Medical Careers in Starfleet

[Tim Thomason]

Wesley had rank, I assume equivalent to any other Ensign (albeit with 0 seniority), and was given responsibility over a survey team comprising of more senior Ensigns and a Crewman, but he wasn't in line to the Captain's chair, like Riker, Data, Yar, Worf, La Forge (in the first season), Troi (in the last season), and a couple others.

 

[SpyOne]

Slightly different things, there. She was shown taking charge of a watch, which in naval services is a job that can be done by fairly junior officers once they have qualified. Whether she was in the chain of command is another question, that is, if multiple officers were killed or unable to perform their duty, would the ship's counselor take command at some point among the other commanders? Or would it pass her by and go to a lieutenant commander with more command training? It seems to be the latter, since Data is apparently still second officer, or third in command.

We do actually see command devolve to Troi, though.
In the episode "Disaster", the only people alive and conscious on the bridge were O'Brien, Ro, and Troi. Ro tries to take charge and O'Brien points out that "Lieutenant Commander Troi is in command".

I would think that specific orders trump seniority . So the fact that Data is Second Officer puts him right after Riker even if there are other Commanders or more senior LtCmdrs present. Similarly, Geordi is in charge of Engineering even if there are more senior officers under him because he's Chief Engineer. But if he were killed or incapacitated, his role would pass to the most senior officer present unless someone were already designated as his second.
Abd similarly Wesley was in command of a team of officers who were senior to him because Picard (or Riker?) was senior to all of them and put Wesley in charge.

In the event of a major disaster that incapacitated most of the command crew, ... I'd guess that an "acting Ensign" ranks below all other officers, but might be above the Enlisted.
Or he might have no actual rank in such a situation, so like Cadet Nog, "If you are in command there would be nobody left to call you 'Captain".

I suspect that in Starfleet medical personnel are outside the normal devolution of Command. There are a number of good reasons for this.
I have mentioned before that the Chief Medical Officer has the authority to relieve the Captain of duty, and for that reason should be outside the line of succession. Similarly the head of Security should be outside that line, since .... if Riker decides Picard has become unfit and Picard decides Riker has become mutinous, it falls to Worf to decide who to arrest and neither decision should result in a promotion.

There is some evidence that shirt color plays a role in the succession. That is, it may matter less who has been a Lieutenant longer than which of them had a red shirt.

 

[The Wormhole]

Similarly the head of Security should be outside that line,

Tuvok is next in line for command of Voyager after Chakotay.

 

[SpyOne]

Voyager was in a weird place for a number of reasons.
I mean, on the Enterprise Tactical (and Security) were under OPs. If Voyager were following that model, Harry Kim would be Tuvok's boss, but instead it was the other way around.

So Tuvok basically held Data's job, but due to his field of expertise (and those of the people under him), preferred to man the Tactical station and let a subordinate handle OPS.

Or something.

 

[Timo]

Janeway's ship had plenty of excuses for weird. Basically everybody but Tuvok was standing in: many department heads were Maquis, including the XO, and Ops was being led by its most junior officer and apparent sole survivor. In the latter case, Janeway might have appointed another Maquis - Ayala was deemed worth two pips - but probably felt a line had to be drawn somewhere.

As for "Disaster", Troi was but a pawn in the power struggle between O'Brien and Ro. Some accuse her of ignorance, but her asking "What specifically will follow from this course of action?" and being told "We blow up, doh!" is IMHO a case of insubordination more than anything else. In this environment, the actual facts of chain of command etc. get blurred beyond recognition.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

A crewman put it command temporarily, by their captain (the person who has the right to pass the baton to them) have as much right to stay in command for longer than originally planned (although they could and often would defer to someone better qualified) as the gardener has to inherit a wealthy man's entire fortune, if, while, mentally competent, he wrote a legal will which favored the gardener over his son, daughter, and second wife.

 

[MAGolding]

Wesley had rank, I assume equivalent to any other Ensign (albeit with 0 seniority), and was given responsibility over a survey team comprising of more senior Ensigns and a Crewman, but he wasn't in line to the Captain's chair, like Riker, Data, Yar, Worf, La Forge (in the first season), Troi (in the last season), and a couple others.

If Wesley has any ability to command, and he does, then he is in line to command the ship, but he is way down on the list so it would be extremely unlikely for him to become the senior officer available for command. You have to remember that the Enterprise D usually has a thousand people aboard and tens of line officers. Any one of those tens of line officers can become the senior officer present and in command, but only a few of them ever did on the show. The officers who could potentially command the Enterprise if enough senior officers became unavailable were not restricted to the few officers that were seen in charge of it in various episodes, but included every line officer on the ship.

