Michael Burnham and Pon Farr...

[Timo]

He's not going to experience hormonal changes from releasing an egg and shedding his uterine lining, it's just totally not going to happen no matter how much time he spends among women.

But none of that is necessary or even relevant for adopting the resulting behavior patterns, which are the only thing that manifests to the outside anyway, in a fashion the audience might notice. If the guy lives alone among gals with synched-up menstrual cycles, he learns to dance the dance, consciously or subconsciously. Unless he somehow adopts an anti-stance, a pronounced "I'm the man around here" attitude that then fixates his personality in some other funny angle.

Culture is contagious. The example above is only slightly special in that the culture itself is on a subconscious level, rather than a conscious construct.

As for how biological pon farr is, we probably can't tell because it's the one thing the Vulcans themselves would be in deep denial about already. We just won't get the facts. Not until we spend more time with Romulans. Or Mintakans.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marynator]

Well Romulans aren't the same as Vulcans anymore, like don't they have millennia of alternate evolution? I've never heard of Romulans having any telepathy or anything either, right?

Oh like also if you're raised by Vulcans I don't believe you can initiate mind melds either, you know? I don't believe Pon Farr is something you can "catch" just by living with them, and Michael obviously isn't fully absorbed in Vulcan emotional suppression either, and I'd totally be surprised if she didn't spend more time with Amanda than Sarek while she was growing up.

 

[Mudd]

My impression from Sturgeon's episode was that it was rooted in Vulcan physiology - Spock draws analogies with the salmon. The Vulcan "mating urge" is an imperative that's a matter of life and death for them.*

Which makes a certain amount of sense. In other species with less biologically deterministic natures, cults of emotional suppression and "reason" may have a tendency to go extinct in a competitive environment with the less repressed.

*So, there was a stand-up guy who guested on SNL way back in the late 70s who had a killer bit about Star Trek. He summed up "Amok Time" with McCoy telling Kirk, "Damn, Jim, that shit's backed up in there - that's why his ears are pointy!"

 

[Marynator]

But none of that is necessary or even relevant for adopting the resulting behavior patterns, which are the only thing that manifests to the outside anyway, in a fashion the audience might notice. If the guy lives alone among gals with synched-up menstrual cycles, he learns to dance the dance, consciously or subconsciously. Unless he somehow adopts an anti-stance, a pronounced "I'm the man around here" attitude that then fixates his personality in some other funny angle.

Oh dear no, menstruation/ovulation is physical, not cultural. Please stop, you've no idea what you're talking about.

 

[BillJ]

My impression from Sturgeon's episode was that it was rooted in Vulcan physiology - Spock draws analogies with the salmon. Their "mating urge" is an imperative that's a matter of life and death for them.

The mating urge may well be. But McCoy also mentions that the madness is the price they pay for repressing their emotions the rest of the time. Burnham has grown through adolescence with a telepathic race that has it as both a cultural and physical imperative. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of it rub off on her.

 

[fireproof78]

Well Romulans aren't the same as Vulcans anymore, like don't they have millennia of alternate evolution? I've never heard of Romulans having any telepathy or anything either, right?

Oh like also if you're raised by Vulcans I don't believe you can initiate mind melds either, you know? I don't believe Pon Farr is something you can "catch" just by living with them, and Michael obviously isn't fully absorbed in Vulcan emotional suppression either, and I'd totally be surprised if she didn't spend more time with Amanda than Sarek while she was growing up.

That's a good point. Would Amanda be impacted by living among Vulcans as well?

 

[Marynator]

The mating urge may well be. But McCoy also mentions that the madness is the price they pay for repressing their emotions the rest of the time. Burnham has grown through adolescence with a telepathic race that has it as both a cultural and physical imperative. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of it rub off on her.

I could totally see her getting wrapped up in the ceremonial aspects, like understanding traditions and cultural pressure about ritual mating every seven years, sort of like how she might feel arranged marriage is totally normal. I don't totally believe Sarek was completely immune to that culture, because he had a Vulcan wife before Amanda, right? And we know he set up an arranged marriage for Spock. Oh but anyways, I don't believe she'd experience the physiological aspects of pon farr, and probably not even the psychological ones because she wasn't really repressing her emotions, she didn't have millennia of genetic training for that either, and we know from Discovery she totally has her feelings. She's just educated in logic and reason, but she's completely human.

 

[BillJ]

I could totally see her getting wrapped up in the ceremonial aspects, like understanding traditions and cultural pressure about ritual mating every seven years, sort of like how she might feel arranged marriage is totally normal. I don't totally believe Sarek was completely immune to that culture, because he had a Vulcan wife before Amanda, right? And we know he set up an arranged marriage for Spock. Oh but anyways, I don't believe she'd experience the physiological aspects of pon farr, and probably not even the psychological ones because she wasn't really repressing her emotions, she didn't have millennia of genetic training for that either, and we know from Discovery she totally has her feelings. She's just educated in logic and reason, but she's completely human.

Just don't be surprised if these writers end up with Burnham in the throes of Pon Farr at some point.

 

[Mudd]

The mating urge may well be. But McCoy also mentions that the madness is the price they pay for repressing their emotions the rest of the time.

I interpreted that at the time as meaning that if Vulcans engaged in sex with the frequency that they might without their systematic repression of emotions and urges that the biologically-wired imperative to spawn would never arise as problematic every so many years; the importance of the seven year cycle would be obviated.

