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*Mere Anarchy* at Shore Leave

Prices on paperback books (seriously, who calls them "pBooks" other than you?) have gone up many times before and will surely go up again in the future. When Pocket first began publishing Trek novels in 1979, they cost $2.50. Now they're $7.99. That's a 220% increase in 32 years, which is about even with the increase in average movie ticket prices in the same interval.
 
Prices on paperback books (seriously, who calls them "pBooks" other than you?) have gone up many times before and will surely go up again in the future. When Pocket first began publishing Trek novels in 1979, they cost $2.50. Now they're $7.99. That's a 220% increase in 32 years, which is about even with the increase in average movie ticket prices in the same interval.

One thing I really dislike is coming out with a new pBook (well, we call them eBooks so why not pBooks) format that's just designed to be able to raise prices. The new format that's taller and thinner and does not fit well on the shelf and feels funny to hold that costs $9.99 (I think). That's an awful format for a book.
 
So S&S raises prices significantly and refuses to allow any discounts and you're happy with that? WTF? No wonder they get away with it if that's the majority attitude. Why not raise pBook prices so they can raise eBook prices even more?
You should shake your cane a little harder, to really show how angry you are things don't cost what they did back in the day, dagnabbit.
 
So S&S raises prices significantly and refuses to allow any discounts and you're happy with that? WTF? No wonder they get away with it if that's the majority attitude. Why not raise pBook prices so they can raise eBook prices even more?
You should shake your cane a little harder, to really show how angry you are things don't cost what they did back in the day, dagnabbit.

Read up on the agency 6 and you'll know what's going on. It's not just about raising prices though that is one issue.
 
I guess the reason I don't have a problem with ebooks costing the same as a paperback is because I'm getting the same thing as the PB. So as long as I'm not paying more for it I'm happy. I think it's also worth pointing out that I have seen several books that have been released as ebooks and hardcovers, and the ebook is actually a little bit cheaper. And as has been pointed out numerous times, the things that a PB requires apparently don't have much of an impact on the price.
 
So S&S raises prices significantly and refuses to allow any discounts and you're happy with that? WTF? No wonder they get away with it if that's the majority attitude.

"Get away with it?"

Dude, it's a goddamn Star Trek book. We're not talking about an item essential to human life, dignity, and liberty here. This isn't the price of food or gas or healthcare. It's a luxury item -- and a relatively inexpensive luxury item, even at its most expensive!

I get irritated at companies that are trying to screw people over by charging too much for items that they need, items where procuring them is just non-negotiable. But you don't need a Star Trek book, much as you may love them. So, no, I don't object to them raising the price, and I have no pity for someone who does.

Especially since, hey, guess what? If you really want to read them, and you really can't afford to buy them? There's this wonderful thing called the public library.
 
^ Not all public libraries carry Star Trek books - particularly paperbacks.

I guess the reason I don't have a problem with ebooks costing the same as a paperback is because I'm getting the same thing as the PB.

You aren't, actually. When an ebook is "sold," no sale actually takes place. Legally, the apparent buyer only leases certain rights to the ebook's content (rights to read it on several personal devices, generally). You can't resell an ebook, give it to a friend when you're finished with it, donate it, etc.

That a license to the content of a book is priced similarly to the purchase of an actual copy of it - particularly given the typical aesthetic and quality drawbacks of ebooks relative to printed books - is ridiculous. In a world in which consumers were protected nearly so well as publishers, it wouldn't, as a practice, be allowed to stand.
 
So S&S raises prices significantly and refuses to allow any discounts and you're happy with that? WTF? No wonder they get away with it if that's the majority attitude.

"Get away with it?"

Dude, it's a goddamn Star Trek book. We're not talking about an item essential to human life, dignity, and liberty here. This isn't the price of food or gas or healthcare. It's a luxury item -- and a relatively inexpensive luxury item, even at its most expensive!

I get irritated at companies that are trying to screw people over by charging too much for items that they need, items where procuring them is just non-negotiable. But you don't need a Star Trek book, much as you may love them. So, no, I don't object to them raising the price, and I have no pity for someone who does.

Especially since, hey, guess what? If you really want to read them, and you really can't afford to buy them? There's this wonderful thing called the public library.

