Maximum speed of the NuEnterprise

[Set Harth]

It does.

I know. Here it is again:

there's not a shred of evidence to support it, so it doesn't work

This was the point where I first brought up "speculation," remember?

Yes... right after speculating. But then again, apparently some speculations are unassailable while others are not.

It doesn't matter of it's possible, what matters is IF IT HAPPENED.

Well, I'm discussing what's possible, since the dismissal of my position implied its alleged impossibility.

Maybe you should stick to the facts next time?

Orci apparently said that the distress call was faked by Nero. So much for your Spock's wormhole theory. Should have stuck to the facts...

I'm leaning more towards the theory that Nero himself faked the distress signal

...but I see you've already abandoned the idea that it had anything to do with Spock's wormhole. Isn't it strange that an idea allegedly based on EVIDENCE rather than SPECULATION was so easily discarded?

 

[JarodRussell]

Interesting... What in ST3 would suggest the use of impulse power for the trip? Obviously the ship was warp-capable, as evidenced by the later time warp.

Is it just because the ship might have been out of warp when receiving the news of Earth's plight that you deduce she wouldn't have gone to warp at any point? Starships commonly drop down to impulse long before reaching Earth. And Kirk was in no hurry to arrive...

The Movie era FX were remarkably consistent with depictions of impulse and warp drive. In fact, nearly every time we do see the BOP at warp it is shown streaking through space with a yellow tail behind it, so we can know for sure when it is and isn't at warp.

What actually got me was the fact that the Bird of Prey's launch is depicted as being very near to the time the probe entered Earth orbit. The very next scene after this, we have Sulu reporting "Estimating Planet Earth, one point six hours present speed." If the Bird of Prey is going at half the speed of light at this time, that would put the ship well inside the orbit of Jupiter. Which is, I think, a LITTLE late to start wondering where your escort is.

In either case, it's the same issue as in STXI, where it appears the entire voyage is edited out except for the last leg of the trip just before their arrival. The question here involves the editing of the scene: did the probe arrive over Earth at the same time the Bird of Prey took off, or did the probe arrive over Earth only a little before Kirk would have? In the former case, it would mean the President watched the Probe rip Earth a new asshole for a couple of days before he decided to put out that planetary distress signal. In the latter case, it means that Starfleet sat there and watched the probe speeding towards Earth and didn't put out a warning to any other Federation members--Vulcan included--or give any other indication that Kirk and crew would have intercepted during the two to three day trip to Vulcan (and he WOULD have picked it up, since Chekov had programmed the onboard computer to interface with the Federation memory bank).

The only solution that works here is that the scenes worked out the way they were depicted: the probe really DID arrive quickly and with little warning, entering Earth orbit just as Kirk was leaving Vulcan. This means that the Earth-Vulcan run only takes a couple of hours at impulse and a matter of minutes at warp.

And not that things aren't complicated enough, but I might as well invoke the now infamous "Four days there, four days back" to the Klingon Homeworld in Enterprise. The pattern is that warp drive is--under certain circumstances--alot faster than we've been lead to believe, so much so that five to ten minutes between Earth and Vulcan may not be that much of a stretch after all.

I love how you imagine the wildest things about TVH in order to... in order to what actually?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, I'm discussing what's possible

ANYTHING is possible. But not everything is plausible. Plausibility in the face of facts requires some consistency WITH the facts. You seem to be satisfied by consistency with lack of facts, which is illogical. That's what it means to say "You can't prove a negative:" lack of data is not data.

Orci apparently said that the distress call was faked by Nero.

Assuming this is true (and I rather doubt it) you are at least two days late to that particular observation.

Although, if Orci is on record suggesting that, all questions are answered, and you can stop whining about your possibilities; they're NOT possible, because (in that event) we know what really happened.

Isn't it strange that an idea allegedly based on EVIDENCE rather than SPECULATION was so easily discarded?

Speculation based on evidence is speculation based on evidence. Speculation based on nothing is... well, bullshitting.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I love how you imagine the wildest things about TVH in order to... in order to what actually?

The better to build his straw man.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I love how you imagine the wildest things about TVH in order to... in order to what actually?

That's right, I just imagined that the trip from Earth to Vulcan is depicted as taking place in less than a day. If I didn't see it as however-the-hell-you-think-I-should-have-seen-it I must be hallucinating.

 

[JarodRussell]

I love how you imagine the wildest things about TVH in order to... in order to what actually?

That's right, I just imagined that the trip from Earth to Vulcan is depicted as taking place in less than a day. If I didn't see it as however-the-hell-you-think-I-should-have-seen-it I must be hallucinating.

Well, you base your assumptions on a visual effect (one that was also recycled from TSFS, I believe), I base mine on dialogue, scene structure and editing.

In TMP and TWOK, ships are shown having streaks while accelerating. Once they broke the warp barrier, there were no streak anymore.

So you can't really argue with consistency of visual effects in the movie era, I'm afraid.

 

[Captain Robert April]

There ya go, using logic....