 

[BillJ]

I interpreted that at the time as meaning that if Vulcans engaged in sex with the frequency that they might without their systematic repression of emotions and urges that the biologically-wired imperative to spawn would never arise as problematic every so many years; the importance of the seven year cycle would be obviated.

Do we have any idea if it was ever the original intent that Vulcans have sex only once every seven years? It would seem odd for T'Pring to be so on about Stonn if there wasn't a sexual component to it.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

 

[Mudd]

Asked about it years later, Fontana (who, obviously, did not write that show) said that she always worked on the assumption that Vulcans could fuck whenever they wanted to. The other thing doesn't make much sense - even within the context of the story, as you point out.

Yeah, a writer in the third year stuck some extra nonsense into "The Cloud Minders" that indicated otherwise, but there's no reason not to ignore that. Trek is full of contradictory bullshit that gums it up unless you just shrug it off.

 

[fireproof78]

Just don't be surprised if these writers end up with Burnham in the throes of Pon Farr at some point.

Ok...
We've seen weird shenanigans with Pon Farr in other series so not sure why the possibility of more would be surprising

 

[Longinus]

Do we have any idea if it was ever the original intent that Vulcans have sex only once every seven years? It would seem odd for T'Pring to be so on about Stonn if there wasn't a sexual component to it.

They're aliens.

I always hated the idea that they just had sex normally like humans. That kinda defeats the whole point of pon farr. And yes, having sex only once in seven years seems crazy to us sex crazed humans. That's good.

 

[Longinus]

But is this whole thread basically BillJ inventing a stupid scenario the writers might write in order to complain? I mean I agree that the writing was shit, but it is fairer to criticise the stupid stuff that they actually already wrote...

 

[Timo]

Well Romulans aren't the same as Vulcans anymore, like don't they have millennia of alternate evolution? I've never heard of Romulans having any telepathy or anything either, right?

"Millennia" shouldn't count yet - you and me aren't different from Julius Caesar biologically, after all. But onscreen, the Romulans kidnapped an Andorian for their (admittedly somewhat specific) telepathic needs. And never interrogated anybody with a mind meld if innovative torture devices with blinking lights could get the job done.

Oh like also if you're raised by Vulcans I don't believe you can initiate mind melds either, you know?

Hard to tell - we don't know exactly what is involved. Some humans are telepaths in TOS, perhaps for the same reason many Vulcans are stronger telepaths. Might be just a matter of degrees. There's certainly "training" involved, as per "Is There In Truth".

I don't believe Pon Farr is something you can "catch" just by living with them

It's a behavior pattern (among other things). You can assuredly catch behavior patterns. Such as menstruation, regardless of what underlies that behavior pattern. Trust me, I know what I am talking about (although you may be blind to it, looking from the inside).

My impression from Sturgeon's episode was that it was rooted in Vulcan physiology - Spock draws analogies with the salmon.

Which sort of rules out the seven-year cycle already - for most salmon, it's not mate or die, it's mate and die.

How inexact the analogy was, we may only guess. The salmon could mate anywhere, but they choose to mate in their home river. It's an adaptation that may help them or doom them. Conforming to logic, likewise...

Which makes a certain amount of sense. In other species with less biologically deterministic natures, cults of emotional suppression and "reason" may have a tendency to go extinct in a competitive environment with the less repressed.

Yup, this always made at least some sense.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

But is this whole thread basically BillJ inventing a stupid scenario the writers might write in order to complain?

No. It was something to talk about without going through another 8,000 posts about the Enterprise, or the numerous "Casting" threads.

 

[Mudd]

Which sort of rules out the seven-year cycle already - for most salmon, it's not mate or die, it's mate and die.

It's characteristic of your posts to miss a lot of the point of a piece of fiction as a consequence of your literal-minded overthinking of trivia.

 

[Marynator]

"Millennia" shouldn't count yet - you and me aren't different from Julius Caesar biologically, after all. But onscreen, the Romulans kidnapped an Andorian for their (admittedly somewhat specific) telepathic needs. And never interrogated anybody with a mind meld if innovative torture devices with blinking lights could get the job done.

Oh but in Star Trek it can! We know Vulcans and Romulans are really very different, like remember Beverly couldn't tread her Romulan patient using Vulcans, because they're too different? He was more compatible with a Klingon!

It's a behavior pattern (among other things). You can assuredly catch behavior patterns. Such as menstruation, regardless of what underlies that behavior pattern. Trust me, I know what I am talking about (although you may be blind to it, looking from the inside).

No, you can't, unless you'e going to grow some ovaries and a uterus. Menstruation isn't a behavior pattern, it's a physiological process that happens to you because of your ovulation cycle. A man isn't somehow just going to pick up where he's only able to conceive 5-6 days a month and experience everything that goes along with that. You might be thinking of like "male menopause", where your testosterone production's going to drop off one day and you might experience depression, but that's totally not the same thing as menstruation, you really have no clue what you're talking about, and your first comment about "irrational irritability" really shows that as much as everything else you've said.

 

[Longinus]

Many animals are seasonal breeders. It is actually humans which are a bit unusual in that regard.

 

[Jinn]

Weren't the Vulcans without logic in Enterprise free of Pon Farr?

It's a behavior pattern (among other things). You can assuredly catch behavior patterns.

How would that work with Pon Farr? Michael spend less than twenty years with Vulcans, that's hardly enough time to adopt a behavior pattern that covers a seven year period.