Midnight's Edge - Star Trek 4 has lost investor funding

[Malaika]

Things like Michael, her connection to Spock and a lot of other things about discovery are all Bryan Fuller's ideas.
I remember, from his own comments, that he originally wanted the show to be an anthology series where each season represented its own series with a beginning and end. So for instance, the first would be 10 years before tos, the next season would be set in tng era and so on. Instead, CBS decided to use only the story of the first season and make the whole show about it.
The problem with his original idea is the budget because he'd need new sets and casting for every season since the main characters would always be different.

I also read something about his ideas being too controversial and CBS wanting to keep it more tos safe and conservative, but honestly I see the opposite of that. Their only fault right now in terms of going backwards and nostalgia is this whole connection to Spock and bringing both him and Pike to the show in a seemingly obvious attempt to placate old fans (tho ironically old fans are the ones more likely to hate their retconning Spock). They might end up alienating the fans of the new characters who want to see more of these stories (if Pike and Spock get too much screentime).

 

[Smellmet]

I don't mind Pike and Spock showing up in the series but to have Micheal connected in this way is my biggest problem with the show. It just feels like they can't or won't let go of the past and are squeezing all they can out of TOS, to the detriment of the show, and canon. It's my only real problem with it for now though. I think season 2 has made a great start otherwise.

 

[fireproof78]

It just feels like they can't or won't let go of the past and are squeezing all they can out of TOS

Seeing as how TOS is the most under presented era of Star Trek in terms of screen time I don't see how this is a problem.

 

[drt]

It's also the version with the most nostalgia currently associated, so i can see why the "suits" would believe that that time period is the most viable commercially.

With 90s stuff currently enjoying a nostalgia window, one would think TNG should start getting more love (which is probably why the Picard show was greenlit), but i'm not seeing it particularly widespread at the moment.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't mind Pike and Spock showing up in the series but to have Micheal connected in this way is my biggest problem with the show.

It's the most fanwanky premise ever. But as soon as you accept it and just go, "okay, this is a version of Trek where everything looks modern and Spock had a human sister" (like Smallville was "Superman but where Clark Kent and Lex Luthor were friends as teens") it's fun.

It's if you try and pretend it's the same world as The Original Series you have a mental breakdown. Because then it really is doing a disservice to Trek's most famous character ever, giving him a page one rewrite and changing his motivations and backstory.

 

[fireproof78]

It's if you try and pretend it's the same world as The Original Series you have a mental breakdown.

I haven't.

ETA:
With all due credit to Greg Cox the below sums up my feelings perfectly. No, a prequel doesn't have to perfectly line up with everything that comes before, nor has DSC some how violated some sacred element that negates it from being in the same continuity of TOS. It's not mental gymnastics-it's a TV show with all the latitude that goes along with it.

I'm sorry, this is nonsense. When did we reach the point where we're so obsessive about "canon" that, unless a franchise maintains 100% perfect continuity, plot-wise, visually, whatever, sequels and prequels don't exist "in the same universe" and aren't really sequels and prequels? Even though the obvious intent is that ENT or DISCO are prequels to TOS.

More importantly, why even worry about this? What possible difference does it make? Every movie or TV series since the silent era has its fair share of discrepancies or inconsistencies. Doesn't mean that every third sequel or prequel ever made is actually a reboot set in a different universe just because they changed the sets and costumes or whatever, or because they retconned a plot point from one of the previous movies.

Is THE WRATH OF KHAN not really a sequel to "Space Seed" because Khan's multi-ethnic crew from the TV episode have inexplicably morphed into a bunch of blond Aryan types? Of course not. Are TNG and GENERATIONS set in different universes because Scotty's guest-appearances don't quite match up? Are TNG and DS9 in different universes because Dax bears no resemblance to the Trills on TNG--and has borrowed her look from "The Perfect Mate" instead?

These are movies and TV shows made by dozens of different people over the course of fifty-plus years. Of course they're not going to match up perfectly, nor should they be expected to. And not every deviation requires an in-universe explanation, especially when a common sense, real-world explanation is perfectly adequate.

Occam's Razor applies here: which explanation is simplest?

A) They updated the art direction . . because, you know, it's a TV show, not reality.
B) IT'S A WHOLE NEW UNIVERSE!!!!

