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Maximum speed of the NuEnterprise

I know what a flagship is in the real world, and I know what a flagship is in the Trek world.
Do you? Because in the Trek world it is implied to mean "The most formidable ship in the Federation." In neither sense--that if the ship that carries a fleet commander into battle, or in the sense of "Starfleet's best ship" does it imply Pike would have been briefed on the situation that soon, especially when the ship had not yet even been christened.

Of course, in this case they were at least smart enough not to put of the installation of their photon torpedoes until Tuesday.

Maybe you don't know that there has always been a difference. ;)

Enterprise was the lead ship of a fleet of seven vessels sent to Vulcan; since Pike was promoted to Admiral at the end of the film, it's possible that difference has been eradicated.

So the Captain, who supposedly 3 days later gets promoted to Admiral, of the ship that commands a fleet of 7 ships, is not briefed about important issues like that?
He is when he's an Admiral, yes. Though I imagine it would have been more like 7 days later since it would have taken Starfleet that much time to analyze and follow up on Uhura's report.

In First Contact, Captain Picard is briefed about a Borg attack, although he isn't even part of the plan.
No, he was INFORMED about it and specifically told to stay the hell out of it. Mainly because this was a Borg attack on Earth itself--a pretty big deal--and Enterprise was already on station and in space at the time.

This Enterprise had not yet even been christened, and the incident took place in Klingon space and did not even involve Starfleet yet.

So the idea is that every Captain gets a daily briefing on important political and military issues happening.
That's a rather silly idea since we know that even Kirk was not made aware of the Praxis situation until two months after the fact. Futhermore, it isn't feasible to brief every Captain in the fleet on every random situation in every neighboring empire some cadet just happened to hear about by accident, unless you think Starfleet officers spend 90% of their time listening to briefings.

Again: he was briefed about a "lightning storm", but not about a BATTLE?!
WAS he briefed about a lightning storm? Or did he receive his orders in a written communique from Starfleet that Chekov then recited from his screen?
 
No, he was INFORMED about it...

:guffaw:

Oh wow. My mistake. I am so deeply sorry. He was INFORMED.

So why wasn't Pike INFORMED about such an incident?

on every random situation

DUDE, THAT IS THE POINT! A fleet of 47 Klingon ships destroyed by a SINGLE Romulan ship is NOT a RANDOM situation!

some cadet just happened to hear about by accident

That's right, a cadet made the discovery. In the Long Range Sensor Labs. That name sounds big and official. And that also happened on Earth, right next to Starfleet Headquarters. She was immediately thrown out, so higher ranking officers could handle it. So it was not just a cadet who knew.

And LOL, I'm just imagining another cadet sitting right next to Uhura who makes the discovery of the Lightning Storm inside the Neutral Zone at 22:00 hours. Then one hour later, Uhura makes her discovery. And the officials are now pondering... "do we let Starfleet Command know about this beautiful lightning storm, or the Romulan ship busting 47 Klingon ships?"


And if you think how it works in the real world... if something happens in North Korea, no matter how small, the United States would know, because they are constantly observing their main threats. The entire world would know because of all the tweeters and intergoobles and facetubes of people who received messages about the incident (like radio transmissions). And think how this evolves in the next 250 years on an interstellar level. By the time the subspace transmissions reached the Sensor Lab in San Francisco, the news stations of 150 Federation members would have reported about a big battle between the Federations largest enemies. The Klingons would immediately blame the Romulans, a huge war right next to Federation territory would be at hand. EVERYBODY in Starfleet would know about this, almost as soon as it happened.


Why in TUC Kirk never knew about the explosion of a moon of the Klingon capital planet is just the same type of huge blunder. Probably they were all already retiring or in cryostasis or something, since McCoy didn't know that Sulu had been travelling along the Neutral Zone as Captain of the Excelsior for 3 YEARS. ;)
 
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Why in TUC Kirk never knew about the explosion of a moon of the Klingon capital planet is just the same type of huge blunder. Probably they were all already retiring or in cryostasis or something, since McCoy didn't know that Sulu had been travelling along the Neutral Zone as Captain of the Excelsior for 3 YEARS. ;)

You overlook the obvious - decades of abusing Romulan ale play havoc with short term memory.
 
DUDE, THAT IS THE POINT! A fleet of 47 Klingon ships destroyed by a SINGLE Romulan ship is NOT a RANDOM situation!
Until Starfleet categorizes it otherwise, it is. It's not as if this information was intercepted by an intelligence sweep from the Argolis cluster, it's a distress signal received BY ACCIDENT from an academy cadet. Even IF Starfleet had a reason to inform Pike about it--let alone give him a full briefing with all the current information at hand--they would still have to follow up on it first with their intelligence division to figure out whether or not the message was genuine, whether it's related to another situation they're tracking, what it could mean to the Romulans, what it could mean to the Klingons, and how Starfleet will react. Depending on those conclusions they might end up forward this information to the Constellation instead of Enterprise.