Thix issue extends beyond just Star Trek eBooks. We used to have eBooks at a lot more reasonable prices. Now the Agency 6 have raised prices. They refuse to allow discounts or sales. So you are alright when a pBook can be discounted say 20% and that brings the price lower then the cost of the eBook which cannot be discounted at all? In fact, there are some Star trek eBooks that are actually priced higher (sans any discount) then the pBook. Steve Jobs (aka Apple) signed a contract with the agency publishers allowing them to set prices and that nobody is allowed to have lower eBooks prices then Apple. It's a scam and we are caught in the crossfire.

Not all libraries carry all Star Trek eBooks. Does your local library have Declassified? Mine do not.
 
^ Not all public libraries carry Star Trek books - particularly paperbacks.

I guess the reason I don't have a problem with ebooks costing the same as a paperback is because I'm getting the same thing as the PB.

You aren't, actually. When an ebook is "sold," no sale actually takes place. Legally, the apparent buyer only leases certain rights to the ebook's content (rights to read it on several personal devices, generally). You can't resell an ebook, give it to a friend when you're finished with it, donate it, etc.

That a license to the content of a book is priced similarly to the purchase of an actual copy of it - particularly given the typical aesthetic and quality drawbacks of ebooks relative to printed books - is ridiculous. In a world in which consumers were protected nearly so well as publishers, it wouldn't, as a practice, be allowed to stand.

So S&S raises prices significantly and refuses to allow any discounts and you're happy with that? WTF? No wonder they get away with it if that's the majority attitude.

"Get away with it?"

Dude, it's a goddamn Star Trek book. We're not talking about an item essential to human life, dignity, and liberty here. This isn't the price of food or gas or healthcare. It's a luxury item -- and a relatively inexpensive luxury item, even at its most expensive!

I get irritated at companies that are trying to screw people over by charging too much for items that they need, items where procuring them is just non-negotiable. But you don't need a Star Trek book, much as you may love them. So, no, I don't object to them raising the price, and I have no pity for someone who does.

Especially since, hey, guess what? If you really want to read them, and you really can't afford to buy them? There's this wonderful thing called the public library.

Thix issue extends beyond just Star Trek eBooks. We used to have eBooks at a lot more reasonable prices. Now the Agency 6 have raised prices. They refuse to allow discounts or sales. So you are alright when a pBook can be discounted say 20% and that brings the price lower then the cost of the eBook which cannot be discounted at all? In fact, there are some Star trek eBooks that are actually priced higher (sans any discount) then the pBook. Steve Jobs (aka Apple) signed a contract with the agency publishers allowing them to set prices and that nobody is allowed to have lower eBooks prices then Apple. It's a scam and we are caught in the crossfire.

Not all libraries carry all Star Trek eBooks. Does your local library have Declassified? Mine do not.
Whatever, I just want to read the damn books, and long as they don't get ridiculously expensive I'm gonna keep reading the damn books. And if it comes down to it, I am willing to pay a little bit more for an ebook since the convenience of the format will make up for the price difference.
 
^ Not all public libraries carry Star Trek books - particularly paperbacks.

I have yet to encounter a public library that does not take requests, and most participate in an inter-library loan system these days.

ETA:

So S&S raises prices significantly and refuses to allow any discounts and you're happy with that? WTF? No wonder they get away with it if that's the majority attitude.

"Get away with it?"

Dude, it's a goddamn Star Trek book. We're not talking about an item essential to human life, dignity, and liberty here. This isn't the price of food or gas or healthcare. It's a luxury item -- and a relatively inexpensive luxury item, even at its most expensive!

I get irritated at companies that are trying to screw people over by charging too much for items that they need, items where procuring them is just non-negotiable. But you don't need a Star Trek book, much as you may love them. So, no, I don't object to them raising the price, and I have no pity for someone who does.

Especially since, hey, guess what? If you really want to read them, and you really can't afford to buy them? There's this wonderful thing called the public library.

Thix issue extends beyond just Star Trek eBooks. We used to have eBooks at a lot more reasonable prices. Now the Agency 6 have raised prices. They refuse to allow discounts or sales. So you are alright when a pBook can be discounted say 20% and that brings the price lower then the cost of the eBook which cannot be discounted at all?

I may not like it, but I don't get outraged over it. It's a luxury item -- it's not something essential to my life or liberty. If it bothers me that much, I'll just not buy it.

I'm very much a Socialist when it comes to industries producing goods essential to life and liberty. I believe strongly that there should be greater taxation of the wealthy elite and greater spending on social programs and safety nets. I believe that health care is a right and we ought to have universal, single-payer health care. I believe that Wall Street is the most corrupt yet powerful place on Earth, and that the U.S. government should have nationalized the banks that caused this recession through irresponsible speculation and/or placed much more stringent conditions on bailouts. I object to things like vast inherited wealth. Etc.

