Meld vs. Repentence.

[Guy Gardener]

Nasty murderer gets his brain fiddled and suddenly becomes both downcast with guilt and wholly incapable of repeating the act again.

It's the same story.

However... Janeway was of completely different minds on the two men suffering through the same ordeal. With one, she forgave and the other, our Kathy continued to hold as a villain even though the both of them had been emotionally castrated quite well till they were Kim-like pussycats.

I suppose since it was one of her crew who Suder murdered, she's inclined to hold a grudge, but then if there was no personal impact on her life she's not indifferent to being fair minded about treating a body with a different mind fairly.

 

[AuntKate]

I think you've oversimplified "Meld" by saying it is just about a murderer having his brain fiddled with (through a mind meld) and becoming remorseful. It was also about the impact the murderer's mind had on Tuvok, effectively making him unstable. Yes, both men were part of Janeway's crew, giving her control over how they were treated and punished for their actions (or not). The lesson here was that the mind meld was more dangerous than Tuvok realized and was done without the captain's permission.

"Repentance" was similar in the way the murderer changed after having his brain fiddled with (this time with Seven's nanoprobes). The difference is that Janeway did not have control over the treatment and punishment of the prisoner because of the Prime Directive. She did what she could, however, by trying to have the victim's family forgive him, but that didn't work. I think she was saddened by what happened to the alien because she didn't continue to hold him "as a villain" and thought he deserved mercy. The lesson here is more about being merciful to people who are truly repentant.

The plots have similarities, but I think the ethics being explored make them much different.

 

[Cepstrum]

I don't think Janeway held a grudge against Suder. She didn't confine him to the brig but to his comfortable quarters. And he was still a sociopath. He did his best to come to tes with his mental condition and was even reluctant to kill in "Basics". But once he began killing it became a problem for him again, and he felt conflicted with guilt *and* the thrill of killing.

I'd say he was too unpredictable to be allowed to freely roam the halls, and I think he'd agree. Besides, he was neither a valuable crewman nor did he desire to serve on a ship. He joined the Maquis not to be a part of a space crew but to kill Cardassians. Even Chakotay was suspicious of him but allowed him to join because he was an effective killer. I don't think he was well-regarded by other Maquis, for rather than fighting for the cause, he fought to kill without recrimination. I'd say being left to himself in the rather luxurious quarters of Voyager was not an inappropriate action.

Finally, the guy in "Repentance" was different for two key reasons: he had a fixable, physical brain defect and was *not* under Janeway's control. He didn't request asylum, so unless she wanted to violate the PD again and risk conflict with the Nygeans, she had to turn him over. She really didn't even know for certain he was guilty, and he certainly didn't kill — without cause — one of her crew.

Even if he *did* request and receive asylum, we don't know what she would've done with him. She may yet have him semi-confined, too, as a precaution.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Voyager Crew lobbied for Iko against the survivors of his victims. Suder wanted to grow flowers and food. Janeway shut him down.

I'm not sure why Seven of Nine isn't being brought up into this conversation since the parallel was certainly hammed out in repentance that she figured if this guy could get a second break then so could she.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Suder wasn't fixed in "The Meld". The mind meld was the first step in a long series that allowed him to control his tendencies, a series he was still working on in Basics 1 & 2. His angry outburst at Janeway for throwing a roadblock at him in B1 shows how far he still needed to come.

The Dude in "Repentence", for want of a better word, was "fixed" by those pesky nanoprobes. The brain lesion wasn't his "fault" (unlike those who kill while under the influence of a drug they took willingly), it just "was" there before the nanoprobes and not after the nanoprobes.

Each season 4-7 shows us how Seven of Nine's own response to her past sins has grown, the longer she's in contact with Voyager/Janeway/the crew. (I realize some may see this as "inconsistent writing", again I see it as growth.)