That's right, a cadet made the discovery. In the Long Range Sensor Labs. That name sounds big and official.
Modern comparison: some Naval Academy students in the "Long Range Radio Communications Lab," using a HAM radio accidentally intercepts a message from a Russian official saying that a Chinese ASAT missile has just shot down a Russian Soyuz-TKS spacecraft. They immediately call their superior, who takes the message, sends the students home, and calls HIS superior.

But your reasoning, by the following morning news of the attack should have gone out from Annapolis to every command grade officer in the U.S. Navy, even on ships that are still sitting in port waiting for a shakedown cruise. History, however, shows this is rarely the case; in Starfleet's case, it's more likely that the first Pike would have heard about it was when the Federation News Service reported the fact that the Klingons had declared war on Romulus in response to the attack.

And LOL, I'm just imagining another cadet sitting right next to Uhura who makes the discovery of the Lightning Storm inside the Neutral Zone at 22:00 hours. Then one hour later, Uhura makes her discovery. And the officials are now pondering... "do we let Starfleet Command know about this beautiful lightning storm, or the Romulan ship busting 47 Klingon ships?"
I doubt they pondered it very long. I also doubt the Starfleet officials responsible for those kind of inquiries would have been on their speed dial, considering they are, you know, Academy instructors and not SIGINT specialists.

And if you think how it works in the real world... if something happens in North Korea, no matter how small, the United States would know, because they are constantly observing their main threats.
Absolutely the United States would know. The first people who would know about it would be the CIA or the military intelligence division that uncovered the information. From there it goes through the pipeline to the Pentagon to be taken apart and broken down by analysts, and depending on what the situation is, it either goes straight to the President in an emergency briefing, or the appropriate cabinet member. AFTER that point, the Navy may decide to provide detailed information to its commanders in the region and tell them to be prepared for possible problems, assuming they haven't already figured it out from their own sources.

The one thing that will NOT happen is that some academy cadet hears about, say, 47 North Korean tanks being destroyed by an air attack and six hours later the Captain of a yet-to-be-launched aircraft carrier gets a full report on the situation. The information has to go up and then back down the chain of command for that, and unless Pike is the instructor in charge of the Long Range Sensor Lab, he would be one of the LAST people to know about it.

The entire world would know because of all the tweeters and intergoobles and facetubes of people who received messages about the incident (like radio transmissions). And think how this evolves in the next 250 years on an interstellar level.
I doubt that changes matters much. Captain Pike may have a twitter account, but Klingons use ForeheadSpace. It would take considerably longer than twelve hours for that information to find its way to Pike's hands by accident. As it stands, the only reason he knew anything about it at all was because Kirk happened to overhear Uhura mention it to Gaila; even Kirk didn't initially think it was all that important until he heard about the lightning storm.

Indeed, the only two people in the entire fleet who would have connected the two were Pike and Kirk. The rest of Starfleet's brass would have read the report and shaken their heads thinking "Aw, not this shit again... Better beef up border security."

Why in TUC Kirk never knew about the explosion of a moon of the Klingon capital planet is just the same type of huge blunder.
How do you figure? The only reason Excelsior knew about it was because they were sitting right there on the border. Rumors would have crossed the border via merchants and radio traffic, but the Klingon news service would have censored it and the Federation news service would be pulling their hair out trying to figure out what was going on.

Space, you know, is very very BIG. Across interstellar distances, unless you've got a Starship-grade sensor array and a lot of time on your hands, what's happening ten light years away might as well be on the other side of the galaxy. Subspace sensors or not, we'd be hard pressed to spot the explosion of a moon in Alpha Centuari, let alone hundreds of light years away.
 
Federation communications have a maximum range of about 22 light years before the signal becomes degraded and weak so any signal from Klingon space would be funnelled through several relays and communications stations before it gets to Earth. The Vulcan system is also situated between Klingon space and Earth so they would have received it first. Uhura was tasked with monitoring that particular batch of communications signals but its seems unlikely that she was the only person in the whole Federation who was monitoring signals from Klingon space given the distance that the signal had to travel, particularly a distress signal (which Starfleet as a humanitarian organisation monitors with automatic priority). Given how few captains and starships that there appear to be on Earth, it does seem unlikely that Pike wouldn't have been apprised of a significant incident like this. All the plausible(?) justifications don't make it look less odd.
 
Random points:

1) Pike is in command of the seven-ship fleet? Doesn't sound at all like it - the fleet doesn't even care when Pike is left behind! Rather, it sounds like the Truman was the command ship, and Pike's untested and potentially unspaceworthy vessel was subservient to her.

