Michael Jan Friedman novels

[F. King Daniel]

I can understand why people might say the latter about aliens being reused from the TV show. But are there really any races from the novels that people have complained about being overused?

Probably!

I've certainly seen complaints of "Why did the author invent a whole new race when they could have used Canonical Race X?" and "Why did the author use Canonical Race Y when they could have invented some new alien?"

Similar to "Why did the author invent a new Starfleet admiral when they could have used Nogura?" and "Why did the author use Admiral Nogura/Noguchi/Hayes/Necheyev when they could have invented some new admiral?"

(*Steals idea for thread*)

 

[kkozoriz1]

I can understand why people might say the latter about aliens being reused from the TV show. But are there really any races from the novels that people have complained about being overused?

Probably!

I've certainly seen complaints of "Why did the author invent a whole new race when they could have used Canonical Race X?" and "Why did the author use Canonical Race Y when they could have invented some new alien?"

Similar to "Why did the author invent a new Starfleet admiral when they could have used Nogura?" and "Why did the author use Admiral Nogura/Noguchi/Hayes/Necheyev when they could have invented some new admiral?"

In the case of Nogura in Vanguard, the admiral is to be a major character. Using a character we know to be alive and well and running Starfleet a few years down the line limits the drama. You might as well give him a red cape and put a big S on his chest.

We've already had M'Benga and we've got Terrell. How many connections back to Kirk do we need?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Using a character we know to be alive and well and running Starfleet a few years down the line limits the drama.

Such lack of trust. A climb to inevitable power can be just as interesting whether you know the outcome or not.

Otherwise, why didn't they stop doing TOS novels altogether once "Generations" came out?

 

[Christopher]

I don't buy the argument that it "limits the drama" to know a given character won't die. Everyone who watched an episode of TOS back in the '60s knew that the heroes wouldn't die at the end, or that if they appeared to die, it would be reversed somehow. That's pretty much a given in any ongoing series, most of the time. You know the heroes will survive, but you choose to buy into the conceit of danger for the duration of the story. The interest is in seeing how they survive and triumph, not just whether. It's like watching sports. If the only thing that mattered were knowing whether your team won or lost, there'd be no reason to waste hours watching the game -- you could just read the results in the paper afterward. You watch because it's not just about whether they win, it's about experiencing the struggle along with them.

Besides, it's not as if a character's death or avoidance thereof is the only possible thing to tell a story about. There are many other sources of drama. For instance, in "Court-martial," what was more dramatic and engaging to the viewer -- the question of whether Ben Finney would kill Kirk in their obligatory tacked-on fistfight, or the question of whether Kirk's career and reputation would be ruined? If it were only the latter, why even bother with the preceding forty minutes of story? What makes drama isn't just physical danger, but emotional danger. Drama comes from a character having something to lose, something that's meaningful to them. There are lots of things other than just staying alive that are meaningful to people, lots of things they can be hurt by losing -- their relationships, their reputations, their ideals, their confidence, you name it. Even if death is involved, it can be the death of somebody else, someone they loved or were responsible for, that's most devastating to a character.

I also question whether Nogura and Terrell really count as "connections back to Kirk." Sure, Nogura was Kirk's boss for nearly three years, but he was the boss of everybody in Starfleet. And let's not forget that Nogura never even appeared onscreen in TOS; he was just mentioned in passing in one movie. So it's a stretch even to consider him a TOS character. As for Terrell, he explicitly stated in TWOK that "I've never even met Admiral Kirk." Their only direct interaction was on Regula I and the planetoid, and Terrell wasn't even himself then.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The novels aren't the TV shows. We shouldn't expect people to be the same each time, especially with the tighter continuity. I'd rather see a an established character that we don't know their future. Bring in Komack or Stocker or whoever else we didn't see or hear about after their TOS appearance. I'd rather see where someone is going rather than where they've been.

Of course death isn't the only drama but we know Nogura will be a live, will have continued on a productive career and be promoted within the next few years.

I'm using Kirk as a symbol for TOS. Let's not forget Carol and David are on Vanguard as well. I'd rather prior characters be used as seasoning rather than having many be the main ingredients. One or two is OK. Five, previously seven (counting D'Amatos wife) is pushing small universe time.

