely just went back to their homeworld. But the jem'hadar troops? What happened to them ? Where they made POWs ? Allowed to go back to the gamma quadrant ? Did they commit mass suicide ?

The "female" (i tend to believe founders are genderless) founder accepted to stand trial. The federation doesn't do death punishment, but perharps she was judged (along wih surviving vortas) not by the deferation, but by a nuremberg-like ally tribunal, so death pubnishment is possible. But i see more likely a sort of perpetual detention : buried or something, cut for the great link forever.

now, more speculation. I imagine the following.

The cardassian created some sort of provisonnial government largely helped by the federation, a bit like bajor 7 years before.
However, bajorans had little outside their own planet, while cardassia had a vast empire. The provisionnal government has difficulties to assert his autority outside cardassia system itself and a few other core systems. Remote cardassian colonies tend to ignore it (and often perceive it as a federatipn puppet). some of them more or less try to be independant, some relapse into chaos and desintegrate, some try to get closer to other space power. Also, species that had been forcibly integrated into the cardassian empire get independant.

Meanwhile, Bajor finally joins the federation. DS9 is replaced by a full-scale starbase, to guard the wormhole.

The dominion is still a threat. Odo's influence in the great link however smooths the Founders slightly. Trade with the gamma quadrant is resumed, but still under heavy guard.

The Breen have gone back to their territory. They still occupy several ex-cardassian planets given to them by the dominion when they allied. This of course raises huge tensions with the cardassian prov. governement. The Romulans are trying to help the Cardassian to reorganise their fleet and retake those planets by force : they see it as an opportunity to get rid of breen threat without engaging their own forces, and, simultaneously, to delay possible entry of cardassia into the UFP.

The federation have freed all cardassian POW's so they can work to rebuild cardassia. Klingons and romulans, however, have kept their own cardassian POW's.

Meanwhile, the cardassian empire is no longer an obstacle for starfleet exporation, so the further regions of the alpha quadrant can be more easily reached. In the beta quadrant, romulan are still forbidding Starfleet explorers to cross their territory, because they don't want Federation to make contact with species on the far side of their empire, which could potentially become allies against them.
But stafleet have launched a couples of expeditions (typically consisting of one Galaxy-class starship and two intrepids) which turns completely around the romulan empire.
Overall, after a couple of years of purely warlike action starfleet tries to resume his peacefull missions and makes a lot of public relations work about "10 new explorations expediations, each reaching 10 000 lights years from earth".

But the situation inside the federation is difficult, too.
Benzar and Betazed have to rebuild after dominion occupation.
Starfleet had to launch every ship it could to the frontline and thus to desert remote areas far from it. This has resulted in an higher level of instability (pirates and so on), which is true in most of the quadrant.

To make things worst, the battles of the dominion war have left thousands of ship wrecks, and scavangers have been busy. Technologies like dominion pulsed polarons emitters or klingon cloaking device becomes quite easy to come by, which makes pirates, terrorists, and separatists factions more powerful than ever.

In the same time, the dominion (and borg incursions too) war have made federation citizens much more apprehensive of the rest of the galaxy. This doesn't reach the point of single planet isolationnism, but a growing political movement thinks that starfleet should be mainly asked to guard the borders of the federation, and be extremely careful about deep space exploration : after all, they say, the dominion war wouldn't have happened if starfleet had kept the existence of the wormhole secret and hadn't ventured into the gamma quadrant.

never thought i would write such a long post oO

 

[DevilEyes]

^ I think that's an excellent analysis.

But the jem'hadar troops? What happened to them ? Where they made POWs ? Allowed to go back to the gamma quadrant ? Did they commit mass suicide ?

A really interesting question.

The "female" (i tend to believe founders are genderless) founder accepted to stand trial. The federation doesn't do death punishment, but perharps she was judged (along wih surviving vortas) not by the deferation, but by a nuremberg-like ally tribunal, so death pubnishment is possible. But i see more likely a sort of perpetual detention : buried or something, cut for the great link forever.

That's probably the harshest punishment she could imagine.

I wonder, how does keeping a shapeshifter in prison look like, anyway?

 

[Ra'min]

I wonder, how does keeping a shapeshifter in prison look like, anyway?

in ds9 "DAX", some bad guys came in the station to steal dax symbiot and, by threatening to kill miles, forced odo to be locked in a box.


About the jem'hadars in Cardassia prime, the Founder ordered them to stand by, so they did it. It would be quite foolish from the allies to allow this dominion fleet to go back to delta quadrant, as there's no garanty the dominion will not come again.

an hypothesis : the Jam'hadar were allowed to go back to the gamma quadrant, but without their ships, which were kept by the allies as a war damage. Some of them were given to the cardassians for their new fleet, other kept by the allies. So, now , Harry Kim is captain of a ship, which is a jem'hadar cruiser converted to a starfleet explorer ^^

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Breen has to be the big story here.

They launched an attack on earth itself.

I have a hard time believing they were allowed to just go home and promise never to make war again.

I believe that they probably had to surrender their warships and weapons to the Federation, but was that just it?