News Meyer: Star Trek: Discovery Is Self-Examination

[Longinus]

TOS could be solemn and did some damned good work with episodes like "The Conscience of the King" and "Obsession", but managed to balance it out with episodes like "Arena", "Errand of Mercy" and "The Man Trap".

I guess what I'm looking for is a balance that has been missing from Star Trek for a long time.

"The Conscience of the King" is one of my all time favourite Trek episodes. But you're absolutely right; having a balance is good.

I find it funny how often people contrast TOS and TNG as if they would be somehow drastically different, while lumping all the 24th century shows together. TOS and TNG are my two clear favourite Star Trek shows (way above others) and I don't find them that different at all. Sure, TOS may be a bit more action adventurish than TNG, but to me it is more a difference of degree rather than kind. I find DS9 to be much clearer departure in tone and subject matter.

 

[BillJ]

"The Conscience of the King" is one of my all time favourite Trek episodes. But you're absolutely right; having a balance is good.

I find it funny how often people contrast TOS and TNG as if they would be somehow drastically different, while lumping all the 24th century shows together. TOS and TNG are my two clear favourite Star Trek shows (way above others) and I don't find them that different at all. Sure, TOS may be a bit more action adventurish than TNG, but to me it is more a difference of degree rather than kind. I find DS9 to be much clearer departure in tone and subject matter.

I think the latter shows just miss the classic 'WTF?!?' moments that TOS had, like the American flag in "The Omega Glory", or a giant green space hand in "Who Mourns for Adonais?"

 

[KirkusOveractus]

I think the latter shows just miss the classic 'WTF?!?' moments that TOS had, like the American flag in "The Omega Glory", or a giant green space hand in "Who Mourns for Adonais?"

They did try to varying degrees, but in trying to be clever and subtle, they ended up missing the mark.

The greatest moments happened when it just...happened. No arc through the episode to lead you by the hand, it just happened. When the US flag comes out in "The Omega Glory" and Kirk starts to piece it together, it's classic and it just hits you all at once.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I really need Discovery to have a total 'WTF?!?' moment like we have in "The Omega Glory" when the Yangs trot out the American flag and Kirk reads the US Constitution.

Seriously, that moment has sparked fifty years of discussion and theories.

Okay that may cross the campy line a little too far for me. lol

 

[137th Gebirg]

I think the latter shows just miss the classic 'WTF?!?' moments that TOS had, like the American flag in "The Omega Glory", or a giant green space hand in "Who Mourns for Adonais?"

Agreed regarding the WMfA hand thing (and a nice couple of nods to it in the last NuTrek movie), but the "Omega Glory" thing took the whole principals of "parallel development" and push them into the absurd beyond the point of being able to suspend disbelief. Hell, even when I first saw the episode when I was 5yo I knew something was off about that and other episodes like it.

You had the spitting image of the U.S. flag, you had the Yangs (Yankees) and Coms (Communists) and some recognizable bastardization mixture of "We The People" and the Pledge of Allegiance without any apparent source of cultural pollution like we saw in "A Piece of the Action", "A Private Little War" or "Patterns of Force" (among many others). HIGHLY improbable that all those things would be so much alike without some kind of external influence that was never exposed other than some throw-away shrug line about parallel development.

Even worse, in "Miri" (and maybe a couple other episodes - can't honestly remember) where they find themselves in orbit around a planet that looks EXACTLY like Earth from orbit. Not a mirror image or flipped upside-down to slightly obfuscate what it is, but an EXACT replica of Earth. We saw a couple of seconds of head-scratching and chin-rubbing and then it's more like a "feh" moment and on with the Lord of the Flies rip-off. UGH! What about the freakin' planet that looks EXACTLY LIKE EARTH?!? How did that bloody happen?!? That goes way beyond parallel development and into the scale of Magrathean planet manufacturing, and there was absolutely no investigation into that mystery, which could be quite paradigm-changing in the way intelligent life in the Federation and surrounding empires view its interstellar history. The only thing that even came close in scope and immensity of galactic cultural impact was with TNG's "The Chase" proto-humanoid alien progenitor, or the mysterious Preservers/Seeders from TOS's "Paradise Syndrome".