2) The seven big starships on Earth, something we could mistake for a formidable force, are here considered leftovers of sorts - Starfleet overall appears to be a really big organization (such as in the later spinoffs, even though TOS and earlier spinoffs may have misled us). So briefing everybody on everything does appear completely implausible. Plus it's completely inconsistent with how briefings were treated in TOS and spinoff precedent.

3) I don't think Uhura observed UFP communications signals when she found out about the Klingon-Romulan ruffle. It sounds much more likely that she listened in to something that wasn't on the usual communications channels. It strikes me as perfectly plausible that Earth would enjoy direct input from one of Starfleet's top listening installations, one capable of eavesdropping on conversations nobody else can overhear.

4) There are few starships near Earth because the main fleet is doing something important over at the Laurentian system. Which sort of means the ships near Earth are considered unworthy of this assignment. Which sort of gives a good excuse for Starfleet not caring much about them in terms of informing about important developments...

Pike's ship was not serviceworthy yet - waiting for her maiden voyage and all that. Her skipper was probably on holiday, not listening to Starfleet briefings, when the alarm came! Pike would have every excuse in the world to be out of the loop.

5) Fun speculation: Pike wanted new, boiling-hot blood into Starfleet and disparaged the current establishment. Perhaps Starfleet was reluctant to trust him with military secrets? :devil:

Timo Saloniemi
 
5) Fun speculation: Pike wanted new, boiling-hot blood into Starfleet and disparaged the current establishment. Perhaps Starfleet was reluctant to trust him with military secrets? :devil:

More like a bad break-up with Admiral Wotsisname meant Pike was no longer privy to pillow talk. :eek:
 
Random points:

1) Pike is in command of the seven-ship fleet? Doesn't sound at all like it - the fleet doesn't even care when Pike is left behind! Rather, it sounds like the Truman was the command ship, and Pike's untested and potentially unspaceworthy vessel was subservient to her.

2) The seven big starships on Earth, something we could mistake for a formidable force, are here considered leftovers of sorts - Starfleet overall appears to be a really big organization (such as in the later spinoffs, even though TOS and earlier spinoffs may have misled us). So briefing everybody on everything does appear completely implausible. Plus it's completely inconsistent with how briefings were treated in TOS and spinoff precedent.

[...]

4) There are few starships near Earth because the main fleet is doing something important over at the Laurentian system. Which sort of means the ships near Earth are considered unworthy of this assignment. Which sort of gives a good excuse for Starfleet not caring much about them in terms of informing about important developments...

Pike's ship was not serviceworthy yet - waiting for her maiden voyage and all that. Her skipper was probably on holiday, not listening to Starfleet briefings, when the alarm came! Pike would have every excuse in the world to be out of the loop.

[...]

Timo Saloniemi

If the Enterprise was untested, unspaceworthy and basically leftover garbage... why would Uhura insist on getting assigned to this ship? And why would Pike call it the flagship? No, the Enterprise is the most advanced ship in the fleet, just as Kirk is the best Captain. When I say that Kirk character I saw in this movie is not the best Captain, you'd strongly disagree, wouldn't you?

Jarod Russell
 
When I say that Kirk character I saw in this movie is not the best Captain, you'd strongly disagree, wouldn't you?

He was the best tactician out of a bad bunch but even then his final plan was incredibly risky with no real back-up (they have 4 spare places on the transporter pad but didn't even take a security team to help them ward off an unknown number of Romulans (Kirk only survived because he was lucky at least twice) and no back-up scientist or Romulan speakers if Spock was injured - that's about as smart as giving all the explosives to one crewman on a risky skydive).

Was he the best captain? Not really, that was Pike, who was able to weigh up competing interests and reach the best conclusion. Spock was too cautious and Kirk too reckless but between them they might make a good captain as long as they learn to value each other's opinions.
 
When I say that Kirk character I saw in this movie is not the best Captain, you'd strongly disagree, wouldn't you?

He was the best tactician out of a bad bunch but even then his final plan was incredibly risky with no real back-up (they have 4 spare places on the transporter pad but didn't even take a security team to help them ward off an unknown number of Romulans (Kirk only survived because he was lucky at least twice) and no back-up scientist or Romulan speakers if Spock was injured - that's about as smart as giving all the explosives to one crewman on a risky skydive).

Was he the best captain? Not really, that was Pike, who was able to weigh up competing interests and reach the best conclusion. Spock was too cautious and Kirk too reckless but between them they might make a good captain as long as they learn to value each other's opinions.

Yeah, that's the difference between what you've seen in the movie and how the writers intended it to be. Kirk is supposed to be the best Captain and the Enterprise is supposed to be the best ship.

