Meritocracy in Trek

[Richard S. Ta]

I could definitely imagine this, though it would be a shame to miss out on all those amazing views - did we ever see Geordi's quarters for comparison?

You might want to edit your post so the person you quoted knows you quoted them. 'Cause that aint me. :-D

 

[James H]

My apologies Richard, I don't think I have editing privileges yet. Like you, I absolutely thought the Cerritos was Grissom sized

I can see Data not caring for a Window in his room since he's an Android.

Same with Worf, but for different reasons. It's not "Spartan Enough" for his tastes.

Having a Window might be too "Cozy/Comfy" and a sign of weakness for a warrior.

Something he would avoid.

I could definitely imagine this, though it would be a shame to miss out on all those amazing views - did we ever see Geordi's quarters for comparison?

 

[at Quark's]

You raise an interesting point. I think it's safe to say that the writers were attracted to writing about characters with forms of political influence and didn't fully consider the ways in which this might contradict the stated text of meritocracy.

I absolutely reject the assertion that Picard "comes from immense wealth and privilege" though. His vineyard might register as an indication of wealth and privilege by modern standards, but in the context of a Federation that has rejected capitalism and ended poverty, I think Chateau Picard is just an indication he comes from a family that has eccentric hobbies.

I agree. Picard seems to come from a good family. To me he 'feels' roughly equivalent to what today we would call upper middle class (and his family having been there for a long time), but no more than that.

Kirk, on the other hand, felt more like a self-made man to me, who worked his way up because of his sheer aptitude for the job. (That's from before it was established his father was a captain, too, though).

 

[Richard S. Ta]

My apologies Richard, I don't think I have editing privileges yet. Like you, I absolutely thought the Cerritos was Grissom sized

No apologies necessary. It’s an easy thing to do. I just wanted to make sure you got the attention of the person you were quoting. :-)

 

[Whizkid]

I ask this with a sense of fun, because the real reasons for this decision are obviously to tell tighter stories and create more drama and character development ...
But does anyone find it interesting that in the supposed meritocratic utopia of the Star Trek future, almost every Starfleet officer seems to have or use family connections to their advantage.
Look at the TNG bridge crew: Troi's mother is an ambassador, Worf comes from a ruling family, Riker's father pulls strings in Starfleet, Geordi's mum was a captain and his dad was a commander, Wesley is Beverly Crusher's son, and while Picard may not have Starfleet in his blood he clearly comes from immense wealth and privilege.
Elsewhere: Janeway's dad is a Vice Admiral, Paris's father is a captain
Even Spock and Kirk are son of an ambassador and a captain respectively (presumably in both Prime and Kelvin timelines) along with Burnham of course.
While there are exceptions such as Sisko and O'Brien, maybe this explains why a nobody like Harry Kim never got that promotion. In fact, the problem of nepotism seems so endemic that Bashir's parents have to have him genetically engineered to give him an equal chance to compete.

@James H:

Excellent question. However, I wouldn't put it down to meritocracy as much as the suspicion/disbelief I might carry about a "post-scarcity world." Which
is the basic premise of ST. For instance, nepotism would have been ruled out in EWR's world, but not ours. Plus EWR abhorred interpersonal conflict among the bridge crew because by the 24th C it would all have been resolved. So, were you to suspend disbelief, the basic mythology of ST, everything else would fall in line. IMO.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

@James H:

Excellent question. However, I wouldn't put it down to meritocracy as much as the suspicion/disbelief I might carry about a "post-scarcity world." Which
is the basic premise of ST. For instance, nepotism would have been ruled out in EWR's world, but not ours. Plus EWR abhorred interpersonal conflict among the bridge crew because by the 24th C it would all have been resolved. So, were you to suspend disbelief, the basic mythology of ST, everything else would fall in line. IMO.

EWR?

 

[Whizkid]

Eugene Wesley Roddenberry. Gene Roddenberry.

 

[James H]

Kirk, on the other hand, felt more like a self-made man to me, who worked his way up because of his sheer aptitude for the job. (That's from before it was established his father was a captain, too, though).

I always felt so too. And I loved the implication (I can't remember which episode of TOS this was in) that Kirk was a bookworm back at the academy and only later evolved into such a confident captain - the opposite of Picard who was a bit of a Kirk in his academy days in Tapestry

No apologies necessary. It’s an easy thing to do. I just wanted to make sure you got the attention of the person you were quoting. :-)

Thanks mate

 

[The Wormhole]

You guys are talking about real estate and I'm still struggling with why Lower Decks crew have inferior replicators to the senior staff, and why they have to live in a corridor. It must be some deliberate choice to encourage advancement in Starfeet, yes?

Probably. After all, there's supposedly no money in the Federation and Starfleet apparently has no Up or Out policy like today's military. How else can Starfleet encourage its personnel to try and advance through the ranks?

 

[1001001]

If it's just Dorm Room style living, I can't see why lower level officers can't just share a common set of quarters together.

Designing good Dorm Style Quarters should be easy.

They showed a dorm style room in TUC.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

They showed a dorm style room in TUC.

Exactly, and how many bunk beds were in that room?

I remember multiple sets.

And if you want to be space efficient, having Triple Level Bunk Beds is one of the more efficient setups.

Or having Bunk Beds above your desk is a good space saving measure while having a small personal room.

Which is basically only slightly larger than a large walk-in closet.

That is linked to communal Quarters while sharing amongst many officers:

 

[F. King Daniel]

They showed a dorm style room in TUC.