So, in short, "WTF?" is okay so long as it makes sense and the writers are actually willing to invest time in allowing the crew to explore it, rather than using as it a simple throw-away massively-scoped shock element employed as a plot device to support a lesser story. The Dyson Sphere in "Relics" is another good example of this extremely frustrating writing style.

 

[BillJ]

Agreed regarding the WMfA hand thing (and a nice couple of nods to it in the last NuTrek movie), but the "Omega Glory" thing took the whole principals of "parallel development" and push them into the absurd beyond the point of being able to suspend disbelief. Hell, even when I first saw the episode when I was 5yo I knew something was off about that and other episodes like it.

I always figured an Earth ship crashed on Omega IV a century or so prior. Contaminating the local culture with their ways (and they had relics from the US). The Yangs and Kohms were similar (in my mind) but not a duplicate culture. They took the US relics as their own, since everything their culture was destroyed in the war and the aftermath.

Christopher Bennett theorizes the same rough idea in one of his DTI books.

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Sure that would certainly make sense. If they had opened with that bit of up-front information at the outset of the episode, or during the course of investigating the culture in question, it would fit nicely. Instead, they never actually looked into how or why this happened which, for an organization like the Federation/Starfleet with its Prime Directive, you'd think they would be necessarily required to explore it, like they did with all other similar incidents in other episodes, before and after.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the whole "Bread and Circuses" thing with the exact duplicate of the Roman Empire and the Sun/Son of God/Jesus reference at the end. "Wouldn't it be something to see it happen all over again?" Were they so sure that it would play out in exactly the same way? How did a culture so ancient come to appear on this planet? Were they also a product of the Preservers who extracted humans from the early Roman times and transplanted them here?

Or how about the odd planet of quasi-Grecian psionics in "Plato's Stepchildren"? Too many examples of the greater mysteries of supposed unexplained parallel development by too many Earth-origin cultures, without asking the questions "Why?" and "How?" Lots of lost opportunities there.

 

[BillJ]

Or how about the odd planet of quasi-Grecian psionics in "Plato's Stepchildren"? Too many examples of unexplained parallel development by too many Earth-origin cultures without asking the questions "Why?" and "How?"

I always enjoyed them. Plenty of fodder for the imagination.

 

[Longinus]

Agreed regarding the WMfA hand thing (and a nice couple of nods to it in the last NuTrek movie), but the "Omega Glory" thing took the whole principals of "parallel development" and push them into the absurd beyond the point of being able to suspend disbelief. Hell, even when I first saw the episode when I was 5yo I knew something was off about that and other episodes like it.

You had the spitting image of the U.S. flag, you had the Yangs (Yankees) and Coms (Communists) and some recognizable bastardization mixture of "We The People" and the Pledge of Allegiance without any apparent source of cultural pollution like we saw in "A Piece of the Action", "A Private Little War" or "Patterns of Force" (among many others). HIGHLY improbable that all those things would be so much alike without some kind of external influence that was never exposed other than some throw-away shrug line about parallel development.

Even worse, in "Miri" (and maybe a couple other episodes - can't honestly remember) where they find themselves in orbit around a planet that looks EXACTLY like Earth from orbit. Not a mirror image or flipped upside-down to slightly obfuscate what it is, but an EXACT replica of Earth. We saw a couple of seconds of head-scratching and chin-rubbing and then it's more like a "feh" moment and on with the Lord of the Flies rip-off and the "Friendly Angel". UGH! What about the freakin' planet that looks EXACTLY LIKE EARTH?!? How did that bloody happen?!? That goes way beyond parallel development and into the scale of Magrathean planet manufacturing, and there was absolutely no investigation into that mystery, which could be quite paradigm-changing in the way intelligent life in the Federation and surrounding empires view its interstellar history. The only thing that even came close in scope and immensity of galactic cultural impact was with TNG's "The Chase" proto-humanoid alien progenitor, or the mysterious Preservers/Seeders from TOS's "Paradise Syndrome".