Honestly, Option A is good enough for me. Why not just relax, take the prequels as prequels, as they're intended, and stopping fretting about whether this make-believe universe is 100% consistent all the time.

 

[donners22]

If you need to rationalise inconsistencies and retcons in that way, you’ll have to go back way before Discovery. First Contact must be in a separate timeline to TNG since it retcons Best of Both Worlds, DS9 must be in a different timeline to TNG as it retcons Trill and Bajorans, TOS must be in a different timeline to everything else as the Romulans look different, etc.

I’d rather just enjoy them as shows.

 

[Smellmet]

Seeing as how TOS is the most under presented era of Star Trek in terms of screen time I don't see how this is a problem.

I just wish the franchise would look forward, not back. Do something new instead of bloody prequels.

That being said I am enjoying the show so far so it's only a complaint in principle more than anything.

 

[fireproof78]

I just wish the franchise would look forward, not back. Do something new instead of bloody prequels.

That being said I am enjoying the show so far so it's only a complaint in principle more than anything.

I can understand that, I suppose, on principle. I just think that the TOS era, and Pike in particular, is as good of a place to explore as any.

 

[Smellmet]

I can understand that, I suppose, on principle. I just think that the TOS era, and Pike in particular, is as good of a place to explore as any.

Like I said I don't have a huge problem with it being a prequel to TOS, it's just after Enterprise and the Kelvin films I think I'd just prefer something post Nemesis for a change where they can literally do anything they want (which it looks like we're getting with the Picard show now to be fair) I don't even mind Pike or even Spock showing up, it's Burnham being this relation to Spock I've got beef with, it just seems so 'tacked on' and contrived. Sybok appearing in TFF without ever being mentioned before was bad enough, but this is a step too far for me.

However, it looks like they are going to at least try and do something interesting and a little mysterious with their relationship from what I've seen so far, so maybe I'll be proved wrong. Like I said, I'm enjoying the show otherwise - I think these first two episodes have been quite spectacular at times.

 

[fireproof78]

it's Burnham being this relation to Spock I've got beef with, it just seems so 'tacked on' and contrived. Sybok appearing in TFF without ever being mentioned before was bad enough, but this is a step too far for me.

Fair enough. This is obviously a mileage will vary moment. While I agree that Burnham being connected to Spock is a bit of a stretch, thus far, I think the show has handled it decently enough.

Now, I'll also admit my bias. Berman era Trek doesn't interest me like TOS era does. The idea of post Nemesis is not one that interests me, largely because I see technology becoming more magical and less grounded, and that simply doesn't engage for me.

I'm hoping the Picard series proves me wrong but I am skeptical, to say the least.

 

[ALF]

I just wish the franchise would look forward, not back. Do something new instead of bloody prequels.

I'm hoping the Picard series proves me wrong but I am skeptical, to say the least.

It's wholly remarkable that the Picard series will be set post-Nemesis because a great deal of us have been clamoring for a return to that time frame. Not being a prequel series or a prequel of a prequel? Check and check. The closer we get to premiere, the excitement for this will grow. It's best chance they have to gain new viewers at the expense of alienating old ones.

I was sure Midnight's Edge was a Magic the Gathering card, turns out it isn't.

 

[Rahul]

Now, I'll also admit my bias. Berman era Trek doesn't interest me like TOS era does. The idea of post Nemesis is not one that interests me, largely because I see technology becoming more magical and less grounded, and that simply doesn't engage for me.

This one is a bit of a conondrum for me: Like you, I prefer the TOS and TOS movie-era over the Berman era. Mostly because of the adventurous style, and it also felt much more hands-on than anything later, where everything was touch screens and force-fields.

But by all accounts: DIS is much, much "more magical and lesss grounded" than any of the Berman era shows! Any hull-breach gets immediately sealed by magical force-fields, entire fleets are immediately in the range of the border, the shuttle-bay doesn't need decompression, but shuttles just zap through another force-field, their space-suits are these amazing Iron Man-technologies that unfold out of thin air, holodecks - and, yeah, even the tiny shuttles are warp capable!

By all accounts: DIS is probably the most technologically advanced Trek show of them all! Not even counting the spore drive! In fact, this show feels so, so much like a Berman-era show technologically, it would really make much more sense to be set post-NEM!