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I love how you imagine the wildest things about TVH in order to... in order to what actually?

That's right, I just imagined that the trip from Earth to Vulcan is depicted as taking place in less than a day. If I didn't see it as however-the-hell-you-think-I-should-have-seen-it I must be hallucinating.

Well, you base your assumptions on a visual effect (one that was also recycled from TSFS, I believe)

No, I base the assumption on a matter of timing and plot logic, exactly the way you and others did when complaining about STXI's Earth-Vulcan run. And you'll note upthread that to support this assumption I already referenced other canon materials that suggest both warp drive and impulse power are ALOT faster than we've been lead to believe even in the prime universe.

I base mine on dialogue, scene structure and editing.

And the dialog, scene structure and editing in TVH imply that the trip from Vulcan to Earth required only a couple of hours at impulse power.

In TMP and TWOK, ships are shown having streaks while accelerating. Once they broke the warp barrier, there were no streak anymore.

A convention which is already broken in the second (of two) depictions of warp drive in the film, and discarded entirely in TSFS. By The Voyage Home the streaks are a permanent feature of ANY starship at warp, and again clearly depicted in TUC and the opening scene of Generations.

So you can't really argue with consistency of visual effects in the movie era, I'm afraid.

They seem perfectly consistent to me. I was referring to the apparent inconsistency of the Earth-Vulcan journey never taking more than a day even under impulse power. The only dialog in all of Trek history (AFAIK) to imply a longer voyage is in TMP, where Scotty mentions he can have Spock back on Vulcan "in four days," though it is never made clear if he means before or after a "proper shakedown." If he means after, it's possible they could return Spock to Vulcan in under half an hour IF they warped directly there (and maybe half a day if they went all the way there on impulse power).

 

[JarodRussell]

And the dialog, scene structure and editing in TVH imply that the trip from Vulcan to Earth required only a couple of hours at impulse power.

When do they mention that they are on impulse power?

A convention which is already broken in the second (of two) depictions of warp drive in the film, and discarded entirely in TSFS. By The Voyage Home the streaks are a permanent feature of ANY starship at warp, and again clearly depicted in TUC and the opening scene of Generations.

I see streaks in TVH every time the BoP or the Enterprise accelerate, just as in TMP and TWOK. When they where flying towards the sun, they got faster and faster.
Who's to say that this didn't also happen in TSFS, TUC or Generations, when the ships swoosh past the camera? And then there's also the scene in Generations where the Enterprise chases the Nexus, presumably at warp, too, because the stars are moving quite fast, and there are no streaks at all. And THEN it actually makes no sense at all to argue with effects of movies made after TVH.

 

[Captain Robert April]

HAVE AT THEE, MAN OF STRAW!!

 

[Dukhat]

^So you're reduced to being a cheerleader now? How apt.

 

[Timo]

A few more cheers:

The idea that warp streaks would be associated with acceleration seems perfectly defensible throughout the material, so I'm now officially sold on it. The silly dust clouds of ST:NEM warp accelerations probably belong to the same category... Most TNG ships just happened to be more environmentally friendly, not leaving any rainbows behind at acceleration.

The idea that the BoP in ST4 would have spanned significant distances at impulse is such an oddball one that it would require significant proof, or then serve as a hinge point in some really helpful theory of warp, the universe and everything. Currently, it doesn't seem to do either. There's no indication of the time spent underway, there's quite a bit of indication that the BoP was already on Earth's doorstep when we first saw her, and neither of these issues is affected by our interpretation of the contrail-free exterior view. We're free to choose whether the BoP is at warp or impulse there, neither choice forcing us to believe that the Vulcan-Earth distance can be spanned by impulse speed.

in TMP, where Scotty mentions he can have Spock back on Vulcan "in four days," though it is never made clear if he means before or after a "proper shakedown."

That's a bit hard to swallow. Scotty wanted to test the ship for three and a half days before getting Spock home, but said nary a word when Kirk instead told him to warp the ship directly to interstellar adventures "thataway"? Surely Scotty wouldn't have made his initial objection if the solution to it was as trivial as equating "thataway" with "towards 40 Eri"!

Four days to Vulcan would have to mean starting there and then, just like the "thataway" voyage was started. But yes, it might well include some low-speed testing and whatnot, stretching the duration.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Set Harth]

That's what it means to say "You can't prove a negative:" lack of data is not data.

Which applies to the conspicuous absence of data supporting the wormhole theory.
And you did in fact try to prove a negative, while simultaneously proclaiming the impossibility of such a quest, thus dooming yourself to failure at the outset.

you are at least two days late to that particular observation.

Completely irrelevant. I didn't know it was a race. Do I at least get the silver medal?

Although, if Orci is on record suggesting that, all questions are answered

That's what I said.

Speculation based on evidence is speculation based on evidence. Speculation based on nothing is... well, bullshitting.

Exactly. The body of evidence and canon argued against the presumed seismic disturbances having anything at all to do with Spock's wormhole. That's where the bullshitting came in. One possibility based on speculation is as good as another.