At any one moment after becoming an acting ensign Wesly propably could have told you the number of officers ahead of him in line to command the ship, whether it was 47, or 75, or 63, or whatever, and if he didn't know it would have been easy to ask the computer for the number or for the list. As far as I remember the only Enterprise officers actually seen commanding the ship were Picard, Riker, Data, Crusher, Troi, La Forge, and Worf. But all the other line officers should have known their number on the list, or could have got the answer from the computer in a second if there was a question.

And I remind everyone that the USA has had officers in its armed services Wesley's age and younger.

 

[Abi Smith]

Was Bashir taught temporal mechanics at med school? He seemed annoyed at O'Brien's ignorance of the subject. Does one need to know about causality paradoxes in order to perform a tracheotomy? I don't think I want my doctor to be so distracted.

 

[SpyOne]

Well, not all of his education was Medical School.
If we extrapolate again from how 24th century education seems very like 20th/21st century education, then all MDs hold an undergraduate degree, but not in something like "medicine".
The entry requirments gor Medical School are a few Science classes and calculus. Most people who plan to go to medical school therefore major in something that gives credit for the same courses, like Physics or Chemistry.
But some just take an extra semester or two to get their science classes while majoring in Literature or something.
And some major in something like Public Health.

So apparently Julian Basir is one of those people who says, "since I need to take two semesters of organic chemistry (with a lab), and two semesters of inorganic chemistry (with a lab), and two semesters of physics (with a lab), and calculus, and writing, .... I'm like halfway to a BA in Applied Physics already.
And he's rather surprised at how big the gulf is between "I took Temporal Mechanics 101 and remember most of it" and "they spent one day on that during training, which was over twenty years ago and I wasn't paying attention."

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Well, not all of his education was Medical School.
If we extrapolate again from how 24th century education seems very like 20th/21st century education, then all MDs hold an undergraduate degree, but not in something like "medicine".

I would like to point out that this not the case for medical degrees in the UK (where Bashir apparently grew up), where they are in undergraduate degree (though roughly analogus a Masters in length) that you enter straight from "high school", which is also broadly speaking the standard outside of the US.

According to my information, a full qualified doctor in the US would be at least 29-30 (two four-years degrees plus residency), whereas a UK doctor (broadly the international standard) could be as young as 25 if they delayed advanced training after their foundation ("residency") years.

Given that Bashir was only 27 and seemed to have already done some research work before arriving on DS9, I think it's plausible, though not essential that the SMA follows the UK/International model rather than the US one.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Was Bashir taught temporal mechanics at med school? He seemed annoyed at O'Brien's ignorance of the subject.

He's a genius, he can afford to take other things he's interested in aside from medicine.

It's not the annoyance of someone who thinks everybody ought to know about this by now at the same level he does. Rather, it's Bashir wishing that the person he's discussing it with knew as much about the subject as he does. For smart people, having to stop and explain it in simpler terms for their less-informed friends is annoying - it interrupts the flow of their thoughts. It's kind of like watching a movie/TV show and having to stop/pause every few seconds to explain what's happening to someone who's never watched it before.

 

[J.T.B.]

We do actually see command devolve to Troi, though.
In the episode "Disaster", the only people alive and conscious on the bridge were O'Brien, Ro, and Troi. Ro tries to take charge and O'Brien points out that "Lieutenant Commander Troi is in command".

Yeah, I thought that was problematic. Obviously, setting up more dramatic situations for main cast members is the driving factor.

I would think that specific orders trump seniority . So the fact that Data is Second Officer puts him right after Riker even if there are other Commanders or more senior LtCmdrs present. Similarly, Geordi is in charge of Engineering even if there are more senior officers under him because he's Chief Engineer. But if he were killed or incapacitated, his role would pass to the most senior officer present unless someone were already designated as his second.

But second officer is not a specific job, is it? I thought Data's position was operations officer, and second officer was just his place in the chain of command.

But yes, that's possible. The problem, historically, has been that subordinates are bound to follow orders of their superiors, so placing a junior in a position where the situation is reversed is, obviously, not ideal and avoided as much as possible. Such a situation existed in the British Royal Navy in the 1800s, when there was a class of navigating officers/masters who were "military" in that they could give orders to control the ship -- unlike surgeons, paymasters or engineers -- but only succeeded to command after the most junior lieutenant. So you might very well have had a master with 20 years experience and ranking with a major in the army being officially subordinate to someone whose seniority as a lieutenant was counted in days. Obviously, this created a lot of conflicts, bad feelings and inefficiency, and the separate class had to be eliminated.

What you want, ideally, is a pyramid of leadership levels in your ship/unit that roughly matches the ranks, for instance:

CO: Capt
XO: senior Cdr
Department head: junior Cdr or senior LCdr
Assistant department head: junior LCdr or Lt
Everybody else: Lt, JG or Ens.