Season 4's "Day of Honor":

TORRES: Tell me something. When you hear about people like the Caatati, do you have any feelings of remorse?
SEVEN: No.
TORRES: That's it? Just no?
SEVEN: What further answer do you require?
TORRES: Well maybe some kind of acknowledgement of the billions of lives you helped destroy. A justification for what you did. Maybe a little sense of guilt.
SEVEN: Guilt is irrelevant

Season 5's "Infinite Regress":

SEVEN: Blackwood. Captain of the Federation Starship Tombaugh. The Borg assimilated that vessel thirteen years ago.
EMH: The individual who made this recording must have been a member of the crew.
SEVEN: One of my victims.
EMH: Here's another log entry this one encoded for transmission.
SEVEN [OC]: Hi. Guess who? I know I promised to write you every day but that's simply not enough. How about once in the morning when I resuscitate and once at night before I go into torpor and I'll think about you non-stop in between. Wait, I've got a better idea! Why don't you leave your circle and visit the colony? You'd love it here, so.
EMH: Anything familiar?
SEVEN: I helped to assimilate thousands of individuals. I do not remember each of their names.

Season 6's "Memorial":

NEELIX: Seven? When you were a Borg, you were involved in some unpleasant activities.
SEVEN: I helped to assimilate millions.
NEELIX: I don't mean to be insensitive but, do you ever feel shame about what you did?
SEVEN: Frequently.
NEELIX: How to you manage to keep going knowing you've done such horrible things?
SEVEN: I have no choice.
NEELIX: Guilt is irrelevant?
SEVEN: On the contrary. My feelings of remorse help me remember what I did, and prevent me from taking similar actions in the future. Guilt can be a difficult but useful emotion.

And of course, season 7's "Repentence".

JANEWAY: I just finished looking over your warp core analysis.
SEVEN: And?
JANEWAY: I'm impressed. It usually takes a few days to finish one of these. B'Elanna tells me you did it in twenty two hours.
SEVEN: I haven't felt the need to regenerate.
JANEWAY: Everyone grieves in their own way. If you want to talk you know where to find me.

(Janeway turns to walk away)

SEVEN: It's unfair.
JANEWAY: I think so too, Seven, but we have to try not to judge their system.
SEVEN: That's not what I meant. Iko was executed for taking a single life. As a drone I took thousands, but I was never punished.
JANEWAY: You lost twenty years of your life to the Borg. I'd say that's punishment enough.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seven's growth is supposed to be huge part of the later seasons, and I'm not saying it didn't happen 9was supposed to have been happening), I only said that we weren't talking about it. Your quotes are interesting but I'm interested in what you extrapolate from that data to impact other areas of the show. IE Seven vs. Suder.

Suder wanted to change. No matter how half way there his limitators were to being intact and concrete, it's the thought that counts. besides every member of the crew will murder their enemies if Janeway, or any superior officer tells them to without question. So retaining the ability to kill is not so much a problem as being addicted to killing to having no idea why it is wrong, which is what used to be Lon's issue.

Tom and Harry are lucky they didn't kill trillions ( and you don't know they didn't) in the Q and the Grey when they were all cock happy with those Rifles that were firing super nova after super nova at the Q while they were taking control of that conflict.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Too tired to switch horses this late in the night/early in the day.

I prefer the Suder/Iko analogy.

I see Suder Seven and too dissimiliar. Might as well compare Suder/Picard.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sorry.

This is why you always have to wear chaps if you need to rule the equestrian world.

They all did plenty that should have left them grumpy and melencholly which the reset button took care of.

B'Elanna almost blew up a planet with a Cardasian weapon after she missed the first world she shot at.

Um? Did Caretaker fuck that missile?

That spud was deranged.

 

[Cepstrum]

Well, Seven wasn't around to help fix Suder. And because it was only in season two, maybe Janeway was still suspicious of Maquis. She had been dealing with both Seska and the as-yet uncovered traitor Jonas.

Or Janeway just felt differently, and her word rules. She *was* highly inconsistent.


Though I stick by my original points.



Edit: wait, are we now talking about why Janeway accepted Seven from the start, despite her bad past, frequent disobedience, and such, as compared to Suder, the repentant sociopath? Is it now Seven vs Suder or Iko vs Suder? Or...?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Her relationship with a massmurderer like Seven flexed her compassion and belief in redemption.