Even Kirk's quarters were way smaller in TUC to what he had in TMP and WoK. Nick Meyer loves the cramped look, can only guess the Enterprise-A was built a lil' differently, interior space-wise.

Even the massive Excelsior had the bunks in TUC/Flashback.

 

[valkyrie013]

Enterprise had the most realistic junior quarters.
A bunk bed, 2 lockers and a table. In a 3x3 meter room. Small but somewhat private..
... Wonder where you hang a sock on a trek door??

 

[Orphalesion]

How else can Starfleet encourage its personnel to try and advance through the ranks?

Do they need any encouragement?
Doesn't Star Trek work with the idea that, freed from the rat race for survival, people are just naturally enthusiastic about doing the best they can and being the best they can be?
The encouragement is that if you advance you get to do more exiting stuff and get to see more exciting things.
And for the outliers Star Trek does seem to have an option to discharge them. We are told being a Star Fleet Officer is a privilege, not a right.

 

[Whizkid]

Do they need any encouragement?
But doesn't Star Trek work with the idea that, freed from the rat race for survival, people are just naturally enthusiastic about doing the best they can and being the best they can be?
The encouragement is that if you advance you get to do more exiting stuff and get to see more exciting things.
And for the outliers Star Trek does seem to have an option to discharge them. We are told being a Star Fleet Officer is a privilege, not a right.

Exactly my point. Most of my friends dismiss my fascination for ST because they forget that it's set in the 23rd/24th C in a post-scarcity world. Basic premise of ST.

Uff! How am I supposed to explain fantasy to those determined not to understand it?

 

[Sci]

Well, what is the population of Earth in say 2399 Picard time?
Billions?

Hard to say! We know that in 2258 of the Kelvin Timeline, Vulcan had a population of six billion; and we know that in the alternate timeline in which the Borg were successful in preventing First Contact, the assimilated Earth has a population of approximately nine billion drones.

I would be inclined to assume, on those bases, that a population of between six to nine billion humanoids is most common for technologically advanced species homeworlds. But that's pure conjecture on my part.

Alot of the humans in Starfleet seem to be from Earth, and not a colony, etc.

I mean, Starfleet in the 2250s is comprised of over 7,000 ships, and I'm sure there are even more by the 24th Century. Of those, we have gotten a good look at exactly 15-20 or so crews. That's not much of a representative sample. I would not say we've seen nearly enough of Starfleet to really have a sense of things like how common Earth origin really is.

You guys are talking about real estate and I'm still struggling with why Lower Decks crew have inferior replicators to the senior staff, and why they have to live in a corridor. It must be some deliberate choice to encourage advancement in Starfeet, yes?

I think that's part of it. Part of it is probably to build resilience in Starfleet officers and crew who need to be able to operate in extreme conditions under extraordinary circumstances. And part of it is probably just that even in the 24th Century, starships have limited resources.

Again, Starfleet is rigidly hierarchical in a way that Federation society at large probably is not.

I agree. Picard seems to come from a good family. To me he 'feels' roughly equivalent to what today we would call upper middle class (and his family having been there for a long time), but no more than that.

Yeah, and I think it's likely that the overwhelming majority of people either live in comparable material conditions or have access to comparable material conditions.

Kirk, on the other hand, felt more like a self-made man to me, who worked his way up because of his sheer aptitude for the job. (That's from before it was established his father was a captain, too, though).

For the record, we don't actually know that George Kirk became a captain. We know that he had achieved the rank of lieutenant commander and the billet of first officer of the USS Kelvin under Captain Richard Robau in 2233, but we have no other information about his career. It is entirely possible that Lt. Comm. Kirk never advanced past that rank or billet and retired from Starfleet after Jim was born. Or it's possible he kept getting promoted and achieved the rank of Fleet Admiral! Who knows? There's absolutely no canonical info.

I kind of prefer the idea he never advanced past lieutenant commander/first officer, though.

 

[Whizkid]

@Sci

Thanks.

But you know if you have to reference the Kelvin timeline, instead of the canon (I'm a big believer in the canon), then there's already something wrong.

I've never been a great believer in Kirk: "Shoot from the hip, ask questions later " Space cowboy. (But still, a boy.) Spock. Specifically, Leonard Nimoy is. just. love. (I have a lot of expectations from Ethan Peck, Gregory's grandson, but let's see). Picard did what nobody expected him to. Just the voice was enough if not the acting. It was ST: Shakespeare. And not at all bad.

 

[Sci]

@Sci

Thanks.

No prob!

But you know if you have to reference the Kelvin timeline, instead of the canon (I'm a big believer in the canon), then there's already something wrong.

Well, the Kelvin Timeline is part of the canon, and the information I referenced is stuff that would either have applied before the Kelvin Timeline splintered off from the Prime Timeline (George Kirk aboard the Kelvin), or stuff that would be extremely unlikely to change much in only ~30 years (the population of Vulcan) post-splinter.

 

[Whizkid]

No prob!



Well, the Kelvin Timeline is part of the canon, and the information I referenced is stuff that would either have applied before the Kelvin Timeline splintered off from the Prime Timeline (George Kirk aboard the Kelvin), or stuff that would be extremely unlikely to change much in only ~30 years (the population of Vulcan) post-splinter.

I really don't think... Lets wait for Strange New Worlds? No?

You're such a believer! In the meantime, Comme'd habitude!

Or the same song in Spanish: A mi manera!

My way. Sinatra.

 

[Whizkid]

Catalan! Yes. I know!