Memory Alpha has changed the name Rhaandarite to Vegan

[Therin of Andor]

The sticking point is that "Vegan" comes from a script direction, and all the other new alien species' names (including "Rhaandarite") come from Fletcher & Phillips' notes in the production materials (and the LA Times Syndicate comic strip and Marvel's comic), but at Memory Alpha script trumps other sources when nothing canonical is evident.

I would prefer they'd left the entry at "Rhaandarite", since the titles of Fletcher's drawings indicate that Vegans became Rhaandarites very early in production. And yes, Walter Koenig's "Chekov's Enterprise" diary relates the anecdote of "the geek" being used on set.

I was never under the impression that Billy Van Zandt's character in TMP was Dobius the Tanian. That book character had a "bifurcated head". At the time of the publication of "Triangle", I recalled it was an odd choice since the most bifurcated TMP alien was the fluorine-breathing Zaranite - and M&C had chosen to make their Zaranites (in "Triangle") oxygen-breathing humanoids. (IIRC, they also assumed that TOS Catullans were cat-like.)

 

[Christopher]

The sticking point is that "Vegan" comes from a script direction, and all the other new alien species' names (including "Rhaandarite") come from Fletcher & Phillips' notes in the production materials (and the LA Times Syndicate comic strip and Marvel's comic), but at Memory Alpha script trumps other sources when nothing canonical is evident.

Which, as I said in my talk-page comment, makes no sense, since the script is just the first stage of the process. It's not an inviolable text, it's just the battle plan for an undertaking that will inevitably require changes along the way.

(IIRC, they also assumed that TOS Catullans were cat-like.)

Seriously? Did they never see a picture of Tongo Rad? I mean, I know we're talking about Marshak and Culbreath, and they did have some infamously... idiosyncratic ideas, but you'd think they'd actually seen the episodes enough times to know something like this.

 

[Leto_II]

Which, as I said in my talk-page comment, makes no sense, since the script is just the first stage of the process. It's not an inviolable text, it's just the battle plan for an undertaking that will inevitably require changes along the way.

Agreed wholeheartedly, but sadly, to many of those people, Hollywood screenplays/screenwriting = "prestige," and spinoff material = "merchandise" at best ("outsourced mercenary work-for-hire" at worst). As if one is any more "real" than the other, but it's basically a third-tier form of starfucking.

Dunno why they wouldn't give costume maestro Robert Fletcher's own corrections to this (in the actual studio production-materials) legitimacy, but there it is, unfortunately. It'd probably take something like Robert Wise himself actually using the term on the audio commentary or whatever for them to be swayed enough to change their minds on this.

 

[Christopher]

Agreed wholeheartedly, but sadly, to many of those people, screenplays/screenwriting = "prestige," and spinoff material = "merchandise" at best ("outsourced mercenary work-for-hire" at worst).

But Robert Fletcher's production memos are not spinoff material. They're documents from the original creative process of the film, just as much as the script itself.

 

[Leto_II]

^ Exactly. It's pretty damn mystifying. As you mention, the memos themselves represent a much closer approximation to the actual finished product than those early drafts, but evidently the Livingston/Roddenberry script somehow ranks "higher" in their estimation than "mere" production memos (or something).

It's like still insisting upon spelling William Riker's last name "Ryker" in fanatical deference to that original, very early TNG bible, despite it having obviously evolved since then.

 

[Christopher]

What's more, as I and others have pointed out on the talk page, the script doesn't even specify which aliens are the "Vegans." So claiming that this is putting the script above all is false.

 

[Avro Arrow]

So if I'm reading this right, this change was made because a) the script refers to "high-domed Vegans" (even though, as Christopher noted above, it doesn't specify which aliens it is referring to), and b) some extra on TMP who had an alien makeup similar to Billy Van Zandt's did an interview where he claimed he was told he was playing a Vegan? That seems... flimsy, at best.

Meanwhile, we've got Fletcher's notes identifying Van Zandt's species as "Rhaandarite", and this information has been included in The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and IIRC, the programs produced for TMP, which also included pictures of the aliens they identified.

And MA doesn't seem to have a problem using Arkenite or Efrosian... the Efrosian article even states:

The name for this species never appeared in any script, dialogue, or production graphic. It was noted, however, in Paramount's initial publicity photos for Star Trek IV.

Besides, didn't all the Vegans die off when the Vegan Tyranny fell? Or something.

If there *are* Vegans, it was sure nice of them to let Earth set up a human colony in their system!

(PS - that MA Vegan article has Veygaan Xuur's last name spelled wrong...)

 

[Extrocomp]

I think I screwed up. I should've picked up on Christopher's argument that the script never actually identifies which aliens are Vegans. Instead I focused on criticizing the script, criticizing the policy and trying to convince everyone that newer names should always take precedence.