Which would work perfectly fine for what we've seen in Trek. Except for setting up certain storytelling situations, I guess.

Abd similarly Wesley was in command of a team of officers who were senior to him because Picard (or Riker?) was senior to all of them and put Wesley in charge.

Yeah, that was absurd.

A crewman put it command temporarily, by their captain (the person who has the right to pass the baton to them) have as much right to stay in command for longer than originally planned (although they could and often would defer to someone better qualified) as the gardener has to inherit a wealthy man's entire fortune, if, while, mentally competent, he wrote a legal will which favored the gardener over his son, daughter, and second wife.

That's fine for a private estate, but for public offices (including military leadership) people seem to prefer succession to be governed by laws and regulations. The idea that a captain has the right to "pass the baton" to anyone just on personal preference, potentially bypassing people put in their positions by the captain's superiors, doesn't sound very likely.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Well, it depends on the situation at hand. If it's a first contact mission, perhaps command reverts to whichever officer of the line may have more experience with diplomacy, for instance. Would it be more appropriate to have that expert be standing off to the side ready to advise the temporary boss, who ultimately makes the final decision, or have that expert be the boss? Depends, I suppose, on the circumstances.

 

[SpyOne]

Would it be more appropriate to have that expert be standing off to the side ready to advise the temporary boss, who ultimately makes the final decision, or have that expert be the boss? Depends, I suppose, on the circumstances.

While a wise boss will seek advice from a subordinate with more experience or knowledge of the subject at hand, who is in command should be clear and therefore shouldn't be situational.

There is some precedent for doing it the other way. US Army Special Forces teams, recognizing that the job they do is very different from what the rest of the army does, has decided to handle some situations differently from the way the army does. Reportedly rank is much less important within those teams and it is commonplace for a commander to hand over command to a team member who is more expert with the situation at hand, even to the point of letting that person give them orders.
But officially the situation is really "we are all going to do what Jim says, even me, because I said so." And if it all goes wrong, the responsibility lies with the commander who agreed to the expert's plan.

 

[Levi]

It is not uncommon practice to put Junior Officers in command of tasks or missions where they are in charge of officers of a higher rank then they are. This allows junior officers the opportunity to gain experience under controlled conditions. As well, the senior officers are able to give advice, mentor and tutor the officers as they progress. And of course, a senior officer could step in in-case the junior officer is about to make a mistake in some way.
All Officers should understand and acknowledge the time and effort it takes to train new officers. And I don't think an officer is going to complain about having to take orders from a more junior officer when it comes to these some tasks or missions. Then, everyone should feel confident that even the junior officers will be able to preform during emergency situations.

 

[The Wormhole]

All Officers should understand and acknowledge the time and effort it takes to train new officers. And I don't think an officer is going to complain about having to take orders from a more junior officer when it comes to these some tasks or missions. Then, everyone should feel confident that even the junior officers will be able to preform during emergency situations.

Lt. Commander Logan complained in just such circumstances.

 

[Levi]

I believe Logan was a Lieutenant, not a Lieutenant Commander. Also, that situation would not be considered a controlled situation. If you read my post, I stated that junior ranks may be put in command of tasks or missions. Not Emergency situations.

All Officers should understand and acknowledge the time and effort it takes to train new officers.

There are always going to be people who are going to complain and not understand how things work. If you also noticed, I do not recall Lt. Logan being on the Enterprise for long. Captain Picard placed LaForge in Command, it was not the Chief Engineers job to question that. Perhaps if LaForge has just assumed command for other reasons, but this was not the case. It is most likely that Lt.Logan would have received some form of a notation of this event on his record, which would affect later promotion. There are many cases of Officers acting poorly in manners like that all through history. It happens. The same as someone would experience fear on the battlefield. These types of Officers usually do not make it far up the chain of command. But even then some will. Not everyone is going to be the perfect officer.
So yes, Lieutenant Logan complained in just such circumstances. And many others have done just the same. And many more will do the same. But we don't hear about these people other then when they try to make a stink about their rank and experience. However, if they had the right experience, they should know better.

 

[J.T.B.]

It is not uncommon practice to put Junior Officers in command of tasks or missions where they are in charge of officers of a higher rank then they are.

I would be interested to hear the details on that.

 

[Levi]

I would be interested to hear the details on that.

