Military occupation of Cardassia?

[Herbert1]

I was just wondering if fans believed that the three powers would militarily occupy Cardassia Prime and regions of the Cardassian Union after the war? Do you think that there were war crimes tribunals and Cardassian Guls etc. were placed on trial for war crimes and other atrocities? That the Romulan Star Empire or the Klingon Empire confiscated territory of the Cardassian Union as compensation? That the three allies had a Yalta-like conference where they agreed to carve up the Cardassian Union between them? Cardassia Prime divided like post-War/Cold War Berlin?

That the Cardassian Union has broken up into parts and new "nations" have emerged from former subject races? Perhaps something similar to the break-up of Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union?

The Breen Confederacy made to pay compensation by the confiscation of territory?

Or would the Cardassians be spared this break-up of their territory and be pardoned for their war crimes because they turned against the Dominion?

 

[DevilEyes]

I was just wondering if fans believed that the three powers would militarily occupy Cardassia Prime and regions of the Cardassian Union after the war? Do you think that there were war crimes tribunals and Cardassian Guls etc. were placed on trial for war crimes and other atrocities? That the Romulan Star Empire or the Klingon Empire confiscated territory of the Cardassian Union as compensation? That the three allies had a Yalta-like conference where they agreed to carve up the Cardassian Union between them? Cardassia Prime divided like post-War/Cold War Berlin?

Nope. It's hard to imagine how anyone could justify something like that, considering 1) the fact that the 3 powers have the Cardassian Rebellion, among other things, to thank for the way the tide of war had turned, and 2) that Cardassia ended up being the biggest victim of the Dominion, it makes a lot more sense to imagine (as the relaunch books do) that there would be a campaign to help Cardassia after it had suffered such wide-scale destruction and genocide.

That the Cardassian Union has broken up into parts and new "nations" have emerged from former subject races? Perhaps something similar to the break-up of Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union?

Possibly, but the reasons for neither of those two break-ups were in any way similar to the situation that the Cardassian Union was in. Maybe the break-up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire after the World War I would be a more accurate comparison, although still not perfect, as the situation was, as noted above, quite different.

In any case, I'm sure there would be a lot of turmoil on Cardassia Prime itself and the rest of the Union in the following years.

 

[Herbert1]

^I can certainly see that the United Federation of Planets taking the position that the Cardassians have suffered enough. I just don't see that being the position of the Romulan Star Empire or the Klingon Empire. It could be a source of tension among the allies during the post-war period.

Would the DMZ be dismantled between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union and would the surviving settlers be allowed to return to colonies in the disputed territories? Renewed activity by the surviving Maquis?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah, I'm really hoping Cardassian territory wouldn't be carved up...that mistake was made with Germany and boy did it EVER cause problems for the Germans! I would hope to see something more of a cross between the Marshall Plan and the Coalition helping the Cardassians to stand up their own government again. War crimes tribunals would need to be held, but I think that Cardassian participation would be key. I still think there'd be a lot of turmoil, but to me, carving up Cardassian territory would be the worst mistake possible. (I mean, letting the Klingons control parts of Cardassian territory as a province of their empire? Hell no. Not after what they did that, in my opinion, was partly responsible for STARTING the war in the first place!)

 

[Herbert1]

^Perhaps the Klingon demand for former Cardassian territory could lead to the expulsion of Worf as Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire and this can explain the commander's uniform in Star Trek: Nemesis. We don't have to accept the way that the continuation novels handled the situation.

Maybe there were other worlds under Cardassian military occupation with Nor class space stations that are now Federation protectorates.

I could see the United Federation of Planets assisting the Cardassians in the rebuilding process similar to the Marshall Plan.

If we don't like the war crimes tribunal idea, I guess we could have something similar to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission like in post-apartheid South Africa.

