Measure of a Man

[bryce]

It's in my Top Ten list of "All Time Greatest Trek Episodes" as well...top 5 even...MofaM encapsulates the ideals that Trek represents...it's core ethics and values...

And Trek is NOT just about epic space wars - it's about exploring the human condition...it's about deep philosophical and moral concepts...it's an intellectual tv show, not just "Wagon Train to the Stars"...

I think later Trek creators have, sadly, forgotten that.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

I think people who object to the argument, often posited in ST, that androids or holograms are sentient are missing the point.

For the record, I think as we explore sentience, we will indeed have a more expansive view of what that means in the future. So I can believe that an android, given the right circumstances, could indeed be a sentient being.

Now, the thing is androids and holograms are stand-ins for whatever minority is threatened in our society. That's because there are too many people who think gays don't deserve certain rights. Or still believe members of certain ethnic groups aren't "the same" as everyone else, and therefore, not deserving of the same rights under the law.

The ep is an allegory on racial discrimination. It really isn't meant to be interpreted literally. And it is one of my fave Data eps.

Red Ranger

Its one of T.N.G.'s 10 best
People tend to forget that its an allegory on racist views.
What first jumped out at me is an allegory on slavery, but I see the larger racial discrimination aspect now that you pointed it out Red Ranger.

 

[Yassim]

Great episode. I actually think these talky episodes, in which Picard prevails with a rousing speech on a moral or intellectual point, are usually TNG's most effective.

Stewart can do these in his sleep, and it's great to give him something meaty as opposed to the more sci-fi/action oriented episodes...

He does a great bit of acting when he starts his summation - he fumbles and mumbles and isn't convincing at all, and leads the scene into this emotional place where it feels like Picard is losing, like he can't pull this together after Riker's big finish. And then he warms up... and ends with the Eye of the Tiger and "There it sits!" Stewart is awesome.

 

[Tomalak]

Stewart can do these in his sleep

Which suddenly turned him into a "great actor." The funny thing is, when ever he had to actually act, he sucked.

I don't agree with that. He was a fine actor before Hollywood had even heard of him. Got any examples, because I honestly can't see where you're coming from.

 

[LadyPenelope]

I think one of the purposes of true "science fiction" is to examine the human condition from an outside perspective, and to discuss what it means to be human. This episode has that in spades. I put it in the top ten Trek episodes of all time.

I still get chills when Picard says, "Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well there it sits. Waiting."

Totally agree, this is one of my favourite epidsodes because it's about so much more than just space battles and aliens (which are good too, but not as meaningful)

 

[Hawkeye_90]

It was put in the top ten greatest star trek episides list I just saw, it may have even been in the top 5. I would like to point out that this is a season 2 episode. Now I haven't seen every episode, but it seems that a lot of people don't care for season 2, and it doesn't make sense because this episode along with a few others is so epic that it is one of the best in the series.

 

[Seven of Five]

'Measure of a Man' is a brilliant episode; definately in my TNG Top 10. As people are already saying, Picard's speeches in favour of Data were riviting, and of course poor 'toaster' Data is just a stand in for slavery, or racism. The court room setting may now seem a little obvious, but it was still excellent.

I also love 'The Offspring.' It wasn't a classic like 'Measure' was, but the reocurring theme of android sentience really had more of an emotional kick. Lal malfunctioning made me cry, especially if the episode is watched after 'Measure.'

 

[zephramc]

Stewart can do these in his sleep

Which suddenly turned him into a "great actor." The funny thing is, when ever he had to actually act, he sucked.

I don't agree with that. He was a fine actor before Hollywood had even heard of him. Got any examples, because I honestly can't see where you're coming from.

I'm not sure why Clegg feels that Stewart sucked. He was a stage actor way before he appeared on film, so I'd assume you'd need good acting chops for that. The only shows prior to TNG that I remember Stewart from were the movies Dune and Excalibur. They weren't big parts as I recall, but Stewart did fine and was his usual classy self.

 

[Yanks]

All gushing aside, and not dinging anyones performance, but this episode is highly overrated.

Good drama and great acting does not an epic episode make.

 

[TheSeeker]

Holy zombie thread Batman!

 

[Use of Time]

A five year old discussion wasn't complete unless you weighed in to say that it was overrated?

 

[Hober Mallow]

This thread is undead. But since it's back...

For me, the episode represents TNG at its finest. The only thing I can't stand about it is when a supposedly experienced Starfleet judge pathetically whines, "I've got to make a ruling!" Minor nitpick, though, of an outstanding episode from start to finish.

 

[Yanks]

Holy zombie thread Batman!

A five year old discussion wasn't complete unless you weighed in to say that it was overrated?

Just testing the waters to see if anyone wanted to talk about the episode.

So I did a search and posted a comment in the applicable thread rather than start another one.

I thought that's what was supposed to be done.

 

[PaleMoonlight]

This episode rules, possibly the best "courtroom drama" ep along with The Drumhead.

 

[Yanks]

This episode rules, possibly the best "courtroom drama" ep along with The Drumhead.

Drumhead is lightyears ahead of Measure of a Man IMO.

PICARD: You know, there some words I've known since I was a school boy. With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today

PICARD: Maybe. But she, or someone like her, will always be with us, waiting for the right climate in which to flourish, spreading fear in the name of righteousness. Vigilance, Mister Worf, that is the price we have to continually pay.

Trek is at it's finest when it is relevant in today's climate.

This is especially true nowadays with the flash in the pan media and social networking.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Trek is at it's finest when it is relevant in today's climate.

But political climates change. "Measure of a Man" has to do with universals. What does it mean to have consciousness? Can anyone prove they're conscious?

 

[R. Star]

You revived a four year old threat to say that?

 

[Melakon]

Just testing the waters to see if anyone wanted to talk about the episode.

So I did a search and posted a comment in the applicable thread rather than start another one.

I thought that's what was supposed to be done.

I think staff around here generally prefers that you start a new thread, if the previous one is more than 6 months old. I often try to see what shows up in the subforum's list of topics (which I think are set by default to the last 30 days), and if nothing shows up, I'll start a new one. Some of the subforums have light traffic, so I'll look back a little further then.

They won't put you in the brig unless you make a habit of necromancy I think.

 

[jimbotron]

Just testing the waters to see if anyone wanted to talk about the episode.

So I did a search and posted a comment in the applicable thread rather than start another one.

I thought that's what was supposed to be done.

Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to bump the "episode of the week" thread? That one is only a few months old.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=207220

 

[Yanks]

Trek is at it's finest when it is relevant in today's climate.

But political climates change. "Measure of a Man" has to do with universals. What does it mean to have consciousness? Can anyone prove they're conscious?

All very interesting questions posed by this episode.

"sentient" is applicable too.

None of which needed to be determined by this trial however, as Star Fleet already accepted Data's application to SFA and commissioned him as an Officer.

Do all Officer's have to submit to medical research?

I think Data's rights as a commissioned officer should have nulled any need for this trial.