 

[fireproof78]

But by all accounts: DIS is much, much "more magical and lesss grounded" than any of the Berman era shows! Any hull-breach gets immediately sealed by magical force-fields, entire fleets are immediately in the range of the border, the shuttle-bay doesn't need decompression, but shuttles just zap through another force-field, their space-suits are these amazing Iron Man-technologies that unfold out of thin air, holodecks - and, yeah, even the tiny shuttles are warp capable!

Other than the forcefields I don't see this as much of an issue. The shuttle bay is an anomaly but not magical, at least to me. Warp Drive continues to be "speed of plot" (unfortunately), and I did not quite interpret the space suits the way you are.

Now, that all said, the trouble I see with post-NEM isn't just in the forcefields, but in the AI development, sentient holograms, transwarp networks, medical cures for many different things, that render a lot of problems as obsolete.

Now, I might need to revisit TOS to look at the tech, but I think the larger implications of post-NEM tech are far more concerning than what I have seen with DSC. DSC feels pretty rote for Star Trek.

 

[Rahul]

Other than the forcefields I don't see this as much of an issue. The shuttle bay is an anomaly but not magical, at least to me. Warp Drive continues to be "speed of plot" (unfortunately), and I did not quite interpret the space suits the way you are.

Not really an issue, just a thing I noticed. But the visuals of the shuttles flying through the forcefield is straight out of "Nemesis"! In fact, all the technology has the same level as in Nemesis: The "Star Trek" technology.

Now, that all said, the trouble I see with post-NEM isn't just in the forcefields, but in the AI development, ...

Which is actually realistic. In fact, I would really love it if Trek dealt more with A.I. again. TOS did that regularly, TNG only (but very thoroughly) with Data, VOY had an attempt with the holograms, and then they kinda' dropped it... Even though this is the defining challenge of the 21st century...

...sentient holograms, ...

It's just A.I. with a user interface. In a world where A.I. exists, this is really not out of the ordinary. DIS has holograms too. Having them be used by an A.I. makes only sense. And Starfleet kind of stopped having the "Doctors" MEH's running around.

Also: 'Calypso' - DIS already had it's very own intelligent hologram!

...transwarp networks, ...

None of which are created or currently in use by the Federation.

Also: DIS' spore drive is WAY above that.

...medical cures for many different things, ...

At least they didn't render "death by radiation" obsolete by a magic blood transfusion.

...that render a lot of problems as obsolete.

But seriously: The problems are created by the plot, not the solutions. All "common" illnesses are already cured in the Trek-verse anyway. What creates the problem of the week are alien and mutated medical problems.

Also: McCoy was able to whip out a cure for a completely exotic and unknown illness on a weekly basis since the 60s. This is really nothing new to Trek.

Now, I might need to revisit TOS to look at the tech, but I think the larger implications of post-NEM tech are far more concerning than what I have seen with DSC.

I don't really agree here - DIS functions on the same fundamental mechanics as "First Contact", "Insurrection" and mostly "Nemesis". There is really no difference in the technologies used in any of them. Whereas there were significant differences between TOS and TNG, which are now made all obsolete, because the advancements of TNG have retro-actively been introduced in the TOS-era with DIS.

All things considered, DIS would fit much, much better in the TNG era, were it not for the character connections of Spock, Sarek and now Pike.

DSC feels pretty rote for Star Trek.

Yes. Because it's still "Star Trek". On a fundamental level, it all works the same - weather it's called "photonic torpedo", "photon torpedo", "quantum torpedo", "shields" or "adaptive hull plating" - it all follows the same internal rules. The rules of the Star Trek universe. Sadly DIS now only squished the technological differences between the eras even more, by retroactively introducing all the common 24th century ones into the 23rd one.

Woah.
That turned out way longer than expected.
Sorry for that!

 

[fireproof78]

At least they didn't render "death by radiation" obsolete by a magic blood transfusion.

I'll respond to the rest but this one is a "Yeah, no," and beating a dead horse.

 

[Rahul]

I'll respond to the rest but this one is a "Yeah, no," and beating a dead horse.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yeah, I figured

 

[Mirror Tuvix]

it's fun.

 

[M'Sharak]

'K, we've reached the stage where this thread stopped being about the original topic altogether and has been meandering around aimlessly for a while now being about whatever.

A longer post about watching Discovery, edited down to just two words in order to post a "bored face" image as the entire response? Yeah, time to pull the plug.