Maybe Picard's attitude was right

[Nyotarules]

nstead from FC says it was mainly because the Vulcans discovered them and landed on the planet. It was just after WW3, but people seemed to be living reasonably well in communes and even experimenting with rocket ships and talking about making money and "retiring" on a luxury island or something?

To be fair to FC, even during both real World Wars someone, somewhere was making money, and still living a fairly decent life, so having Cochran not being a paragon of virtue and being materialistic made the film realistic. (Consider WW2 left the USA an economic superpower, war is good for business for someone). Even if humanity almost wiped themselves out in WW3, according to Riker 600 million died, that is still less than 10 per cent of the population. That leaves more than 90% to keep things going, not exactly a wipeout. (If they ever reboot TNG FC they should change the number to 6 billion dead!)
Also knowing humans it would take more than another World War for humanity to get its shit together. Knowing there are alien, galactic powers out there that would not care less about the isms (race, sex, religion, class, etc) we have with each other and would blow each and every one to kingdom come given a chance, would be more of a wake up call. Humanity would learn to hang together or hang separately, its a good thing in the Star Trek universe the Vulcans were benevolent.

 

[Commishsleer]

True, with it being a network product of the 80' and 90's, but I think some fans have wondered, wondered, 'why couldn't she be honest and just admit she was only attracted to males?'

Instead she told him she couldn't keep up with the constant changes, which seemed a little dishonest since at first, she smiled and seemed eager to meet the new Odan, when she thought it was going to be male.

When she saw it was going to be a female, you can see the obvious disappointment in her face. And then the breakup speech.

It had the effect (for some people) of making Beverly look unintentionally homophobic. Ironically because she wasn't honest enough to admit she wasn't attracted to female that way.

She couldn't actually admit that either though, because it would ruin the perception of 24th century people evolving out of those types of behaviors.

Especially when TNG had claimed in earlier seasons about how judging by appearance was the last of the human prejudices.

Honestly I think its OK for Beverley not to be attracted to women. If my husband transgendered into a woman I probably wouldn't want to be with him. I think thats OK. So maybe you're right and Beverley should have said she was straight
I get the gist that people were thinking that Star Trek was against gay relationships because Beverley rejected her but Odan seemed to be cool with being with a woman and Star Trek did not portray it as odd or disgusting.
Personally I think the Trill are odd and disgusting but thats just me (and not to be admired).

The last one died five months ago.

OK OK I get it but while technically someone born in the 19th century from 1899 would still be alive in people's current lifetimes but that isn't really an equivalent.
Captain Christopher's equivalent would be someone who was about 30 in 1760 so born about 1730.
The 20th century group would be equivalent to someone born in 1680 assuming TNG to be 100 years after TOS.
And also its different speaking to someone plucked out out 1760 and have their historical experience not be tainted by the next 50 years of history.
So if you were interviewing someone born in 1899 in 1960 they would barely remember when women didn't have the vote, when there weren't cars, when coloured people weren't allowed in the same bathrooms as white people.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Honestly I think its OK for Beverley not to be attracted to women. If my husband transgendered into a woman I probably wouldn't want to be with him. I think thats OK. So maybe you're right and Beverley should have said she was straight
I get the gist that people were thinking that Star Trek was against gay relationships because Beverley rejected her but Odan seemed to be cool with being with a woman and Star Trek did not portray it as odd or disgusting.
Personally I think the Trill are odd and disgusting but thats just me (and not to be admired).


OK OK I get it but while technically someone born in the 19th century from 1899 would still be alive in people's current lifetimes but that isn't really an equivalent.
Captain Christopher's equivalent would be someone who was about 30 in 1760 so born about 1730.
The 20th century group would be equivalent to someone born in 1680 assuming TNG to be 100 years after TOS.
And also its different speaking to someone plucked out out 1760 and have their historical experience not be tainted by the next 50 years of history.
So if you were interviewing someone born in 1899 in 1960 they would barely remember when women didn't have the vote, when there weren't cars, when coloured people weren't allowed in the same bathrooms as white people.