 

[William Leisner]

I'd rather prior characters be used as seasoning rather than having many be the main ingredients. One or two is OK. Five, previously seven (counting D'Amatos wife) is pushing small universe time.

How can the use of D'Amato's wife be using a prior character as a "main ingredient" when a) she's killed halfway through the only book she appears in, and b) she never appeared on screen!?! Or for that matter, c) it was never even implied at any time on screen that D'Amato had ever been married?!

 

[kkozoriz1]

I'm not saying that she was a main character. However, it was another connection back to TOS. If we'd stuck with that and not added Nogura & the Marcus' it would have been fine. Not everything in a TOS setting has to have a connection to the Enterprise.

Let's not forget that Gorkon has also become a fairly major character of late. Granted, he's going to be chancellor but it's getting awfully crowded with TOS connected characters.

 

[JD]

I actually feel the complete opposite about all of this. I've really enjoyed getting to see some of these characters histories. I find it just as interesting to find out about a character's past as I do finding out about their futures. Especially when it's an important character like Gorkons, the Marcuses, and T'Prynn.
So what do you think of T'Prynn's inclusion into the series? We know she'll live for another 80 something years.

 

[Turtletrekker]

^Spoilers!

 

[kkozoriz1]

I actually feel the complete opposite about all of this. I've really enjoyed getting to see some of these characters histories. I find it just as interesting to find out about a character's past as I do finding out about their futures. Especially when it's an important character like Gorkons, the Marcuses, and T'Prynn.
So what do you think of T'Prynn's inclusion into the series? We know she'll live for another 80 something years.

She's a fairly minor character in the 24th century series. We don't know a whole lot about her. We're finding out how she got to where she is in the 24th century. Nogura's already an Admiral. He is running Starfleet in a few years. He just seems to be a limited sort of character to me.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it's getting awfully crowded with TOS connected characters.

It has to be. A TOS fan picking up a "Vanguard" novel, set during TOS, as their first ever media tie-in novel is going to be expecting at least some canonical characters to feature in order for it to be a licensed media tie-in of Star Trek: The Original Series.

Even "New Frontier" has/had Shelby, Selar, Lefler, Jellico, a Mugato, someone who may or may not be Pike's Number One, Arex, M'Ress, and Spock, Riker and Picard as major guest stars. When PAD was putting together his crew, IIRC, he was requested to include Shelby and other characters of his choosing - and then he requested Paramount if they were done with Selar and Lefler.

 

[Christopher]

...but it's getting awfully crowded with TOS connected characters.

Well, what did you expect when you saw a series of books with Star Trek in the title???? They're called "tie-ins" because they tie in! The specific purpose of the Vanguard series is to offer a different perspective on events from TOS, to reveal the larger framework of events that ties together things that were just isolated episodes in TOS. Its purpose was not to divorce itself absolutely from any remote connection to TOS. If that had been its intent, it wouldn't have been published as Star Trek fiction at all.

I've told you this before -- given your seemingly profound hostility to even the tiniest hint of interconnectedness between different fictional works, you're only going to face frustration if you continue reading tie-in fiction, because interconnectedness is quite obviously going to be the whole point of a thing that's named "tie-in fiction." You insist on asking for something that you should know by now you're never going to get from any book entitled Star Trek. So why keep looking in the wrong place? There are thousands and thousands of original science fiction novels out there, novels that exist entirely in their own universes with no connection to anything else.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I'm not opposed to "the tiniest hint". I.m opposed to "let's hit people over the head with the fact that this is Star Trek". The novels could take a page from the series and limit the amount of crossover between series. Not everyone on DS9 was originally on TNG. We got the O'Brien's and later Worf. Voyager didn't even have that, being all new characters.

Need an Admiral? Take a page from DS9 and create a new one like Ross.

Besides, since the novels have Star Trek on the covers and usually have a recognizable starship and the station on the cover people should get the concept that this is related to but not the same as TOS.

It's overdoing the connectedness, not any connectedness at all that is annoying.

And in regards to the snarky comment about reading original fiction, I'll put my library up against yours any day Christopher. Trust me on this. I've been reading original fiction since before you were born.