But when it comes to luxury items that you just don't need? When it comes to items that are, frankly, a sign of minor affluence more than anything else, like an eBook? Then I'm very much a Capitalist. You don't need the eBook, so let the market decide what the price should be. If enough people get pissed at a given practice, then they won't buy it and the price will go down or the ePublishing industry will collapse.

Now, mind you, I'm perfectly happy to object when they do things like, say, delete copies of Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-Four from users' personal eBook libraries. That's an invasion of privacy. But setting a price higher than you think they should? No pity.
 
I guess the reason I don't have a problem with ebooks costing the same as a paperback is because I'm getting the same thing as the PB.

It's possible that you are. What you need to understand is that not everyone is. If you're someone who keeps every book you read in pristine condition on shelves, then (other than not having them on display to show off) you're getting the same thing.

If you're the sort of person who either lends or gives books they're done with to friends, re-sells them on Ebay or to used bookstores, or donates them to charity, then you're not getting the same thing at all. You'll losing a whole ton of value that isn't reflected in the price.

This is the important thing: people approach books in different ways. Just because an eBook and paperback offer the same experience to you, it doesn't mean that they do to everyone.

As for letting the market sort itself out, and that the price is what people will pay, that's fair enough. But I think it's important to note that a lot of people have already made the choice to vote with their wallet. But now they no longer also feel the need to deprive themselves of the product as there are other ways to get it rather than buying it these days.

The binary choice of either: it's worth it to you, so you buy it, or it's not so you go without doesn't exist any more. "I want it, but it's an unfair price so I'll just take it" is a third option.

[And yes that's morally wrong and damaging to the industry and I'm not defending it, but it is happening].

Prices on paperback books (seriously, who calls them "pBooks" other than you?) have gone up many times before and will surely go up again in the future. When Pocket first began publishing Trek novels in 1979, they cost $2.50. Now they're $7.99. That's a 220% increase in 32 years, which is about even with the increase in average movie ticket prices in the same interval.
Never thought about that before, and it's kind of interesting, don't you think? As the cost of recorded music (vinyl, CDs) and film/TV (videos, DVDs) has dropped dramatically over the same period. Videogames are the only other home media I can think of and those prices increases have remained below inflation.

These industries all share the common trait of having to deal with digitalization (and the general result has been digital copies being a little bit, but not significantly cheaper) but books are the only place where the source product has been consistently rising in price.
 
^ Not all public libraries carry Star Trek books - particularly paperbacks.

I have yet to encounter a public library that does not take requests, and most participate in an inter-library loan system these days.

Unfortunately, neither of those options are always helpful. The last system I lived in charged 5 dollars for each inter-library loan request, in addition to any fees charged by the lending library; essentially, inter-library loans cost as much as buying a mass-market paperback at full price.

The last three systems, further, were interested in recommendations, but saw little demand for the few Star Trek novels they already carried. Non-fiction circulated well at one, but non-fiction Star Trek books aren't published very often - nevermind that they still aren't the novels.

But when it comes to luxury items that you just don't need? When it comes to items that are, frankly, a sign of minor affluence more than anything else, like an eBook? Then I'm very much a Capitalist. You don't need the eBook, so let the market decide what the price should be. If enough people get pissed at a given practice, then they won't buy it and the price will go down or the ePublishing industry will collapse.
The ultimate problem with the ebook market - as with many similar markets, like digital music, home video, etc. - is that it is distorted, not fully capitalist. The current structure of intellectual property law grants monopolies to content owners that prevent effective competition and true market pricing. Mass-abandonment or the use of some other monopoly or near monopoly is usually necessary to provoke any change in practices that benefits the consumer.

As it happens, readers have been abandoning the publishing industry. A 2007 report produced by the National Endowment for the Arts (Research Report #47) found that between 1992 and 2002, the percentage of adult Americans who had read a book not required for work or school in the preceding year declined from 61% to 57%. The declines in several age groups were more pronounced. Seven percent of both 35-44 year-olds and 18-24 year-olds disappeared from the reading population.

Between 1985 and 2005, average household spending on books declined 54%, adjusted for inflation (I use a form of the unskilled wage adjustor, not the CPI; the former better predicts the prices of inexpensive luxury goods such as books, movie tickets, comic books, magazines, pre-internet newspapers, etc.). Consumer book sales declined 6% between 2000 and 2006 alone.