Um, no, they would remember those things pretty well. Women didn't get the right to vote in the us until 1920, cars were pretty rare in most places until the 1910s and segregation lasted into the 1960s.

 

[Commishsleer]

Picard probably would have referred to Captain Christopher's flight suit as a "costume."
...

It would be hard to describe Picard as tolerant of the rescued survivors.
Picard: "Well, they're alive now. We're going to have to treat them as living human beings.

Obviously lesser human beings.

Um, no, they would remember those things pretty well. Women didn't get the right to vote in the us until 1920, cars were pretty rare in most places until the 1910s and segregation lasted into the 1960s.

Women got to vote here in Australia in 1902.
And I'm pretty sure people around here conveniently don't remember how racist laws were in place in Australia towards indigenous people until the 1960s.
Its difficult to explain my point perhaps. Say for example, the internet has been created in my lifetime but I barely remember what it was like to live before the internet. That you actually had to visit libraries, phone people, etc. Thats because I've had 20 years of life where information is just a keyboard away.

Anyway I'm sure there's no-one around from 1760 or 1680 in our lifetimes. And historians might like to speak to people from this era. Not Picard or Riker of course. They have important things to do.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Obviously lesser human beings.


Women got to vote here in Australia in 1902.

In Belgium it was the 1940s. Other countries didn't get around to it until the last few decades, even. Overall it's probably not the best example to use for this sort of discussion.

And I'm pretty sure people around here conveniently don't remember how racist laws were in place in Australia towards indigenous people until the 1960s.

Well, I mean, there is an obvious difference between 'conveniently doesn't remember' and 'actually doesn't remember'.

Its difficult to explain my point perhaps. Say for example, the internet has been created in my lifetime but I barely remember what it was like to live before the internet. That you actually had to visit libraries, phone people, etc. Thats because I've had 20 years of life where information is just a keyboard away.

I don't think you're entirely unique in that regard, but I'd be cautious of using that experience as any sort of universal baseline. I was born in 85 and while I don't remember various things which often get labeled as the 'classic pre-internet' childhood experience, I do remember life before the internet just fine, despite the 20 years of internet service.

Anyway I'm sure there's no-one around from 1760 or 1680 in our lifetimes. And historians might like to speak to people from this era. Not Picard or Riker of course. They have important things to do.

The thing is, they do have important things to do. The ship is under serious threat. You think even a historian would choose to sit down for an extensive chat with someone from 1680 when their current location is on a sinking ship? You get off the ship first, then worry about the rest later.

Now, Riker's brush-off is dumb because he was literally placed in charge of these people and since they don't really understand what's happening, they can't be expected to just sit there and wait for someone to deign to notice them. Which is, of course, exactly how Offenhouse winds up becoming a distraction for the captain in the first place - which is exactly what Riker was ordered to prevent. It's very poor job performance, plain and simple. Now, Riker clearly felt the task was beneath him and he was needed on the bridge alongside the captain, but since he was ordered to carry it out the only acceptable alternatives were to a) actually take charge of them as ordered or b) pass the buck to a lower officer who isn't needed and therefore ensure that they are being taken care of. Certainly not to half-answer a handful of questions, tell them to get some rest and then disappear.

But while Riker did his job poorly, the reasons for Picard and Riker's lack of interest in these people are perfectly logical. They literally have more important things to worry about.

 

[The Old Mixer]

OK OK I get it but while technically someone born in the 19th century from 1899 would still be alive in people's current lifetimes but that isn't really an equivalent.
Captain Christopher's equivalent would be someone who was about 30 in 1760 so born about 1730.
The 20th century group would be equivalent to someone born in 1680 assuming TNG to be 100 years after TOS.

Numbers like that make your point a lot better. I was merely pointing out that "from the 19th century" isn't really that exotically old by modern standards.