 

[Danoz]

I was just wondering if fans believed that the three powers would militarily occupy Cardassia Prime and regions of the Cardassian Union after the war? Do you think that there were war crimes tribunals and Cardassian Guls etc. were placed on trial for war crimes and other atrocities? That the Romulan Star Empire or the Klingon Empire confiscated territory of the Cardassian Union as compensation? That the three allies had a Yalta-like conference where they agreed to carve up the Cardassian Union between them? Cardassia Prime divided like post-War/Cold War Berlin?

That the Cardassian Union has broken up into parts and new "nations" have emerged from former subject races? Perhaps something similar to the break-up of Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union?

The Breen Confederacy made to pay compensation by the confiscation of territory?

Or would the Cardassians be spared this break-up of their territory and be pardoned for their war crimes because they turned against the Dominion?

If I were in the Federation post-Dominion war I would have been a hugh proponent of quick reconciliation and focus on building and maintaining a powerful Federation military presence in case the Borg (or countless others) tried to take advantage of the weakened quadrant.

As far as occupation, Cardassia was a wasteland of a planet to begin with (hence the very reason they annexed Bajor to begin with) and post-war Cardassia was even more. This is something I think the novels handled exceptionally well in apocrypha with Garak's role in the new government and the civil unrest-- and Federation/Bajoran attempts to rebuild and make the land self-sufficient.

 

[Myasishchev]

Yeah, I'm really hoping Cardassian territory wouldn't be carved up...that mistake was made with Germany and boy did it EVER cause problems for the Germans!

East Germans I'll grant. The FRG became probably the most prosperous country in Europe, and was permanently (I mean, at least so far) prevented from doing those things Germany was once known for (like killing large swathes of Poland and conquering France and Belgium). The upshot for Germany for the Anglo-American-French occupation was pretty much uniformly positive. I don't see why an occupation by the Federation, which is even nicer, would be worse.

As for the Soviet zone (and the analogous Romulan or Klingon zones), well, that was their problem. Though the abject surrender of Eastern Europe to the USSR is one of those few times I question FDR's judgment.

The experience in Japan was, afaik, also pretty good. The third biggest economy in the world today was (roughly) the sixth in 1941.

I would hope to see something more of a cross between the Marshall Plan

What, like a foreign cooperation administration, operating in territory under Allied jurisdiction, advising on how funds are spent?

and the Coalition helping the Cardassians to stand up their own government again. War crimes tribunals would need to be held, but I think that Cardassian participation would be key. I still think there'd be a lot of turmoil, but to me, carving up Cardassian territory would be the worst mistake possible. (I mean, letting the Klingons control parts of Cardassian territory as a province of their empire? Hell no. Not after what they did that, in my opinion, was partly responsible for STARTING the war in the first place!)

I dunno. If I were the Federation, I'd give the Klingons and Romulans their due. Particularly the Romulans, who according to Sloan anyway hadn't been effectively broken like the Klingons had been. I mean, if they're bent on territorial aggrandizement, it's not worth the effort for the Federation to not make reasonable accomodation for them.

Anyway, conditions on Cardassia Prime at least would have demanded a military government. You don't lose a billion people and most of your major cities in a day and form a new central govenrment in the next...

As for breaking subject worlds off, I wonder if they even have any. None were ever mentioned (other than Bajor). A lot of the big empires seem pretty unitary, with only hints here and there that much of anyone other than their principal species lives in 'em (the Remans, for example, who may just be Romulans, or Rura Penthe, which as the "aliens' graveyard" wouldn't have much use without an alien population to put there).

 

[DevilEyes]

and the Coalition helping the Cardassians to stand up their own government again. War crimes tribunals would need to be held, but I think that Cardassian participation would be key. I still think there'd be a lot of turmoil, but to me, carving up Cardassian territory would be the worst mistake possible. (I mean, letting the Klingons control parts of Cardassian territory as a province of their empire? Hell no. Not after what they did that, in my opinion, was partly responsible for STARTING the war in the first place!)