Just like Wesley's assignment that was previously mentioned. I am not talking about an Ensign being put in Command of a Starship with a Captain as a First Officer. But smaller scientific study or research groups, it can happen. Junior officers need to step up to the plate at some point. And when you are at the bottom, you will likely have a few higher ranks that you are in charge of. An Ensign can be put in charge of say a research group, as their first attempt at leading. Their team could be made of other Ensigns and perhaps a few Lieutenant Junior Grades. There could even be a full Lieutenant in there as well who would be able to mentor or guide the Ensign through their first attempt.
Still, it's only a leadership position over tasks.
There are also times when specialists are assigned to missions. A Mission Specialist may be assigned to work with a Starship. If the Specialist is only a Lieutenant, that Lt. may have special permission to lead or guide the Starship during parts of the mission. This doesn't mean the Lt. has overall command over the Captain or the ship, but for certain or specific tasks, they have some authority. The Captain can still take back total control at any moment they wish, and may even still be giving the commands. But that Specialist is still telling the Captain where to go for missions sake.
You can also have a Junior Officer who is Acting-Captain during a night watch. During that shift, a higher ranking Conn Officer could be on duty as well. The Conn Officer isn't there to test the Junior Officer, they are there to do their own job. And it was probably planned by the Staff so that a Junior Officer could be on duty in that position and still have a senior more experienced officer with them to offer help if needed.
There are other situations where a more junior rank can lead a more senior rank to theirs, as many Starfleet Officer Careers are not based around attaining rank or position outside of their field of study. Say, a Doctor or Councillor, or most people who enter in to a Scientific path. Due to their time in service, they may hold a higher rank, but posses no real leadership training and probably prefer to simply work, in which case they probably have no objection to an Officer that's a rank below them to be giving them orders. Again, the Junior Officers still need to recognize the experience a Senior Officer has, and listen to them when they try to tell you something.
The more senior officers are not always there to pull rank. Starfleet isn't the Marine Corps, and rank is not always the compete judge of authority. Rank to Experience, most likely yes. But most times everyone is there to just work. Being in charge of others for these types of situations is not the same as a Department Head or even the Captain, they are simply the leader for that task or mission who reports and relays information between Staff and the team. Its also a time for Staff to evaluate Junior Officers for future promotion. A Junior Officer being put in to a position like this wouldn't just be a fresh new officer, but probably would be close to promotion and needing to prove themselves in leadership roles.

 

[fireproof78]

Just like Wesley's assignment that was previously mentioned. I am not talking about an Ensign being put in Command of a Starship with a Captain as a First Officer. But smaller scientific study or research groups, it can happen. Junior officers need to step up to the plate at some point. And when you are at the bottom, you will likely have a few higher ranks that you are in charge of. An Ensign can be put in charge of say a research group, as their first attempt at leading. Their team could be made of other Ensigns and perhaps a few Lieutenant Junior Grades. There could even be a full Lieutenant in there as well who would be able to mentor or guide the Ensign through their first attempt.
Still, it's only a leadership position over tasks.
There are also times when specialists are assigned to missions. A Mission Specialist may be assigned to work with a Starship. If the Specialist is only a Lieutenant, that Lt. may have special permission to lead or guide the Starship during parts of the mission. This doesn't mean the Lt. has overall command over the Captain or the ship, but for certain or specific tasks, they have some authority. The Captain can still take back total control at any moment they wish, and may even still be giving the commands. But that Specialist is still telling the Captain where to go for missions sake.
You can also have a Junior Officer who is Acting-Captain during a night watch. During that shift, a higher ranking Conn Officer could be on duty as well. The Conn Officer isn't there to test the Junior Officer, they are there to do their own job. And it was probably planned by the Staff so that a Junior Officer could be on duty in that position and still have a senior more experienced officer with them to offer help if needed.
There are other situations where a more junior rank can lead a more senior rank to theirs, as many Starfleet Officer Careers are not based around attaining rank or position outside of their field of study. Say, a Doctor or Councillor, or most people who enter in to a Scientific path. Due to their time in service, they may hold a higher rank, but posses no real leadership training and probably prefer to simply work, in which case they probably have no objection to an Officer that's a rank below them to be giving them orders. Again, the Junior Officers still need to recognize the experience a Senior Officer has, and listen to them when they try to tell you something.
The more senior officers are not always there to pull rank. Starfleet isn't the Marine Corps, and rank is not always the compete judge of authority. Rank to Experience, most likely yes. But most times everyone is there to just work. Being in charge of others for these types of situations is not the same as a Department Head or even the Captain, they are simply the leader for that task or mission who reports and relays information between Staff and the team. Its also a time for Staff to evaluate Junior Officers for future promotion. A Junior Officer being put in to a position like this wouldn't just be a fresh new officer, but probably would be close to promotion and needing to prove themselves in leadership roles.

After reading all that, which I really like, what would be your assessment of "Disaster" where Troi is most senior officer on the Bridge, but is in the Science department, while Ro is an ensign, but on the command track? They defer to Troi as senior officer despite not having command experience, if I recall correctly.