Now that I have picked up on the script's ambiguity, I fear that it will be ignored because everyone is really annoyed at me.

 

[Extrocomp]

UPDATE

I'm happy to report that the Memory Alpha page is called Rhaandarite once again. Thanks for your help Christopher.

 

[Greg Cox]

But Robert Fletcher's production memos are not spinoff material. They're documents from the original creative process of the film, just as much as the script itself.

For what it's worth, if I'm writing a novelization and the production art contradicts the script, I don't immediately assume that the script trumps the art. And if an actual photo from the movie set contradicts the script, the photo wins.

True story: a script once explicitly described a character as Asian, then I saw that they had cast a black actor in the part, so, of course, I described him as a black in the novelization--despite what the original script said.

Scripts are not sacred. They're just the blueprint for what gets built on top of them.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm happy to report that the Memory Alpha page is called Rhaandarite once again. Thanks for your help Christopher.

Yay! That "error correction" to Vegan was so frustrating! Thanks everyone!


Pop! Trek by Ian McLean, on Flickr

 

[Markonian]

The MA discussion was civil and enjoyable to read. However, renaming the article to Vegan l without a vote was highly irregular.

In the end, authority was questioned, a fault in the policy discovered, and the authority was confirmed. A civil process.

Anyone want to stir up some fire to keep it going? I believe the German MA eschews names like Akira and Saber class because off-screen material is not accepted.

 

[Relayer1]

This takes the award for the most trivial, non-important thing Trekkies have wet their pants over.

That really does read like a challenge...

 

[Kemaiku]

7 months late but alright.

 

[Jinn]

I believe the German MA eschews names like Akira and Saber class because off-screen material is not accepted.

Yup, that's correct. In Germany we call the Akira class the NCC-63549-type. We also call the Gorn captain "~/Person/TOS/1x19/1". Of course that's just Memory Alpha. In the German Memory Beta we (that is us three active users) call the "NCC-63549-type" Akira class.

 

[Avro Arrow]

UPDATE

I'm happy to report that the Memory Alpha page is called Rhaandarite once again. Thanks for your help Christopher.

First this, then the RNC tries to figure out how to oust Trump. The world is suddenly taking a turn for the better.

Yup, that's correct. In Germany we call the Akira class the NCC-63549-type. We also call the Gorn captain "~/Person/TOS/1x19/1". Of course that's just Memory Alpha. In the German Memory Beta we (that is us three active users) call it the Akira class.

You call the Gorn captain "Akira Class"? That's just weird.

 

[Tuskin38]

Memory-Alpha is still arguing over whether or not the JJ-Universe article should be renamed to Kelvin Timeline.

That place is full of arguments over what is and shouldn't be. That is the nature of a franchise (and wikis in general)

 

[Jinn]

You call the Gorn captain "Akira Class"? That's just weird.

You've got to admit though, the Gorn captain could be a Starjelly and just transform into an Akira class ship.

Fun Fact: While writing a post I sometimes insert sentences in the middle of a previously working and logic text. The way Trump is perceived in public is a lot more negative than before. Then stuff like this happenes.

Memory-Alpha is still arguing over whether or not the JJ-Universe article should be renamed to Kelvin Timeline.

Wait, they're still arguing? MA has very strict guidelines of what is canon and what not. EIther the Kelvin timeline's name falls under the canon part or not. In the german MB we have already changed all the "Alternate Timeline" to "Kelvin Timeline" and we don't even have that many rules, just that generally relaunch trumps older book and... Yeah that's pretty much it.

 

[Extrocomp]

Actually, Memory Alpha's guidelines are a bit vague when it comes to which background sources can be used as article names.

For those who enjoy reading Memory Alpha arguments, here are a few more:

Forum:Alternate reality official name
Forum:Is the AR info applicable to the PR
Talk:Earth-Kzin Wars
Talk:Kzinti
Talk:Rigellian

And here are a few good ones from Memory Beta:

Forum:Becoming an administrator (part 1)
Forum:How does one speak to an admin? (part 2)
Forum:Why is this wiki not allowing admin status for major contributors? (part 3)
Talk:Blastoneuron

 

[Christopher]

What I find bizarre about the Memory Alpha argument -- and I commented on this in one of the talk pages -- is that they're treating "alternate reality" as if it were an actual proper name for a specific individual timeline, rather than just a category identifier like "red giant star" or "dwarf galaxy." There have been other timelines in Trek that have been described in dialogue as alternate realities, so it's obviously meant as a generic label rather than a specific one. Nobody would argue that the article for Vulcan should be renamed "Desert planet" or that the article for Data should be renamed "Positronic android."