Members of the Federation.

[Sci]

^ I know one thing, the inner workings of Tellarite government are probably hilarious to watch. I'd love to get a seat at the gallery when their legislature is in session. Given how blunt Tellarites are...the arguments would be legendary.

Oh God. Can you imagine a Tellarite version of Prime Minister's Questions?

We know Earth as Sol III, Vulcan as 40 Eridani A, and Alpha Centauri Concordium's capital world being Alpha Centauri III. I'd like to know which in-system position are Tellar Prime and Andor/Andoria.

Star Trek: Star Charts identifies Tellar with 61 Cygni, and Andor with Procyon. I seem to remember that Procyon has become a less popular hypothesis lately, but I can't remember why.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I know one thing, the inner workings of Tellarite government are probably hilarious to watch. I'd love to get a seat at the gallery when their legislature is in session. Given how blunt Tellarites are...the arguments would be legendary.

Oh God. Can you imagine a Tellarite version of Prime Minister's Questions?

"Hey, you, down on the floor! Yeah, you! 'Big Cheese' my snout! You couldn't legislate your way out of a paper bag! And your face looks like a cheap Halloween mask! Oh, wait..."

 

[Deranged Nasat]

"This honourable and intelligent colleague of mine..."

"That is unCivil language! I demand you withdraw it!"

"This flea-bitten son of a backstreets whore and an Andorian mercenary..."

"Better".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I wonder what would happen if a Tellarite and a Zaldan (from "Coming of Age") met. They both like to argue and are offended by courtesy, but would they like each other? Think about it...

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I wonder what would happen if a Tellarite and a Zaldan (from "Coming of Age") met. They both like to argue and are offended by courtesy, but would they like each other? Think about it...

I think they'd just annoy each other, personally. Tellarites love to bluster, exaggerate, and make mountains out of molehills; Zaldans say how they really feel. The Tellarites are masking their true feelings much of the time (especially feelings of insecurity or inadequacy). The Zaldans, I think, would see that as discourtesy, like all deception. The Tellarites, meanwhile, would get annoyed if a Zaldan said "I find your manners rude, but overall I am indifferent towards you", or, Kera and Phinda forbid, "I have nothing to complain about".

 

[Paper Moon]

We know Earth as Sol III, Vulcan as 40 Eridani A, and Alpha Centauri Concordium's capital world being Alpha Centauri III. I'd like to know which in-system position are Tellar Prime and Andor/Andoria.

Star Trek: Star Charts identifies Tellar with 61 Cygni, and Andor with Procyon. I seem to remember that Procyon has become a less popular hypothesis lately, but I can't remember why.

Christopher would be able to speak much more knowledgeably about this than I, but I believe it's because recent findings have suggested that real-world Procyon is both inconsistent with what's been shown onscreen, and is generally not likely to support life. (See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procyon#Possibility_of_life)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Tellarites love to bluster, exaggerate, and make mountains out of molehills; Zaldans say how they really feel. The Tellarites are masking their true feelings much of the time (especially feelings of insecurity or inadequacy). The Zaldans, I think, would see that as discourtesy, like all deception. The Tellarites, meanwhile, would get annoyed if a Zaldan said "I find your manners rude, but overall I am indifferent towards you", or, Kera and Phinda forbid, "I have nothing to complain about".

I think I get the thrust of the gist. Tellarites insult people all the time...but Zaldans simply say what's on their mind, which may or may not be insulting? Meaning, a Zaldan could be friendly if he or she likes you? I think I get it. (It would help if we had ever seen more than one Zaldan...)

Fun fact:

Spoiler: novels

The one Zaldan we DID see, eventually becomes a starship captain, and apparently keeps a Vulcan around for when first contact situations come by. I thought that was pretty funny, actually.

 

[Christopher]

Procyon was never a good candidate for hosting habitable planets, due to its white dwarf companion. We knew that decades ago. But then, neither are most of the real named stars mentioned in Trek like Rigel, Deneb, Altair, etc. The problem is that the stars bright enough to be known by name are usually the biggest and hottest ones, and thus the most short-lived ones, simply not lasting long enough for intelligent life to evolve around them.

Andor was traditionally associated in fandom with Epsilon Indi, because The Star Fleet Technical Manual listed it and 61 Cygni as founding members of the UFP and the later Star Fleet Medical Reference Manual chose to identify them with Andor and Tellar respectively (even though Franz Joseph evidently intended them to be human colonies, judging from the depicted flags and seals). It wasn't until Star Charts decades later that it was "moved" to Procyon. Presumably the reason Mandel moved it there was because ENT established Vulcan and Andoria as neighboring systems, and Procyon is 13 light-years from 40 Eridani while Epsilon Indi is 19 ly away. But other than that it's a really bad candidate.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The Poisoned Chalice embraced Epsilon Indi once again, though that does conflict with Draylax being there in the Enterprise novels (and the Star Charts)

Draylax orbits Beta Epsilon Indi! You heard it here first!

 

[Skywalker]

I'd actually forgotten about the earlier Epsilon Indi connection.

Which ENT novel placed Draylax in the Epsilon Indi system, Nasat? I seem to have forgotten that, too.

 

[Sci]

The Poisoned Chalice embraced Epsilon Indi once again, though that does conflict with Draylax being there in the Enterprise novels (and the Star Charts)

Draylax orbits Beta Epsilon Indi! You heard it here first!

I seem to remember the Andor system being referenced as Procyon in Titan: Fallen Gods, but I may be mistaken.

 

[Enterprise1701]

We know Earth as Sol III, Vulcan as 40 Eridani A, and Alpha Centauri Concordium's capital world being Alpha Centauri III. I'd like to know which in-system position are Tellar Prime and Andor/Andoria.

