Michael Jan Friedman novels

[Starbreaker]

I'm always impressed when an author can bring back (or just reference) a character from the series or an earlier and have it not be "hokey." I was completely surprised by the appearance of Hugh in Greater than the Sum. It could have been fanboyish, but it worked.

On the other hand,the Vendetta references in Before Dishonor were silly.


I wonder how long it takes MJF to show up? He logged in sometime in April..

 

[Therin of Andor]

On the other hand,the Vendetta references in Before Dishonor were silly.

PAD's Borg novel should have ignored his previous Borg novel?

And when you buy a PAD book "silly" is a given. It's why some of us look forward to his work.

 

[Greg Cox]

See, this is somewhere where the authors really just can't win. For every person who says "The Nuyyad were cool; we should have seen them again", someone else will say "Can't MJF invent some new aliens?"

For the record, I keep getting fan mail asking me to write another book about the genetically-engineered colony in my Eugenics books, and about Ceti Alpha V exiles in TO REIGN IN HELL, and yet another book about Gary Seven and Roberta . . .

 

[JD]

I just see Vanguard as having too many TOS tie-ins. I guess it's a question of degrees.

It's not at the tipping point for me because, for the most part, Vanguard has been excellent. However, if it becomes the "We're the guys that are used to set up the movies" then I could see vanguard joining the 24th century books on my drop list. I'd hate for that to happen but you never know. It's got a great storyline with the Tholians, Klingons and the Shedai. Too much "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" foreshadowing will get old really fast.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I've under the impression that the "wink-wink nudge-nudge" foreshadowing was part of the indea behind the series. And I'm sorry, but I really don't see where 4 (T'Prynn, Nogura, M'Benga, Marcus)out of 13 major characters (Nogura, Reyes, Desai, Fisher, M'Benga, Xiong, Jetanien, Anna/Lurqal, Pennington, Quinn, Ganz, Zett, Marcus,) is over doing it. That's a much smaller percentage than any of the other lit series.

 

[Christopher]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I've under the impression that the "wink-wink nudge-nudge" foreshadowing was part of the indea behind the series.

Putting it crudely, but essentially right. While certainly it was meant to tell a strong story of its own, it was also intended from the beginning to reveal the context and foundations behind key events of TOS and the movies. And it has very successfully managed to balance both those things all along.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I've under the impression that the "wink-wink nudge-nudge" foreshadowing was part of the indea behind the series.

Putting it crudely, but essentially right. While certainly it was meant to tell a strong story of its own, it was also intended from the beginning to reveal the context and foundations behind key events of TOS and the movies. And it has very successfully managed to balance both those things all along.

The balance is slightly out of whack, leaning too much towards the foreshadowing. It's pretty much just pointing at the movies while glossing over parts of TOS that could have been used as well. All in all, nor too bad but the original story is much more involving to me.

 

[F. King Daniel]

On the other hand,the Vendetta references in Before Dishonor were silly.

Before Dishonor was essentially a belated sequel to Vendetta - of course it was gonna mention it!

I was especially thrilled that Geordi brought up his proto-Seven, Reanon Bonaventure. Having read the TNG relaunch backwards, I was annoyed that she didn't get a mention in Destiny when Geordi was listing Borg that the Federation had tried to rescue over the years (it turns out she wasn't mentioned because David Mack never read Vendetta)

 

[seigezunt]

I remember being quite disappointed by the Brothers Keeper books, and I cringed at what he did to McCoy's divorce story in Shadows on the Sun. It felt out of character to me, and took away from the original weight of the story. Besides being utterly predictable. That said, I'd like to read Vendetta.

 

[Sci]

Personally, I think it's a stretch to say that including some incredibly minor characters from TOS (M'Benga, Terrel, and Nogura) somehow constitutes having too many TOS links.

 

[kkozoriz1]

It's not the use of TOS characters, it's the number of conenctions that can be traced back to Kirk & company. It makes vanguard seem like a supporting charcter to TOS rather than being a seperate series set in the same universe.

TMP - Nogura
TWOK - Carol, David, Genesis, Terrell
TSFS - David, Genesis
TVH - Genesis
TFF - Nimbus III
TUC - Gorkon

Those are the ones just off the top of my head. I'd prefer a series stand on it's own rather than being used to simply set up what we already know. There can some foreshadowing but it should be done in moderation. I guess the definition of moderation is what's being argued.

 

[David Mack]

^ The problem is that you've fundamentally misunderstood the idea behind the Vanguard series. It was set up as an alternative perspective on the events of TOS, to show how events depicted in TOS affected events elsewhere, and vice-versa.

Essentially, we're creating the "shadow history" of the TOS era, showing how events earlier in the lives of many characters contributed to their later roles in the movie era and beyond.

At any rate, your (incomplete) list in the post above, which you seem to think proves an overabundance of connections to TOS, is paltry when compared to the full dramatis personae of the Vanguard saga, which is populated by dozens of fully original characters, ships, and situations. Also, the characters you've listed play only supporting roles in the saga; the principal roles are played by our original characters.

As for your assertion that a series should "stand on its own," that's not really possible with a Star Trek-based series. The entire idea behind a tie-in line of books is to connect them to, and expand upon, the canon property. Even the New Frontier series has numerous links back to TNG, TOS, and occasionally even DS9.

If the approach we've taken to Vanguard doesn't suit your taste, or if you're less than satisfied with the execution, then I'm sorry the books don't work for you. But your insistence on painting them as some sort of continuity porn is, in my opinion as the series' co-creator, unjustified and misleading to potential new readers.