The time difference between Picard and the people in "The Neutral Zone" would be the equivalent of us discovering people from around 1650...mid-17th century. So...early European colonization of North America and Bach hasn't been born yet.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Honestly I think its OK for Beverley not to be attracted to women. If my husband transgendered into a woman I probably wouldn't want to be with him. I think thats OK. So maybe you're right and Beverley should have said she was straight
I get the gist that people were thinking that Star Trek was against gay relationships because Beverley rejected her but Odan seemed to be cool with being with a woman and Star Trek did not portray it as odd or disgusting.
Personally I think the Trill are odd and disgusting but thats just me (and not to be admired).

True, it's definitely OK. I think I've been a little hard on Beverly, considering she had to deal 3 different people, and two of them without warning.

What stands out is her reaction to Odan, and maybe not being honest about why she rejected him .She definitely was expecting a male, because when Worf announced the new host had arrived, she said "send him in". And she was smiling. As soon as she saw the female Odan, the smile dropped, and she appeared somewhat cold, afterwards.


I think Odan could get away with it, because she was an alien that no one would ever see again. The funny thing is the episode didn't cause much controversy, because the scene escaped everyone's notice. Her being disappointed and rejecting the new Odan because she was now female was considered a normal reaction. It's when you re-watch it that you notice.

The style of the show kind of painted Crusher into a weird a little box. They can't have her reject Odan and actually saying 'I only like males' because a 24th century Enterprise crew member could never been seen saying that. And some fans would have seen that as Trek being homophobic.

But they won't show her accepting Odan either because it would probably have upset enough viewers and network execs worried about the ratings.

To be fair to FC, even during both real World Wars someone, somewhere was making money, and still living a fairly decent life, so having Cochran not being a paragon of virtue and being materialistic made the film realistic. (Consider WW2 left the USA an economic superpower, war is good for business for someone). Even if humanity almost wiped themselves out in WW3, according to Riker 600 million died, that is still less than 10 per cent of the population. That leaves more than 90% to keep things going, not exactly a wipeout. (If they ever reboot TNG FC they should change the number to 6 billion dead!)
Also knowing humans it would take more than another World War for humanity to get its shit together. Knowing there are alien, galactic powers out there that would not care less about the isms (race, sex, religion, class, etc) we have with each other and would blow each and every one to kingdom come given a chance, would be more of a wake up call. Humanity would learn to hang together or hang separately, its a good thing in the Star Trek universe the Vulcans were benevolent.

​

Some people have suggested that all the hoopla about humans evolving to where they were was a myth. The idea you get before FC is that humans were left in a bad situation that they had to learn themselves through logic, compassion hard work, ect, how to get out of, and eventually by the time they made it out to space and met aliens, they solved a lot of their 'isms'.

Now the idea is that the main reason, (if not the only one), is because they accidently met the Vulcans while experimenting with a ship, and the Vulcans took pity on us.

 

[Nyotarules]

The style of the show kind of painted Crusher into a weird a little box. They can't have her reject Odan and actually saying 'I only like males' because a 24th century Enterprise crew member could never been seen saying that. And some fans would have seen that as Trek being homophobic.

If DISC had a similar plot with Stamet meeting a male Trill who becomes his new lover, said symbiont dies and new female host shows up there would be uproar if Stamet, who as far as I know is gay and not bisexual, accepted his new lover's host, despite being female. For fans to be upset at Crusher for being a heterosexual female is ridiculous. A 24th century human should be entitled to say I only like...males, females, hortas or Tribbles, the whole idea is one can choose whichever sentient beings one wants as a lover of whatever gendar.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The style of the show kind of painted Crusher into a weird a little box. They can't have her reject Odan and actually saying 'I only like males' because a 24th century Enterprise crew member could never been seen saying that. And some fans would have seen that as Trek being homophobic

OK, maybe Beverly doesn’t like girls. So what? She doesn’t have to. It doesn’t make her homophobic.

Nobody has to like everyone. Humans will always have preferences. Humanity as a whole may well evolve to a point where sexual orientation is a non-issue, but the fact remains, everyone will still have their own personal preferences, as is their right.

As @Nyotarules points out, is Stamets bigoted because he doesn’t like women? No? Then why accuse Beverly of the same thing?

