Memory Wall scene?

[QuasarVM]

Black box models aren't anything new; in CE3K they shot a real tollgate, then, in order to get the saucers to fly through them, Jein built black metal boxes that lined up with the real tollgates, then flew the saucers through them on poles and laid that in over the live-action. Of course, that was a lock-off shot, but since Abel and Taylor were ambitious, it would make sense to try to 'up the ante' on TREK. Plus, Trumbull talks about being able to 'scale' camera moves on CE3K, by just dialing in the difference between models and live-action. THAT sounds like what would have been needed on TREK, so again, maybe they were doing hardware/software stuff so that the E&S previs could be ported from mo-con setup to mo-con setup, with 'scaling' already built into the camera directions.

That trench shot in the cards was the one card I had for awhile. A friend had the set, and I got him to let me have that one when he moved. Looked much better than the test on the dvd.

My point is that in most SF movies no two models of the same craft at different scales are identical. The black model examples aren't generally objects that shift perspective during a shot. This is why I say I think it would be difficult to make elements with two different models match, especially given issues with perspective, etc. that you'd get from having the models of different sizes. I'm not saying it's impossible...just difficult.

EDIT ADDON: Right after I sent this, I remembered Trumbull saying that Abel's people were shooting the models without motion blur, like stop motion setups (like Ferren/Wallach stuff in TFF, to give a more painful example.) There is support for that story, since Magicam said Abel's folks were claiming the filaments on their model lights would be visible on film and blow the scale, and I can only imagine that being the case if everything was absolutely still in frame.

Ugh...that would've been horrible!! Comparisons with Bran Ferren's FX sends shivvers down my spine.

God-awful -- if that was the look they were going for.

I dunno though...I have a hard time believing they were going for that kind of look. It certainly doesn't fit with any of Abel's other work -- which is generally outstanding, IMO...

 

[trevanian]

My point is that in most SF movies no two models of the same craft at different scales are identical. The black model examples aren't generally objects that shift perspective during a shot. This is why I say I think it would be difficult to make elements with two different models match, especially given issues with perspective, etc. that you'd get from having the models of different sizes. I'm not saying it's impossible...just difficult.

EDIT ADDON: Right after I sent this, I remembered Trumbull saying that Abel's people were shooting the models without motion blur, like stop motion setups (like Ferren/Wallach stuff in TFF, to give a more painful example.) There is support for that story, since Magicam said Abel's folks were claiming the filaments on their model lights would be visible on film and blow the scale, and I can only imagine that being the case if everything was absolutely still in frame.

Ugh...that would've been horrible!! Comparisons with Bran Ferren's FX sends shivvers down my spine.

God-awful -- if that was the look they were going for.

I dunno though...I have a hard time believing they were going for that kind of look. It certainly doesn't fit with any of Abel's other work -- which is generally outstanding, IMO...

Abel's tv work was multipass, but not with a ton of matting as I recall. They had almost zero experience with the kinds of model shoots trek entailed (just like Ferren's folks), and were probably in the learning curve about what kind of matte fringe you get with blurred objects. The ILM guys took more than a year to put together a decent comp on the first SW, and they had help from a guy going back to KING KONG. I think it was a stage-time solution, not an artistic one; the magicam stories were that Abel wanted to do all of the separate light exposures on each frame before going onto the next.

 

[QuasarVM]

EDIT ADDON: Right after I sent this, I remembered Trumbull saying that Abel's people were shooting the models without motion blur, like stop motion setups (like Ferren/Wallach stuff in TFF, to give a more painful example.) There is support for that story, since Magicam said Abel's folks were claiming the filaments on their model lights would be visible on film and blow the scale, and I can only imagine that being the case if everything was absolutely still in frame.

Ugh...that would've been horrible!! Comparisons with Bran Ferren's FX sends shivvers down my spine.

God-awful -- if that was the look they were going for.

I dunno though...I have a hard time believing they were going for that kind of look. It certainly doesn't fit with any of Abel's other work -- which is generally outstanding, IMO...

Abel's tv work was multipass, but not with a ton of matting as I recall. They had almost zero experience with the kinds of model shoots trek entailed (just like Ferren's folks), and were probably in the learning curve about what kind of matte fringe you get with blurred objects. The ILM guys took more than a year to put together a decent comp on the first SW, and they had help from a guy going back to KING KONG. I think it was a stage-time solution, not an artistic one; the magicam stories were that Abel wanted to do all of the separate light exposures on each frame before going onto the next.

Can't argue with that...I just think Abels had better people than Bran Ferren did. Well, I know they did.

 

[DestinyCaptain]

Bran Ferren said in an interview in 1989 on CBS's NightWatch with Charlie Rose that he considered the effect of Star Trek "pretty simple and easy to do". Yes, I agree. The effects he did for Star Trek were pretty simple and looked easy to do compared to what ILM and everyone else could do. He's a real master......

 

[QuasarVM]

Bran Ferren said in an interview in 1989 on CBS's NightWatch with Charlie Rose that he considered the effect of Star Trek "pretty simple and easy to do". Yes, I agree. The effects he did for Star Trek were pretty simple and looked easy to do compared to what ILM and everyone else could do. He's a real master......

I assume you are being sarcastic...

If so, I agree! I read somewhere that when ILM used the Enterprise model again after Star Trek V for the Undiscovered Country, they found a rubber lizard inside the model...