 

[kkozoriz1]

For the most part, the series works just fine. Having a second series set in the TOS era is a great idea and one that, for the most part, Vanguard has handled really well. However, it seems that at times the main thrust of the story is to act as a supporting character to TOS. It's like having a great supporting actor get his own series on TV and every two to three episodes we get a "special guest star" or some such. Imagine if Frasier had continually had Cheers actors showing up. We got Lilith once a year and the others, with the exception of Diane, showed up once during an 11 year run.

TNG managed to stand on it's own and acknowledged TOS with a nice, quiet two person scene. It then went off on it's own for a number of years for the most part (I think everyone can agree that The Naked Now was a mistake, at least coming that early in the run).

Just because a series shares a universe doesn't mean that there have to be connections back to other parts of it all the time.

Does this mean that we'll have to wait for the timeline to get to post-Generations before Vanguard steps fully onto the stage on it's own?

Vanguard has some excellent, EXCELLENT characters. Let's see where their paths take them rather than following in the footsteps of Kirk and company.

If you check the various places where Vanguard has come up on the boards you'd see that I continually call it the best of the Trek novel series. That still stands.

 

[Johnhead99]

I always find it interesting; these types of threads and seeing how drastically different opinions can be.

I for one thought Death in Winter was fantastic. I would put it in my top 20 easily.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I found the Stargazer novels some of the more interesting works of his, but Death in Winter left me cold (no pun intended). I think it might have been because it was a Picard/Crusher novel over a TNG novel. As the first post-Nemesis novel, I'd expected it to be a sort of new pilot for the characters, and instead it turned out to be a story that focuses almost entirely on Picard and Crusher. I love the characters, but I felt that it also gave Worf and Geordi the shaft at the same time. It wasn't the worst I've ever read, but it felt unnecessary.

But I wouldn't mind getting new Stargazer material. The crew is interesting, and I'd like to see more of the Picard and Jack Crusher friendship, which they hadn't gotten to by the time of the last novel published.

 

[Sci]

For the most part, the series works just fine. Having a second series set in the TOS era is a great idea and one that, for the most part, Vanguard has handled really well. However, it seems that at times the main thrust of the story is to act as a supporting character to TOS. It's like having a great supporting actor get his own series on TV and every two to three episodes we get a "special guest star" or some such. Imagine if Frasier had continually had Cheers actors showing up. We got Lilith once a year and the others, with the exception of Diane, showed up once during an 11 year run.

TNG managed to stand on it's own and acknowledged TOS with a nice, quiet two person scene. It then went off on it's own for a number of years for the most part (I think everyone can agree that The Naked Now was a mistake, at least coming that early in the run).

Just because a series shares a universe doesn't mean that there have to be connections back to other parts of it all the time.

Does this mean that we'll have to wait for the timeline to get to post-Generations before Vanguard steps fully onto the stage on it's own?

Vanguard has some excellent, EXCELLENT characters. Let's see where their paths take them rather than following in the footsteps of Kirk and company.

If you check the various places where Vanguard has come up on the boards you'd see that I continually call it the best of the Trek novel series. That still stands.

I think you're making a fundamental mistake in how you're categorizing Vanguard, and therefore in how you're judging its creative conceits.

You're comparing Vanguard to television spin-offs that have co-equal status with their originators -- Fraiser with Cheers, The Next Generation with Star Trek, etc. As a result, you think of VNG as having an obligation to go off on its own direction from TOS the way they did.

The problem is that VNG is not a co-equal spin-off. It is and will always be a tie-in novel series, and, as such, it has a creative obligation to relate back to TOS in a more concerted manner than an independent, canonical spin-off would. VNG is not and never will be its own animal -- not unless it's adapted for television, at any rate. It will always be a tie-in novel series, and, as such, will always have an obligation to, well, tie-in.

Besides, I think VNG is using those TOS characters and situations more intelligently than TOS did, so I'm perfectly happy to see them play with TOS's toys.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I've never said that it cannot or should not tie in. I'm simply concerned with the amount of tie in that it's doing. It's a question of degrees. With the Genesis connection Carol Marcus is a natural. Looking at the Klingon High Council at the time it makes sense that Gorkon would be on it. Do we really need Nogura? Will Terrell meet Carol marcus, leading to his role in the Genesis project? If so, he makes sense to be there. The apperance of established characters, either major, minor or obscure, should be done to advance the story, not just to establish a tie back to TOS.

 

[Bishop76]

I guess I've never felt anyone appeared just for the purpose of tying back to TOS. It seems like everyone does have a purpose in the story and isn't just there for the sake of tie-in purposes. Why is Nogura a problem, though? The guy's only mention anywhere in TOS is a throwaway line in a movie. There really is a great cast of original characters in this thing that do a fine job of carrying the series and making it its own. One could even argue that aside from his name, Nogura is an original character, seeing as he never had an established personality in the movie he was mentioned in (other than the implication that he was a hard-ass).

 

[kkozoriz1]

If he's nothing more than a name why make him the guy from TMP? Why not give us an original character that we don't know will end up as the C-in-C? It's not like there's not a lot of connections back to TOS already. I guess it's just a matter of degrees. Some like more tie ins. I like fewer.

 

[David Mack]

^ And we like more. And we're the ones writing the books. There's your answer. End of discussion.

How 'bout that fantastic Michael Jan Friedman, huh? Yeah, that guy sure can write.

 

[ATimson]

How 'bout that fantastic Michael Jan Friedman, huh? Yeah, that guy sure can write.

In theory. It's been five years (and given what we know of the schedule, it'll hit six) since his last Trek novel. I demand evidence of his continued ability to write.