 

[DarKush]

One issue with him was he would create some cool species and never revisit them like the Nuyyad.

Urajel broke her arm in an encounter with the Nuyyad [in The Next Generation novel Valiant (2000), but a factoid not revealed until Stargazer: Gauntlet.]

See, this is somewhere where the authors really just can't win. For every person who says "The Nuyyad were cool; we should have seen them again", someone else will say "Can't MJF invent some new aliens?"

Well that's not really revisiting the species, though thanks for bringing up the additional Nuyyad mention. I'm not certain your argument works for me, especially when the aliens are just introduced and not fleshed out. Now, if its an alien species that he's covered more in depth, I can see that argument holding more water. But as it stands, the Nuyyad were featured in one novel, but not explored all that much, and then mentioned as the cause of a crew member's injury in another novel. The Nuyyad are still 'new' aliens for the fact that we still know little about them.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Of course death isn't the only drama but we know Nogura will be a live, will have continued on a productive career and be promoted within the next few years.

I'm a bit wary of the small-universe syndrome that sometimes does appear to exist in some Trek novels. But as Christopher says, we never saw Nogura onscreen in a Trek movie or episode. Thus, for all we know, he could be blinded, crippled, scarred or otherwise suffer some serious trauma in the novels and this wouldn't contradict what (little) we know about him. There's an awful lot of dramatic scope still left open to the writers.

 

[Christopher]

^Or there could be plenty of drama in the question of why Nogura ends up moving from starbase command to a desk job on Earth. Just to make a suggestive analogy, why did Ben Sisko go from starship duty to a ground assignment? Because he lost his wife. Career change can often be a response to tragedy, failure, or other dramatic things.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I remember one of Roddenberry's rules when TNG started was "No Vulcans". In other words, do something new and different. The original characters in Vanguard are the best part of the series. A sprinkling of the old is fine and even appropriate. But, just because it's tie-in fiction doesn't mean that you have to go overboard in going "Look! It's the same universe a TOS!" We get it.

 

[Thrawn]

^ In your opinion. I thought adding Nogura to the mix was inspired. It instantly made Vanguard feel even more important; if he goes from this to running Starfleet, then he's going to have to accomplish things here that are worthy of him being given that role. It means he's not just going to be a patsy in place until Reyes gets the job back, which would be the cliched thing to do. It brought gravitas to a character that might've existed just as a place-holder.

That's using a tie-in to an established universe perfectly - it instantly adds context to what might've been a difficult dramatic choice, anchors it, and wins over the reader (or at least me) much faster to a perhaps controversial plot point.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I just see Vanguard as having too many TOS tie-ins. I guess it's a question of degrees.

It's not at the tipping point for me because, for the most part, Vanguard has been excellent. However, if it becomes the "We're the guys that are used to set up the movies" then I could see vanguard joining the 24th century books on my drop list. I'd hate for that to happen but you never know. It's got a great storyline with the Tholians, Klingons and the Shedai. Too much "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" foreshadowing will get old really fast.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I remember one of Roddenberry's rules when TNG started was "No Vulcans". In other words, do something new and different.

And they did.

But it didn't take too much convincing to see some Vulcan extras in "Encounter at Farpoint", an expansion of Worf's part (he isn't even mentioned in the first "bible", just that the Klingons had an alliance with Starfleet), someone with pointed ears from "Vulcana Regar" in the first season, then a Vulcan admiral, and the addition of Dr Selar in Season Two (with the hope that she'd be a recurring character). Berman also said no to "hokey" Andorians in TNG, but even they got there eventually: rejected from "Conspiracy" (became Bolians instead), then shown in "The Offspring" and "Captain's Holiday".

Sometimes it's important to appease the majority of your audience.

A sprinkling of the old is fine and even appropriate. But, just because it's tie-in fiction doesn't mean that you have to go overboard in going "Look! It's the same universe a TOS!" We get it.

Yep. It's a Star Trek tie-in. And for some fans, it will be their first ever purchase of a ST tie-in - and if it doesn't have enough known Star Trek characters to meet their expectations, they'll be disappointed.