I dunno. If I were the Federation, I'd give the Klingons and Romulans their due. Particularly the Romulans, who according to Sloan anyway hadn't been effectively broken like the Klingons had been. I mean, if they're bent on territorial aggrandizement, it's not worth the effort for the Federation to not make reasonable accomodation for them.

I wouldn't, not to the Klingons, at least, unless I wanted Cardassians to immediately suffer another genocide. Not to mention things like making Cardassians hate the Federation as much as possible for a very long time in the future. That would be a very stupid as well as hypocritical policy (especially considering the fact that Nerys mentioned, that the Klingon Empire had attacked Cardassian Union and in large part provoked Cardassia's deal with the Dominion, as well as that the Cardassian rebellion against the Dominion ultimately helped turn the tide against the Dominion, at the cost of billion of Cardassian lives).

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

As for the German analogy... considering the close relations with the Klingons (especially under Chancellor Martok who maintained friendships with a lot of Starfleet officers), wouldn't it make sense to have one Cardassian state formed from the Federation and Klingon occupation zones (= USA/UK/France) and another from the Romulan zone (= Soviets)?

The Klingons could serve as an analogy to the French and to a lesser extent the Brits here, who had suffered most from the war and were most wary towards the Germans.

 

[Baconnaise]

I would think the federation would most likely have the most resources and inclination to absorb and protect a cardassian protectorate. It would make the federation more powerful over time and without an obsidian order cardassians would be easier to push to federation ways of thinking.

UFP is an empire like the others with some varying differences but an empire nonetheless.

 

[nx1701g]

Noncanonly the novels suggest that Cardassian territory was divided up between the Klingons and Romulans.

 

[Withers]

I honestly think that Gul Dukat got off easy considering that it was his decision (basically alone) that led to Cardassia joining the Dominion. Everyone else just had to follow along and when they stopped doing that they paid the consequences in terms of a genocide. Granted, it took them a while to come around, the Military couldn't even really be held responsible. We're talking about a one-man show here and that one man got "locked in the Fire Caves" unable to be punished or held accountable for his crimes.

The Female Changeling was the ultimate leader of the whole thing so it's good that they'll be able to try her. But I think a lot of people will hold resentment for Cardassia's behavior during the war and that resentment won't be quelled with any meaningful trials because of an absence of anyone of consequence to try.

-Withers-​

 

[DevilEyes]

I honestly think that Gul Dukat got off easy considering that it was his decision (basically alone) that led to Cardassia joining the Dominion. Everyone else just had to follow along and when they stopped doing that they paid the consequences in terms of a genocide. Granted, it took them a while to come around, the Military couldn't even really be held responsible. We're talking about a one-man show here and that one man got "locked in the Fire Caves" unable to be punished or held accountable for his crimes.

The Female Changeling was the ultimate leader of the whole thing so it's good that they'll be able to try her. But I think a lot of people will hold resentment for Cardassia's behavior during the war and that resentment won't be quelled with any meaningful trials because of an absence of anyone of consequence to try.

-Withers-​

Policies of the state are NEVER "a one man show". Those who "follow along" do that on their own responsability.

And it's not like everyone in Cardassian military turned against the Dominion.

 

[Withers]

He went from Chief Military Advisor to the Detapa Council to 'conducting secret negotiations with the Dominion' without any oversight. He seemingly swept the the civilian government aside with one hand and shook that of the Dominion with the other. While, perhaps, they rolled over a little too easily how do you really punish that?

They can charge every Glinn and Gul who didn't turn on the Dominion and they can even charge the former civilian government officials as co-conspirators of Gul Dukat but in the end that's just punishing the people who followed the orders not the people who gave them. Those people are either dead or locked in a Fire Cave when it comes to the Cardassian involvement in the war.