Perhaps if not for Seven, Janeway would have ignored Iko's plea for clemency?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

JANEWAY: Commander Tuvok will help you make arrangements. (Tuvok and Yediq leave)
CHAKOTAY: Some of the crew may not be comfortable helping to deliver eight men to their deaths.
JANEWAY: I can't say I like it either but, we have a Prime Directive to follow.

Oh, the Compression phaser packing mama can be a bleeding heart when she wants to, and I doubt it has anything to do with Seven.

I did like this other exchange from "Repentence".

YEDIQ: You agreed to work within the confines of our legal system.
SEVEN: Your system is flawed.
JANEWAY: That's enough, Seven. I assure you, we'll abide by the family's decision. Now I need a moment alone with Seven, if you don't mind.

(Yediq leaves)

JANEWAY: We did everything we could to help him.
SEVEN: We have to do more.
JANEWAY: You barely know this man. Why are you so passionate about helping him? SEVEN: I want to give him the same opportunity you gave me. When you severed my link to the Collective, you changed who I was. You made it possible for me to reclaim my humanity. Because of my nanoprobes, Iko has undergone a similar change. He should be given the chance to atone for his crimes.
JANEWAY: Atonement. Is that what this is about?
SEVEN: Yes.
JANEWAY: For him, or for you?
SEVEN: I don't know what you mean.
JANEWAY: I think part of you still feels responsible for the violent acts you committed when you were a Borg.
SEVEN: You're mistaken.
JANEWAY: Am I? Maybe you believe if Iko is found not guilty, somehow you won't be guilty, either. You said it yourself. You've reclaimed your humanity. It's time you stopped blaming yourself for the crimes of the Collective.

 

[AuntKate]

As a drone, Seven did not have control of her actions, just as Picard had no control of his actions at Wolf 459. No one considered prosecuting Picard for his assistance in defeating the fleet, and no one would think of prosecuting Seven. Do they carry a burden of guilt? Of course. The assumption is that Ito and Suder had a choice--if not to kill, then to seek help.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Mmmmm? Sure they did . Infinite Regress even.

Besides. Starfleet didn't know that Picard begged to be Borg. It wasn't rape. The queen seduced him. If he'd just taken Lwaxanna or Bev off for a dirty weekend every now and then, then that bald bitch would never have been able to coerce his penis towards letting her take him as husband and slave.

Besides. That technology was dangerous. It was madness to let her like a plague victim to be allowed the opportunity to begin a new the Borg infection any time she lost control or some bastard stole/purchased/acquired a helping of her nanoprobes. They were perfectly happy to let Neelix live out his life in an iron lung and for the safety of the ship especially after they figured out that the Queen was able to initiate contact any time she wanted (locate Voyager any time she wanted) and that Seven was a fricking dupe enough to be convinced into doing the unthinkable because of threats and conversation from someone just a little smarter than she was, that it was the very definition of suicide not to have strained every nano ounce of Borg technology out of her until she was just rolling around in one of those wheelchairs Pike had. Good god, they were almost conjobbed by a couple Ferengi and an errant Barclay Hologram just because they thought that her technology wasn't protected to any salient degree and lets not forget after she made children with the Doctor becuase of a transporter accident that Seven shouldn't have been allowed to use the transporter ever again until you guessed it... They removed her tech.

She was a virulent infection that could barely help itself not to accidentally be a complete bastard, hells they are so lucky that things didn't spin completely out of control when they donkeyed around with her memory in The Killing Game or Workforce that her assimilation tubules could have sprung forth like tiny penises every time she got aroused and she borged her lovers during climax.. And I'm still not completely certain that nanoprobes are not an STD that Chuckles might have needed a teflon condom to proceed to be intimate with his girl.

What if they couldn't have cured Kim of the macrovirus completely? That if he didn't get a shot every day, those beasties would just start growing out of him and try to eat the crew?

Chakotay and Janeway got thrown off the ship because they had a disease which the Doctor couldn't fix when they could have just as easily been left in stasis for 50 years till they got back to earth or a month till they met the Vidiians like they actually did.

Why not Seven?