Just as the journey from Earth to Vulcan is supposed to be taking several hours, yet in the final movie it takes only 3 minutes.

Or how the writers intended to let Starfleet and its Captains look competent, yet in the final movie everyone seems again to be really stupid so that Kirk can brightly shine.
 
Just as the journey from Earth to Vulcan is supposed to be taking several hours, yet in the final movie it takes only 3 minutes.

It took three minutes to portray it, just as it took only a few minutes to portray it in "The Voyage Home." The 'trip to vulcan' has taken however long anyone wanted to, so bringing it up is moot.
 
Just as the journey from Earth to Vulcan is supposed to be taking several hours, yet in the final movie it takes only 3 minutes.

It took three minutes to portray it, just as it took only a few minutes to portray it in "The Voyage Home." The 'trip to vulcan' has taken however long anyone wanted to, so bringing it up is moot.

No, watch it again. Unless the ship needs hours to get to maximum warp, they only need about 3 1/2 minutes to get from Earth to Vulcan. There is a glitch in the editing that causes that impression. Sulu says they reached maximum warp, then Pike immediately tells Chekov to make the anouncement to the crew, and in that exact anouncement he says they will reach Vulcan in 3 minutes. And we can assume that a ship goes from 0 to maximum warp in much less than several hours, can't we?

What they would have needed to do: put Sulu's sentence right after the Enterprise jumps to warp and THEN cut to Kirk and McCoy entering sickbay, and then back to Pike asking Chekov to make the anouncement. But in the final movie, the Enterprise jumps to warp, then Kirk and McCoy enter sickbay first, and THEN Sulu states they have reached maximum warp. So the only place to put several hours between this scene arrangement is between Kirk getting unconscious and Sulu saying they reached maximum warp. That's some unlucky editing there. Again: intention vs. execution.
 
Just as the journey from Earth to Vulcan is supposed to be taking several hours, yet in the final movie it takes only 3 minutes.

It took three minutes to portray it, just as it took only a few minutes to portray it in "The Voyage Home." The 'trip to vulcan' has taken however long anyone wanted to, so bringing it up is moot.

No, watch it again.

No need, thanks.

Unless the ship needs hours to get to maximum warp, they only need about 3 1/2 minutes to get from Earth to Vulcan. There is a glitch in the editing that causes that impression. Sulu says they reached maximum warp, then Pike immediately tells Chekov to make the anouncement to the crew, and in that exact anouncement he says they will reach Vulcan in 3 minutes. And we can assume that a ship goes from 0 to maximum warp in much less than several hours, can't we?

Sure. But you're still assuming it took 3 minutes total. Watch it again, McCoy has time to get in to his regular uniform.

What they would have needed to do: put Sulu's sentence right after the Enterprise jumps to warp and THEN cut to Kirk and McCoy entering sickbay, and then back to Pike asking Chekov to make the anouncement. But in the final movie, the Enterprise jumps to warp, then Kirk and McCoy enter sickbay first, and THEN Sulu states they have reached maximum warp. So the only place to put several hours between this scene arrangement is between Kirk getting unconscious and Sulu saying they reached maximum warp. That's some unlucky editing there. Again: intention vs. execution.

And regardless, you're still assuming it took all of three minutes. :techman:
 
What assumption do you think is more valid? That a ship needs about one or two minutes to accelerate to maximum warp, or that it takes hours? At least the first one can be backed up by several episodes throughout Trek.

But you're still assuming it took 3 minutes total. Watch it again, McCoy has time to get in to his regular uniform.

I don't know how long you need to switch clothes, but I don't need more than a minute. So let's say 5 minutes passed altogether. Or 10. 15 minutes to get from Earth to Vulcan. Still a lot less than several hours, and still too short, no?
 
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What assumption do you think is more valid? That a ship needs about one or two minutes to accelerate to maximum warp, or that it takes hours? At least the first one can be backed up by several episodes throughout Trek.
Truly a badly edited scene to be sure. Of course it doesn't take much imagination to picture the "we're at maximum warp" line coming a day and a half later, after Captain Pike walks onto the bridge after a night's sleep and spends most of the morning reviewing a much more detailed version of Chekov's "mission broadcast."

I don't know how long you need to switch clothes, but I don't need more than a minute.
I'm not sure you noticed this, but Kirk changed his clothes too, before even going to sickbay. McCoy probably talked his way into the quartermaster's office and got him registered as a crewmember.

The better question is, how long does it take you to wake up from a mild sedative?
 
I don't know how long you need to switch clothes, but I don't need more than a minute. So let's say 5 minutes passed altogether. Or 10. 15 minutes to get from Earth to Vulcan. Still a lot less than several hours, and still too short, no?

Too short only if you feel that way and still assuming it took that amount of time.
 
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