It would be easy to suggest that the decline in readership over the two decades examined in the report is due to competition from video games, home video, cable/satellite television, and the internet, but the report also found that recreational reading among children under 13 remained steady despite those influences (which now take up a large part of children's days, but seem to have drawn their time from activities other than reading).

Falling readership, however, seems to have produced little change in the publishing industry. Like the music industry, they seem to have assumed that the problem they face is technological and external, not one of their own making. The simple fact is, though, that the market is not capitalist; it is distorted by monopoly. And monopoly breeds inefficiency.
 
^ Not all public libraries carry Star Trek books - particularly paperbacks.

I have yet to encounter a public library that does not take requests, and most participate in an inter-library loan system these days.

Unfortunately, neither of those options are always helpful. The last system I lived in charged 5 dollars for each inter-library loan request, in addition to any fees charged by the lending library; essentially, inter-library loans cost as much as buying a mass-market paperback at full price.

That's unfortunate. The inter-library loan system at the local public library in my home town was as free as borrowing from the library itself. (I have yet to utilize the local library since moving to the D.C. Metro Area.) I guess this varies from place to place.

But when it comes to luxury items that you just don't need? When it comes to items that are, frankly, a sign of minor affluence more than anything else, like an eBook? Then I'm very much a Capitalist. You don't need the eBook, so let the market decide what the price should be. If enough people get pissed at a given practice, then they won't buy it and the price will go down or the ePublishing industry will collapse.
The ultimate problem with the ebook market - as with many similar markets, like digital music, home video, etc. - is that it is distorted, not fully capitalist. The current structure of intellectual property law grants monopolies to content owners that prevent effective competition and true market pricing. Mass-abandonment or the use of some other monopoly or near monopoly is usually necessary to provoke any change in practices that benefits the consumer.
Which is fair enough. But I just can't bring myself to feel truly angry or outraged over it, either. Too many other things in the world that are worthy of outrage, y'know?
 
But I just can't bring myself to feel truly angry or outraged over it, either. Too many other things in the world that are worthy of outrage, y'know?

Which is quite reasonable, but there's some suggestions on this thread that people should just shut up and accept things, which I've never got. It happens all over the internet and it baffles the hell of me.

Basically, a company will do something a little bit shitty, but not too bad, and some people will get narked enough by it that they'll start making a noise and trying to change things.

Most people don't really care, but can see that those guys are trying to stand up for their rights as a consumer and let them get on with it.

But then, other people, and people, as far as I can tell who aren't shareholders in the companies in question, feel the need to defend the big company and denigrate the efforts of the people who are trying to kick up a fuss. And not in a way to argue that the company is right and is doing the best thing, but in a "shut up and just accept it" way.

There's some weird desire to actively support the big companies for no reason I can really understand. As I say, it's not just here, it happens even more in other places (videogames and Steam is the big one). But, well, if you truly don't care, you wouldn't be posting on the thread.
 
I guess the reason I don't have a problem with ebooks costing the same as a paperback is because I'm getting the same thing as the PB.

It's possible that you are. What you need to understand is that not everyone is. If you're someone who keeps every book you read in pristine condition on shelves, then (other than not having them on display to show off) you're getting the same thing.

If you're the sort of person who either lends or gives books they're done with to friends, re-sells them on Ebay or to used bookstores, or donates them to charity, then you're not getting the same thing at all. You'll losing a whole ton of value that isn't reflected in the price.

This is the important thing: people approach books in different ways. Just because an eBook and paperback offer the same experience to you, it doesn't mean that they do to everyone.

As for letting the market sort itself out, and that the price is what people will pay, that's fair enough. But I think it's important to note that a lot of people have already made the choice to vote with their wallet. But now they no longer also feel the need to deprive themselves of the product as there are other ways to get it rather than buying it these days.

The binary choice of either: it's worth it to you, so you buy it, or it's not so you go without doesn't exist any more. "I want it, but it's an unfair price so I'll just take it" is a third option.

[And yes that's morally wrong and damaging to the industry and I'm not defending it, but it is happening].
I'm not saying everyone should feel the way I do, I'm just talking about myself. As for the stuff you mention, I don't lend books to people, but I do take old books into used book stores, donate them to libraries, and give them to friends/family. And while I do agree that it is annoying that I can't do that stuff with ebooks, I guess I'm just willing to give it up to go digital. Although with the Nook you do have get the Lend Me option on certain books, so as long as the person I want to lend stuff to has a Nook, I do still have that option.
 
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