-Withers-​

 

[Withers]

He went from Chief Military Adviser to the Detapa Council to 'conducting secret negotiations with the Dominion' without any oversight. He seemingly swept the the civilian government aside with one hand and shook that of the Dominion with the other. While, perhaps, they rolled over a little too easily how do you really punish that?

They can charge every Glinn and Gul who didn't turn on the Dominion and they can even charge the former civilian government officials as co-conspirators of Gul Dukat but in the end that's just punishing the people who followed the orders not the people who gave them. Those people are either dead or locked in a Fire Cave when it comes to the Cardassian involvement in the war.

-Withers-​

 

[Hartzilla2007]

He went from Chief Military Advisor to the Detapa Council to 'conducting secret negotiations with the Dominion' without any oversight.

Actually it was from Chief Military Advisor to the Detapa Council to lowly freighter captain to unsanctioned fighter against the Klingons then to 'conducting secret negotiations with the Dominion' without any oversight.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah, I'm really hoping Cardassian territory wouldn't be carved up...that mistake was made with Germany and boy did it EVER cause problems for the Germans!

East Germans I'll grant. The FRG became probably the most prosperous country in Europe, and was permanently (I mean, at least so far) prevented from doing those things Germany was once known for (like killing large swathes of Poland and conquering France and Belgium). The upshot for Germany for the Anglo-American-French occupation was pretty much uniformly positive. I don't see why an occupation by the Federation, which is even nicer, would be worse.

As for the Soviet zone (and the analogous Romulan or Klingon zones), well, that was their problem. Though the abject surrender of Eastern Europe to the USSR is one of those few times I question FDR's judgment.

So a nation where one quarter of its territory is now thrown away to become slave to another totalitarian regime, while the rest prospers, is acceptable? Families separated and a nation in disunity? No matter how good it was in economic terms in West Germany, the truth is that people were simply thrown to the "mercy" of Stalin after what they'd just gone through with Hitler.

A Federation occupation might be "nice," in the economic sense, but if I were Cardassian--even if I lived in the Federation zone, there is NO way in hell I would trust the people who decided certain parts of my world needed to be thrown away to the Klingons, who want nothing more than to slaughter as many Cardassians as they can for the sake of their "glory." There is no reason to believe that the Klingons won't treat the Cardassians worse than dogs. And to know that my relatives, or even just some of my people in general, had been condemned to that sort of slavery by the Federation--I would be FURIOUS. And I would never harbor any warm feelings towards the Federation, no matter how many goodies they handed out...because of the idea that they see people as just that disposable, for the sake of political expediency.

The experience in Japan was, afaik, also pretty good. The third biggest economy in the world today was (roughly) the sixth in 1941.

Of course, Japan--as far as I know--wasn't split up the way Germany was.

and the Coalition helping the Cardassians to stand up their own government again. War crimes tribunals would need to be held, but I think that Cardassian participation would be key. I still think there'd be a lot of turmoil, but to me, carving up Cardassian territory would be the worst mistake possible. (I mean, letting the Klingons control parts of Cardassian territory as a province of their empire? Hell no. Not after what they did that, in my opinion, was partly responsible for STARTING the war in the first place!)

I dunno. If I were the Federation, I'd give the Klingons and Romulans their due. Particularly the Romulans, who according to Sloan anyway hadn't been effectively broken like the Klingons had been. I mean, if they're bent on territorial aggrandizement, it's not worth the effort for the Federation to not make reasonable accomodation for them.

WHAT?

The Dominion was bent on "territorial aggrandizement" and the proper response to that was WAR. The Federation absolutely should not appease Klingon or Romulan territorial grabs. It should be made clear to them: if they want any presence in the Cardassian Union, it must be part of a mixed coalition without any assignment of particular territories to particular empires, and with a coalition "council" of sorts making decisions that affect Cardassian territory together. Giving them autonomy in Cardassian territory would be a recipe for absolute disaster--not only because of the way the Cardassian people would suffer, but the fact that the Federation would be CONDONING from the Romulans and the Klingons what they fought against with the Dominion, simply because it is politically expedient.