According to Star Charts, Andor is located in the Procyon system, orbiting the eighth planet in that system. I believe Kobayashi Maru and Beneath the Raptor's Wing both mentioned this as well. Multiple sources indicate that Tellar Prime is located in the 61 Cygni system, with Worlds of the Federation identifying it as the system's fifth planet.

No, Star Charts came out before Andor/Andoria was identified as a moon and not a planet. Therefore I desire more official identification in a modern novel.

 

[Sci]

We know Earth as Sol III, Vulcan as 40 Eridani A, and Alpha Centauri Concordium's capital world being Alpha Centauri III. I'd like to know which in-system position are Tellar Prime and Andor/Andoria.

According to Star Charts, Andor is located in the Procyon system, orbiting the eighth planet in that system. I believe Kobayashi Maru and Beneath the Raptor's Wing both mentioned this as well. Multiple sources indicate that Tellar Prime is located in the 61 Cygni system, with Worlds of the Federation identifying it as the system's fifth planet.

No, Star Charts came out before Andor/Andoria was identified as a moon and not a planet.

So what? Problems with the traits of the Procyon star are way more important in deciding whether to accept it as Andor's star than whether Andor is a moon or planet.

 

[Sci]

So of the founding members, that leaves us with one where we don't know its basic constitutional framework -- Tellar! All we really know about them is that their state is known as the United Planets of Tellar (A Choice of Futures, Tower of Babel). Are they led by a President? Governor? Prime Minister? Chancellor? Minister for the General Administration of the Cabinet? Elder of the State? Minister-President? Sultan? Statsminister? Chief Magistrate? Taoiseach?

The Gateways series mentions an historical High Councillor to the First Seat of Tellar. When the Tellarites were forming their first true world government, Ger, the current (the first?) High Councillor accepted the colAndor Scrolls from Andorian delegates, which were to serve (so the Andorians intended) as inspiration on how to make such a government function (my personal "headcanon" is that Thalisar the Last wrote these ). Ger later refused to give them back, saying that they'd been a gift, and he kicked the Andorians offworld. Things were sour after that. (It's not explained whether the Tellarites truly thought the Andorians were being two-faced in wanting them back, or whether this was just an excuse to start a really big argument, IE. the Tellarites were being Civil and the Andorians misread it as true hostility).

A bit obscure as regards the current continuity, but I've always liked it as a reason for initial cool feelings between Andorian and Tellarite.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/ColAndor_Scrolls

In the modern era, SCE insists that the name of the Tellarite head of state is near-impossible for Humans to pronounce (in the original Tellarite, I assume).

How about: Big Cheese of Tellar Prime?

Many thanks for that info!

If we presume that the ancestral offices established in Doors into Chaos still exist, perhaps that means that the First Seat of Tellar is the UPT's legislature, and the High Councillor is a prime-minister-like head of government?

Memory Beta informs me that the Decipher RPG manuel Worlds, on the other hand, establishes a Tellar Global Congress, located in a capital city called Eranas.

Hmmmm.

 

[Markonian]

Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.

 

[Hando]

Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.

Well, in that timeline the Andorian may have died out.

 

[Enterprise1701]

^ I know one thing, the inner workings of Tellarite government are probably hilarious to watch. I'd love to get a seat at the gallery when their legislature is in session. Given how blunt Tellarites are...the arguments would be legendary.

And aren't Tellarites the type to jump to conclusions? I bet they love bold accusations and filibusters.

Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.

I suppose maybe at that moment when the Federation takes out the Sphere Builders Andor's planet is on the opposite side of the Procyon system than Procyon V. That, however rests on if A. you accept Procyon as the Andorian home star and B. you accept the future shown in "Azati Prime" as the actual future. I do for both.

 

[Markonian]

Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.

I suppose maybe at that moment when the Federation takes out the Sphere Builders Andor's planet is on the opposite side of the Procyon system than Procyon V. That, however rests on if A. you accept Procyon as the Andorian home star and B. you accept the future shown in "Azati Prime" as the actual future. I do for both.

The future from "Azati Prime" was an alternate one from the start. In that timeline, the Xindi attack on Earth didn't occur and we had an ever-expanding expanse throughout TOS, TNG and afterwards. Archer's actions averted that timeline and led to a new one - where "our" TOS and TNG are set in. Thus, anything might have happend to the Andorians between 2153 and 2553 in the alternate future.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.

I suppose maybe at that moment when the Federation takes out the Sphere Builders Andor's planet is on the opposite side of the Procyon system than Procyon V. That, however rests on if A. you accept Procyon as the Andorian home star and B. you accept the future shown in "Azati Prime" as the actual future. I do for both.

The future from "Azati Prime" was an alternate one from the start. In that timeline, the Xindi attack on Earth didn't occur and we had an ever-expanding expanse throughout TOS, TNG and afterwards. Archer's actions averted that timeline and led to a new one - where "our" TOS and TNG are set in. Thus, anything might have happend to the Andorians between 2153 and 2553 in the alternate future.

How do you know that the Xindi attack on Earth didn't occur in the "Azati Prime" timeline? All Daniels says in the episode is that "I've brought you to a monumental moment in history." And the way I see it, the Sphere Builders are going to build more spheres in the prime timeline and thus the Battle of Procyon V will still occur.

 

[Christopher]

No, the future of "Azati Prime" was the original timeline in which the Federation blocked the Sphere Builders. The SBs goaded the Xindi to attack Earth in order to alter that timeline by preventing the Federation from ever existing. As I see it, the "Azati Prime" future was their first attempt to invade our universe and the creation of the Delphic Expanse was the second, creating a different timeline by intervening earlier in history.

Anyway, I'm missing a step in the logic behind this argument. What does it matter whether the Andorians are still around or where their planet is in its orbit? Procyon is still named Procyon whether they're there or not.