So, in short, "WTF?" is okay so long as it makes sense and the writers are actually willing to invest time in allowing the crew to explore it, rather than using as it a simple throw-away massively-scoped shock element employed as a plot device to support a lesser story. The Dyson Sphere in "Relics" is another good example of this extremely frustrating writing style.

Yeah, those parallel development shenanigans always bugged me about TOS. I understand why they did it, but as pointed out, they took it to totally absurd lengths occasionally.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I suppose it could be argued that the writers back then were more concerned with the "micro" exploration of the human condition, rather than the "macro" mysteries of the universe. Which is why I always thought TNG's "The Chase", with the proto-human explaining all humanoid origins in the galaxy, and "All Good Things", with Q forcing Picard to expand his mind to the possibilities of the very notion of existence itself, were such water-shed moments in the franchise.

In those few profound instances, the writers tried (and largely succeeded) in exploring concepts bigger than humanity - bigger than all the beings that occupied the galaxy, but rarely did the ever take it beyond a single episode. Very quickly we got re-mired back in the "micro" again.

I REALLY hope this new series starts exploring the "macro" more. If anyone can do it, it's Nick Meyer, IMO.

 

[Longinus]

I suppose it could be argued that the writers back then were more concerned with the "micro" exploration of the human condition, rather than the "macro" mysteries of the universe. Which is why I always thought TNG's "The Chase", with the proto-human explaining all humanoid origins in the galaxy, and "All Good Things", with Q forcing Picard to expand his mind to the possibilities of the very notion of existence itself, were such water-shed moments in the franchise.

In those few profound instances, the writers tried (and largely succeeded) in exploring concepts bigger than humanity - bigger than all the beings that occupied the galaxy, but rarely did the ever take it beyond a single episode. Very quickly we got re-mired back in the "micro" again.

I REALLY hope this new series starts exploring the "macro" more. If anyone can do it, it's Nick Meyer, IMO.

Good observation about the scale, though I have to say I hated the conclusion of 'the Chase' and sooner that embarrassing piece of intelligent design advocacy is forgotten, the better. AGT is great of course.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Heh...yeah. That's my own personal conceit. I'm an "Ancient Aliens" fan myself. That stuff always fascinated me, even back then.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

Interesting discussion about "The Omega Glory" and the like, but not having it completely explained is what makes it so enjoyable for me. The stirring of the imagination and the surprise moment.

I think that's what TNG and future series (as well as some of the TNG movies like Generations) was that everything was talked and explained to death.

You were left with no wonder, no discussion of what happened.

 

[Vger23]

I really enjoy The Undiscovered Country. It is very much an "80's" with all the pros and cons. But, at that point, Star Trek was still very much action-adventure.

I'd rather watch it than pretty much anything produced by Rick Berman and Company. That isn't a slam at them, just that they changed Star Trek into something very different than what it had been.

When framed this way, I find it hard to disagree with you...

 

[Vger23]

More adventurous tone. I miss humans being humans and making mistakes, I miss 30 foot Gods, I miss the outlandish that used to make Trek stand out. Now it is just bumpy headed aliens acting human and carrying out dour drama (Abramsverse excluded).

I guess there's plenty of episodes where I have that feeling too. That's one of the reasons TOS is my favorite series and I have a soft spot for TAS. But adventurous at that level probably wouldn't hold up today -- it would have to be portrayed differently or else it would be considered "too campy," at least for a wide audience. Yeah I see your point. And if 30 foot gods and outlandish characters are what you want (and lord knows I would like to see that sometimes too!) then you may have reason to be worried. For some reason I'm getting a DS9 feel from DSC, in terms of content and tone. I hope DSC doesn't take itself too seriously either.

I think the thing I am most concerned about with DSC is that it will be heavily like DS9's Dominion arc and like ENT's Xindi arc. Even though I enjoyed those, there wasn't enough of that fun action/adventure "exploring new worlds" stuff that you got in TOS, TAS and even in some TNG.

I think I always liked Trek "Boldly Going" the most. I'd like to see more stuff like "Corbomite Maneuver," "Devil In the Dark," "Taste of Armageddon," "Savage Curtain," "Is There In Truth No Beauty," "Metamorphosis," "Obsession," "By Any Other Name," etc where they encountered truly alien beings or societies who weren't just Earth parallels, and there was mystery and wonder and conflict associated with those encounters.