Not to mention the serious problems with speaking of a bent for conquest as though it is a disability subject to "reasonable accommodation"...that is absolutely absurd.

Anyway, conditions on Cardassia Prime at least would have demanded a military government. You don't lose a billion people and most of your major cities in a day and form a new central govenrment in the next...

We don't know if ALL of their major cities were fully destroyed, or simply sustained damage. We also don't know the condition of all colony worlds, or what leaders might have been deployed to the Guard fleet and might have survived. It wouldn't be a day, but I actually think that in the 24th century, a provisional government would be up pretty fast.

and the Coalition helping the Cardassians to stand up their own government again. War crimes tribunals would need to be held, but I think that Cardassian participation would be key. I still think there'd be a lot of turmoil, but to me, carving up Cardassian territory would be the worst mistake possible. (I mean, letting the Klingons control parts of Cardassian territory as a province of their empire? Hell no. Not after what they did that, in my opinion, was partly responsible for STARTING the war in the first place!)

I dunno. If I were the Federation, I'd give the Klingons and Romulans their due. Particularly the Romulans, who according to Sloan anyway hadn't been effectively broken like the Klingons had been. I mean, if they're bent on territorial aggrandizement, it's not worth the effort for the Federation to not make reasonable accomodation for them.

I wouldn't, not to the Klingons, at least, unless I wanted Cardassians to immediately suffer another genocide. Not to mention things like making Cardassians hate the Federation as much as possible for a very long time in the future. That would be a very stupid as well as hypocritical policy (especially considering the fact that Nerys mentioned, that the Klingon Empire had attacked Cardassian Union and in large part provoked Cardassia's deal with the Dominion, as well as that the Cardassian rebellion against the Dominion ultimately helped turn the tide against the Dominion, at the cost of billion of Cardassian lives).

QFT!

 

[ProtoAvatar]

A Federation occupation might be "nice," in the economic sense, but if I were Cardassian--even if I lived in the Federation zone, there is NO way in hell I would trust the people who decided certain parts of my world needed to be thrown away to the Klingons, who want nothing more than to slaughter as many Cardassians as they can for the sake of their "glory."

Nerys Ghemor, you assume the Federation is the only important player, that it can make all relevant decisions without considering what the klingons or the romulans want.
This is obviously incorrect.

The Klingons and the romulans will definitely want their share of cardassian spoils of war. And if the Federation refuses, it could lead to a new war - at the very least, a new cold war - between klingons, romulans and the Federation.

Let us be clear on one point - the Federation ows the cardassians ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
More than one time in the past, the Federation tried to build a peaceful relation to the cardasian union - and each time, the cardassians met these attempts with scorn and aggression.
And now, after the latest (and gravest) cardassian aggresion against the Fedetation is over, the cardassians expect the Federation to fight wars for their sake? The cardassians think they have THE RIGHT TO ASK THIS OF THE FEDERATION?

If the cardassians want someone to blame for their situation, they should look at their own leaders (consistently supported by the cardassian population) who repeatedly rejected Federation friendship because it negated their imperialistic goals. Who accepted the dominion as an ally because it gave the cardassians the illusion that they'll finally crush the Federation - choosing to overlook the fact that the dominion doesn't have allies, but only subject species.
And each time the Federation helps them, the cardassians should remember that this help is a gift the Federation is under no obligation to give!

 

[DevilEyes]

Let us be clear on one point - the Federation ows the cardassians ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
More than one time in the past, the Federation tried to build a peaceful relation to the cardasian union - and each time, the cardassians met these attempts with scorn and aggression.
And now, after the latest (and gravest) cardassian aggresion against the Fedetation is over, the cardassians expect the Federation to fight wars for their sake? The cardassians think they have THE RIGHT TO ASK THIS OF THE FEDERATION?