In fact, Beverly was being as nice to (Kareel) Odan as she could be. True, it would have been rather insensitive for Bev to just blurt out that she’s not into women - Kareel would understandably be hurt and upset if that had happened. So Bev tries to put things as nicely as she can. She’s trying to let Kareel down easy. You can’t fault her for that.

And as Bev also points out, how can anyone be expected to keep up when their partner could change body (and even gender) at any time?

 

[Commishsleer]

And as Bev also points out, how can anyone be expected to keep up when their partner could change body (and even gender) at any time?

Also doesn't the new body have some influence on the tastes of the combined being. Isn't it supposed to be a 50/50 arrangement. Although it seems more like a 95% symbiot controlling the body when you look at DS9.
Wouldn't both beings have to agree with the choice of partners. Didn't Dax/Jazdia drop Worf when she changed bodies or was it the other way around?

 

[fireproof78]

Didn't Dax/Jazdia drop Worf when she changed bodies or was it the other way around?

Worf did because Jadzia was dead and it took him a while to warm up to Ezri.

Also, Ezri struggled with figuring out what food tastes she liked and it produced a number of conflicts for her deciding at Quark's.

 

[Commishsleer]

Worf did because Jadzia was dead and it took him a while to warm up to Ezri.

Also, Ezri struggled with figuring out what food tastes she liked and it produced a number of conflicts for her deciding at Quark's.

So the new combined being would not necessarily want, expect the same romantic partner as the previously combined being, As happened with Worf. Ezri wasn't all that devastated that Worf didn't want her, was she?
I think this situation was more realistic than the automatic acceptance expected in TNG where the new Odan combined being seemed cool with still being in a relationship with Beverley despite his/her body's new gender.

.

 

[Nyotarules]

TNG's version of the Trill - the host is just a shell based on what happened with Odan and Riker
DS9's version of the Trill - the host is in control based on what happens with Jadzia Dax, Ezri Dax and the Trill who stole Dax

 

[Discofan]

TNG's version of the Trill - the host is just a shell based on what happened with Odan and Riker
DS9's version of the Trill - the host is in control based on what happens with Jadzia Dax, Ezri Dax and the Trill who stole Dax

They're supposed to be two different kinds of Trill. After all, we have two kinds of Andorians and Romulans so why not the Trill too?

 

[Nyotarules]

They're supposed to be two different kinds of Trill. After all, we have two kinds of Andorians and Romulans so why not the Trill too?

True, I guess to Star Trek aliens there are different kinds of humans as well

 

[Discofan]

True, I guess to Star Trek aliens there are different kinds of humans as well

Indeed, the ones with or without heavy make-up... Armin Shimerman spent hours in make-up, sometimes for a short wordless scene!!! I bet he envied Nana Visitor that day...

 

[Makarov]

The thing with Picard ignoring/being irritated about the frozen people from the past reminds me of his initial reaction to Data's creating a daughter... I'm sure he would have woken them up just like he would have allowed Data to create the child, but he was just annoyed in the moment

 

[Discofan]

The thing with Picard ignoring/being irritated about the frozen people from the past reminds me of his initial reaction to Data's creating a daughter... I'm sure he would have woken them up just like he would have allowed Data to create the child, but he was just annoyed in the moment

He should be happy that he didn't wake up Khan's people and Kirk these ones. I am sure Kirk would have preferred it that way.

 

[Commishsleer]

The thing with Picard ignoring/being irritated about the frozen people from the past reminds me of his initial reaction to Data's creating a daughter... I'm sure he would have woken them up just like he would have allowed Data to create the child, but he was just annoyed in the moment

Yeh maybe.
Aside from not wanting to revive them in the first place - I had no issues with Picard's treatment of the 20th century people. He could have been nicer but hey he's not that sort of cuddly guy.

Realistically Picard should have assigned their care to someone who wasn't in the bridge crews - someone to answer their questions and help them acclimatise. Don't tell me no-one in the 1000 plus crew was available. But then we wouldn't have had much of a story then.