I really don't find anything interesting any longer about the Federation's relations with the Klingons and the Romulans and all that stuff. I guess thats good if you need an occasional foil or cool space battle (and I'm fine with that), but I don't really care for an intricate tale about the maneuvering of these interstellar governments or whatever. You can do that in any genre on any show, but in Star Trek, you have the unique opportunity to go to other worlds and meet TRULY alien beings and societies and let fantastic stories grow from there.

I hope they have a way to get back to THAT kind of fun and outlandish storytelling, and it's not confined to a "brink of war" story about the Alpha Quadrent. To me, that's the only non-starter with DSC. You can still do an entertaining, fun, engaging show with great conflict while setting foot on alien worlds and discovering new things each week. Heck, you can even do interesting arcs...but please don't make it about the Alpha Quadrent power dynamics. Then, it's just another TV show.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I think the thing I am most concerned about with DSC is that it will be heavily like DS9's Dominion arc and like ENT's Xindi arc. Even though I enjoyed those, there wasn't enough of that fun action/adventure "exploring new worlds" stuff that you got in TOS, TAS and even in some TNG.

I think I always liked Trek "Boldly Going" the most. I'd like to see more stuff like "Corbomite Maneuver," "Devil In the Dark," "Taste of Armageddon," "Savage Curtain," "Is There In Truth No Beauty," "Metamorphosis," "Obsession," "By Any Other Name," etc where they encountered truly alien beings or societies who weren't just Earth parallels, and there was mystery and wonder and conflict associated with those encounters.

I really don't find anything interesting any longer about the Federation's relations with the Klingons and the Romulans and all that stuff. I guess thats good if you need an occasional foil or cool space battle (and I'm fine with that), but I don't really care for an intricate tale about the maneuvering of these interstellar governments or whatever. You can do that in any genre on any show, but in Star Trek, you have the unique opportunity to go to other worlds and meet TRULY alien beings and societies and let fantastic stories grow from there.

I hope they have a way to get back to THAT kind of fun and outlandish storytelling, and it's not confined to a "brink of war" story about the Alpha Quadrent. To me, that's the only non-starter with DSC. You can still do an entertaining, fun, engaging show with great conflict while setting foot on alien worlds and discovering new things each week. Heck, you can even do interesting arcs...but please don't make it about the Alpha Quadrent power dynamics. Then, it's just another TV show.

For me I like the TOS style and the DS9/late-ENT style when I'm in different moods. Sometimes I want the lighthearted, Adventures of Kirk and Spock: Space Cowboys thing. Other times I'm more in the mood for the sweeping political dramas of DS9 and ENT. So, I won't be disappointed if DSC goes one or both of those routes necessarily, it really comes down to execution. Honestly though, we're about due for some lighthearted adventures. The ship's name is a point in its favor.

EDIT: By the way if anyone wants to do a fanfic called The Adventures of Kirk and Spock: Space Cowboys, feel free, just be sure to tag me.

 

[Ometiklan]

I pretty sure I read that "The Omega Glory" was originally going to contain a mention that there had been a lost/failed colonization effort on that planet. It would have explained it without resorting to parallel development. But it got deleted. Don't remember where I read that, but it instantly became my head canon.

 

[137th Gebirg]

If that's the case, it's a shame it got removed from the final cut. Would definitely have helped the plausibility of the story.

 

[a thousand-yard stare]

I try and think of TOS as a frameworked version of 'The Outer Limits' (along with a choice slice of 'Jason and the Argonauts').
A collection of short stories by good sci-fi writers with no particular thought to 'canon'.
Just drop the recurring protagonists in a situation and let it unfold...

 

[Mudd]

I try and think of TOS as a frameworked version of 'The Outer Limits' (along with a choice slice of 'Jason and the Argonauts').
A collection of short stories by good sci-fi writers with no particular thought to 'canon'.
Just drop the recurring protagonists in a situation and let it unfold...

Yep.