The Cardassians probably ask or expect NOTHING from the Federation. If I were to hazard a guess, most Cardassians are more likely to expect the Federation to do exactly what you're suggesting. Apart from a possible minority that might believe that Federation really sticks to it self-proclaimed ideals, it's more likely that most Cardassians are used to thinking about the Federation as another enemy empire bent on expansion, as hostile to Cardassia as the Klingons or Romulans, only more hypocritical about its motives and methods. An opinion which the Federation would confirm by doing what you suggest.

It's the Federation itself that should ask and expect itself to behave differently, if all those proclamations about Federation ideals and morals have any basis in reality, and unless Federation and Starfleet authorities aren't just nothing by big hypocrites.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Let us be clear on one point - the Federation ows the cardassians ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
More than one time in the past, the Federation tried to build a peaceful relation to the cardasian union - and each time, the cardassians met these attempts with scorn and aggression.
And now, after the latest (and gravest) cardassian aggresion against the Fedetation is over, the cardassians expect the Federation to fight wars for their sake? The cardassians think they have THE RIGHT TO ASK THIS OF THE FEDERATION?

The Cardassians probably ask or expect NOTHING from the Federation. If I were to hazard a guess, most Cardassians are more likely to expect the Federation to do exactly what you're suggesting. Apart from a possible minority that might believe that Federation really sticks to it self-proclaimed ideals, it's more likely that most Cardassians are used to thinking about the Federation as another enemy empire bent on expansion, as hostile to Cardassia as the Klingons or Romulans, only more hypocritical about its motives and methods. An opinion which the Federation would confirm by doing what you suggest.

It's the Federation itself that should ask and expect itself to behave differently, if all those proclamations about Federation ideals and morals have any basis in reality, and unless Federation and Starfleet authorities aren't just nothing by big hypocrites.

About the Federation upholding its ideals - the DS9 scenarists (and, to a lesser extent, the TNG/etc ones) were inspired enough to NOT make the trekverse a morally perfect universe.

That is, sometimes, the choice is the lesser evil between two evils.
An example - the Federation allying itself with the klingons, despite the imperialistic ways of these klingons - a continuing federation/klingon war would have caused much more death and suffering than this alliance allowed; indeed, there are signs that, recently, the klingon empire started to adopt more humanitarian values, or, if you prefer, that 'honor' started to become more than just a convenient excuse for anything.

Other examples - The Federation didn't attack all powers who acted contrary to its ideals, in order to stop their immoral ways. You see, that would change absolutely nothing, besides creating more death and suffering and leading to the fall of the Federation due to numerous wars.

At present:
"The Klingons and the romulans will definitely want their share of cardassian spoils of war. And if the Federation refuses, it could lead to a new war - at the very least, a new cold war - between klingons, romulans and the Federation."
Morally, a war - or cold war - between the Federation and klingons/romulans would cause much more death and suffering than giving the klingons and romulans the gains for which their soldiers died (I guarantee klingon/romulan soldiers didn't die in order to uphold moral ideals).

As for the rest - you say "The Cardassians probably ask or expect NOTHING from the Federation."
Good.
This means the cardassians don't expect the Federation to fight a long, bloody war for them, federation citizens to die just so that cardasssian teritory doesn't go to klingons or romulans.
It also means that when klingons and romulans occupy their share of cardassian real-estate, cardassians won't go on an egocentric, arrogant tirade of "~Why doesn't the Federation fight them for us! The Federation has the obligation to fight our wars for us - because we're cardassians!

If the cardassians think "about the Federation as another enemy empire bent on expansion, as hostile to Cardassia as the Klingons or Romulans, only more hypocritical about its motives and methods" because the Federation doesn't send its citizens to death, doesn't provoke the maximum possible amount of death and suffering for the sake of cardassians who just tried to DESTROY THE FEDERATION, let them think so. Contrary to what you think, it doesn't make the cardassians right - NOT EVEN CLOSE.