 

[AuntKate]

The most obvious answer is that they needed her curvaceous body to save the show from cancellation.

 

[exodus]

The Voyager Crew lobbied for Iko against the survivors of his victims. Suder wanted to grow flowers and food. Janeway shut him down.

So?
Iko was still in prison for the crime(s) he commited, just as Suder was confinded to quarters as punishment for his crime. Iko was declined release & Suder was declined privilages.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Iko hadn't been punished yet. He was going to be executed as punishment. Holding him before execution was really the opposite of what they were taking their sweet ass time to getting around to.

If Suder had survived Basics II?

Would they have locked him back up, or reward him with as much liberty as the rest of the crew for killing all those Kazon and saving the ship? Janeway lost the ship and he (mostly) gave it back, so it would have been a real dick move to think that he had not bought his freedom by doing the right thing for his crewmates and the mission.

But consider if this is so, it means that Janeway values some one who kills extensively on her terms for her cause more so that a troubled soul trying to right his moral compass and make a go of it as a farmer and feeding her crew who has to turbulently eat Neelix's cooking day after day.

 

[exodus]

Iko hadn't been punished yet. He was going to be executed as punishment.

Incarceration isn't punishment?
I thought punishment meant a burden that's meant to make you reflect back upon what you've done wrong?
Execution doesn't leave room for punishment.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well sentencing vs. punishment.

Was he to be incarcerated for X number of years and then executed, or was he being held while they were building a gallows so that he didn't run away? It's question of red tape.

You wouldn't need death row if you could trust criminals to show up for their own executions when they were arranged to happen... HEY!? That's an episode of TOS! ..AND TNG!

But holding prisoners till execution is just gravy because just because you're not ready to cut their head off with something sharp does it really mean they have to languish in a cell? Well actually it does, which is why they invented the system of Law they di in the 2000 AD Comics.

In that mind, Suder wasn't planning on being held for X number of years either, which cannot be at all legal. he was given life via the captains discretion and not a day in court.

 

[Destructor]

Uhm, not to derail the thread with something that may be a really uncomfortable topic, but if you follow this link:

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/d3n73/i_am_a_convicted_rapist_released_one_year_ago/

You'll be taken to a really scary, fascinating, disturbing Reddit thread in which a convicted rapist answers questions about his crimes in a very forthright, clinical manner.

There's a lot of links in there to 'Repentance'. He can't say why he did what he did. He said he has 'bad wiring in his brain'. Is that all we are? Wiring in our brains? Can we blame our bad actions on that wiring, or is there something inside of us that can be responsible? If there isn't, can we be help responsible?

I actually found Repentance very, well, the first time I saw it I had a less mature take on the universe and it kind of annoyed me. I basically believed very strongly in free will and that any evil actions you take are your responsibility and people who tried to blame 'brain chemistry' are just trying to get out of it. Now I know that brain chemistry really can effect your actions quite a bit, but I still believe everyone is responsible for their actions, but I think Repentance explores the fascinating space between our free will and our chemistry.

Does the guy in that Reddit thread deserve death? A lot of people in there seem to think so. I don't know what I think. He seems repentant. He seems like he wants to... make up for his crimes. But he never can.

This reminds me of Seven, but also of 'Angel', the character from Buffy. Angel can't ever make up for all the pain he has caused. He does deserve to die- and maybe the rapist in the reddit thread deserves to die, too. Yet by continuing to live he tries to make people's lives better- even if his continued existence increases the mental torment of his victims. Where's the balance? Maybe there isn't one.

It's all very interesting to think about, and there aren't any hard and fast answers, but I appreciate that Star Trek takes a look at these questions and gives us a space in which to discuss them.

I guess the caveat is that there's no such thing as 'being a Vampire' or 'being a borg'. We're never compelled by some alien force to do evil. But if our brains are broken and we do evil things... where does the evil come from? I don't know. It makes me sad.

 

[kimc]

^ The thing is the "hard-wired" theory doesn't take into account that the brain is not a constant. As we learn, as we experience things our brains are constantly changing. People with brain injuries have been able to retrain their brains to overcome damage. We all have free will but the key word is will.