 

[trevanian]

Bran Ferren said in an interview in 1989 on CBS's NightWatch with Charlie Rose that he considered the effect of Star Trek "pretty simple and easy to do". Yes, I agree. The effects he did for Star Trek were pretty simple and looked easy to do compared to what ILM and everyone else could do. He's a real master......

I assume you are being sarcastic...

If so, I agree! I read somewhere that when ILM used the Enterprise model again after Star Trek V for the Undiscovered Country, they found a rubber lizard inside the model...

I think that was in there from TMP. Ferren's people had no reason to cut into the model that I know of, and in fact, the model was not designed for easy internal access, which is why they used neon for so much of it, because it lasts forever. Except for switching the wire trunks around depending on cam angle, I doubt Ferren and Wallach did much internal work on the ship.

 

[Maurice]

If so, I agree! I read somewhere that when ILM used the Enterprise model again after Star Trek V for the Undiscovered Country, they found a rubber lizard inside the model...

I think that was in there from TMP. Ferren's people had no reason to cut into the model that I know of, and in fact, the model was not designed for easy internal access, which is why they used neon for so much of it, because it lasts forever. Except for switching the wire trunks around depending on cam angle, I doubt Ferren and Wallach did much internal work on the ship.

Well, there were five access panels on the model for the mounting points, so putting a rubber lizard into the model could've happened at any point after it was built.

 

[DestinyCaptain]

I recall a story, I don't remember if it was from Trek 5 or 6, where the FX team recieved the model from where it was from and it was in bad shape. The lighting frills on one of the nacelles was shattered and black spray paint had been plastered all over one side of the model. I am thinking that this was ILM getting the model back after Trek 5. I am not sure. Anyone remember this?

 

[QuasarVM]

If so, I agree! I read somewhere that when ILM used the Enterprise model again after Star Trek V for the Undiscovered Country, they found a rubber lizard inside the model...

I think that was in there from TMP. Ferren's people had no reason to cut into the model that I know of, and in fact, the model was not designed for easy internal access, which is why they used neon for so much of it, because it lasts forever. Except for switching the wire trunks around depending on cam angle, I doubt Ferren and Wallach did much internal work on the ship.

Well, there were five access panels on the model for the mounting points, so putting a rubber lizard into the model could've happened at any point after it was built.

That's what I seem to recall as well...so, no...doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to put a rubber lizard in the model if one were so inclined...

 

[trevanian]

I recall a story, I don't remember if it was from Trek 5 or 6, where the FX team recieved the model from where it was from and it was in bad shape. The lighting frills on one of the nacelles was shattered and black spray paint had been plastered all over one side of the model. I am thinking that this was ILM getting the model back after Trek 5. I am not sure. Anyone remember this?

They had to rewire and repaint it, but nobody ever told me anything about nacelle breakage. There was a ton of white paint all over the klingon battleship, apparently courtesy of the Florida STAR TREK thing borrowing the model.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I read somewhere that when ILM used the Enterprise model again after Star Trek V for the Undiscovered Country, they found a rubber lizard inside the model...

Pre-empting, by many years, the "Enterprise" two-parter episode, where a Constitution class vessel ended up in the Mirror Universe with a CGI Gorn inside!

 

[Maurice]

I read somewhere that when ILM used the Enterprise model again after Star Trek V for the Undiscovered Country, they found a rubber lizard inside the model...

Pre-empting, by many years, the "Enterprise" two-parter episode, where a Constitution class vessel ended up in the Mirror Universe with a CGI Gorn inside!

Better still, where a CGI model vessel had a CGI rubber lizard inside!

 

[QuasarVM]

You guys are on a roll!

 

[Cryogenic]

Hey, if they'd actually built the super-sized Enterprise of STXI, maybe they'd have been able to squeeze Khan's fake chest inside. Stranger things have happened.

 

[QuasarVM]

Hey, if they'd actually built the super-sized Enterprise of STXI, maybe they'd have been able to squeeze Khan's fake chest inside. Stranger things have happened.

Even Mr. Montalban swore it was actually HIS chest...

 

[Cryogenic]

Hey, if they'd actually built the super-sized Enterprise of STXI, maybe they'd have been able to squeeze Khan's fake chest inside. Stranger things have happened.

Even Mr. Montalban swore it was actually HIS chest...

People lie. Does anyone believe he didn't wear a wig (as Khan *and* in real life)?

Ignoring the fact that this image is reversed, I'd like someone to explain why his sternum is so wide, or what those black lines beneath his pecs are all about:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/bonus_twokhd/farewell/farewell016.jpg

It's either the worst make-up job in the world, or there's something more than make-up going on. That necklace and shoulder strap are probably in service of something more than simple costuming, too.

Further, Ricardo Montalban said he got into shape by doing "lots of push-ups". It's almost a non-answer. No-one gets their chest into that condition without serious gym work, least of all a man in their sixties.

Call me a cynic if you wish (I prefer the term realist), but I remain unconvinced.

 

[JarodRussell]

It was his real chest. Look at other movies he did. He simply was a very fit actor.

 

[Cryogenic]

It was his real chest. Look at other movies he did. He [simply] was a very fit actor.

I'm aware of this. Nor did I claim otherwise. In fact, Montalban's posture, his frame, his square jaw and his whole demeanour have always impressed me. But something doesn't add up about various aspects of TWOK, including Khan's chest. Try addressing mine and other's points more often, instead of making one-line counter assertions all the time, OK?

 

[JarodRussell]

I have more things to do in my life, so I only have time for one-liners.

 

[Shatinator]

Soo..this thread is not really about the memory wall..right?