LOL! Noooooooo!
I can live with warp corridors personally. It will only take one character to mention them and 75% of fan objections to speed of the plot will get their own 'a wizard did it' excuse.
Maximum speed of the NuEnterprise
- Thread starter EJA
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LOL! Noooooooo!
I can live with warp corridors personally. It will only take one character to mention them and 75% of fan objections to speed of the plot will get their own 'a wizard did it' excuse.
Yet if it seemed important enough to make a distinction, a term would be created for it, hence the difference between singularity and black hole.
I think you don't know what a colloquialism is then.
I think you just proved my point right there. I never, not once said that they have to fully describe it or bog things down. Go back and find where I did, and you will see this is your own invention. I never said anything had to be ridiculously complex to get an accurate point across.
Or they could simplify the name, like red matter, which is what I said.
Even still, I think you give people too much credit about knowing what black holes really are. The average person doesn't care what they call it so long as they understand what it does and so long as they aren't slapped in the face with crazy technical terms.
With properties that counter the gravity. In essence, there would be a gap or wedge in the event horizon, and it could no longer sufficiently be described as a black hole because there would be a large gap that wasn't black.
How can you not understand that these terms are different for a reason?
But it's not. DUH!
Because once you've gone past the event horizon, chances are that you've already undergone spaghettification and annihilation. You can't warp anywhere because you're dead.
The effect is the effect of the wormhole, not of the ship using warp drive. They were traveling at sub-light speed always.
In science, "theory" is defined differently than for other fields. Theory of gravity, theory of evolution, etc. are actually very established facts that only require something that contradicts it for it to be reworked.
Our "theory" of what a black hole looks like is based on evidence. Sure, it's possibly wrong, but there should be a good reason for it to be wrong.
No, I'm not! The way it looks is part of my objection, not the only objection. The science is not fine, and I'm hardly the first person to note this.
You would be really surprised. Many scripts are written describing how things look in detail. Then the director or producer will speak with the writer to get a clearer idea if he is unsure, and he will convey that message to the artists. The artists aren't just some independent arm that the writers have zero influence over.
Well, one can see that writers and art department didn't talk to each other when dialogue says "It looks like a lightning storm" while the effect clearly doesn't. 
And the visual depiction of the black hole is already wrong because it simply is just a flat black disc. There's no distortion around it like it would be. And there's no time dilation. Kirk, Spock and Nero would not be able to talk to each other in the way the movie depicted it. And yeah: the Narade coming out of a black hole is pure nonsense. If light can't escape it (otherwise it wouldn't be black) then MATTER can't escape it, either. And the last black hole was forming INSIDE the Narada, yet all of a sudden, the black disc expanded AROUND the ship. The Narada would have been completely sucked in and spaghetificated (if that's even a proper word) before the event horizon expanded outside.
And the visual depiction of the black hole is already wrong because it simply is just a flat black disc. There's no distortion around it like it would be. And there's no time dilation. Kirk, Spock and Nero would not be able to talk to each other in the way the movie depicted it. And yeah: the Narade coming out of a black hole is pure nonsense. If light can't escape it (otherwise it wouldn't be black) then MATTER can't escape it, either. And the last black hole was forming INSIDE the Narada, yet all of a sudden, the black disc expanded AROUND the ship. The Narada would have been completely sucked in and spaghetificated (if that's even a proper word) before the event horizon expanded outside.
Arguing for the accurate depiction of black holes in Star Trek is like ordering a Diet Coke with your triple order of KFC Double Downs. It's irrelevant at best, delusional at worst.
So you assume, but as I showed the message still could have gotten out despite the drill being in operation.
You're not making sense. Showing the drill being used after the distress signal does not undermine the communication interference being the result of the drill, which is what is established by the film.
We should assume the level of scientific expertise exemplified by the Vulcan Science Academy to be reflected in Vulcan planetary defense.
Frequency of WHAT? That's the problem with using technoprecedent as gospel since even the writers aren't really sure what "warp core frequency" even means. Does this refer to the frequency of the injector pulse? The resonant frequency of the dilithium crystal? The radiative frequency of the warp field expansion? The electromagnetic frequency of the containment field? The frequency of the plasma pulses in the drive coils?
In Voyager this is never explained, so you can only guess as to what "warp core frequency" means. In the end, though, it doesn't really matter; the writers could just as well have said "the coaxial variance of the chocolate sprinkles" and have the concept work exactly the same.
But it DOESN'T contradict pre-existing Trek. There is nothing in the entire history of Trek that suggests that far-fetched and poorly understood gimmicks cannot be used to massively boost the performance of transporters/sensors/engines/weapons etc. The only difference in this case is Voyager writers pretend to understand what the transporter techs were doing. STXI writers did not.
The in-universe explanation I already proposed is satisfactory. You would be forced to (and in fact, DID) find an out-of-universe reason to dispute it.
We also didn't see ALL of them. As it stands we got a glimpse of 14 shuttlecraft that appeared to be the tail end of a very long convoy.
I thought that the frequency of the plasma that actually shifts into subspace sounds like it is the thing generating the warp field and if its frequency varies with speed (which normally has to be matched when transporting at warp) it sounds to me that this is the warp core frequency. If you have specific evidence to suggest that something else fits the bill, post your evidence. I'm genuinely interested to see what the other options could be but I don't include stringing words together as evidence unless they're strung together by a Trek writer in some kind of official forum!
Your point kind of supports what I'm saying though. It does seem as though the writers don't know what any of the stuff means and a lot of the basics have solid foundations that the writers ignored.
I'm not totally averse to "the coaxial variance of the chocolate sprinkles" as long as the next time they use the same plot contrivance they don't instead rely upon a neutrino pulse from Troi's thong.
Hmmm but this is a prequel. I'm ok with contradicting 'future' canon if it's because the tech is less sophisticated in this era. In this instance they were not only transporting onto a ship at warp, they were transporting onto a ship at warp some 50 billion km away with (according to you) no targeting sensors and no long range transmitter using only a computer formula. That's a technological leap that is pretty majorly significant and in my view the leaps forward in tech weakened and sanitised the franchise.
Well, only if you mean blaming poorly researched writing as 'out-of-universe' but that conclusion was only reached after finding 'in-universe' information that made the events of the movie look stupid.
I have no real world comparison but it seems to me that there wasn't enough time to ferry 800 people off the ship in shuttles (even 14 sounds like a lot in the time we see). The shuttle elevators in the hangar bay always seemed quite slow to me. I just can't see how they could unpark, prep and load that many shuttles in such a short space of time. I think that was why life pods were included in the first place.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
One would think. However, if that were the case, their planetary defenses would have at least made an effort to stop this gigantic tentacled death ship from entering their space and drilling a hole in their planet (and don't give me the excuse that the Narada was cloaked. There was absolutely no mention of any type of cloaking device anywhere in the movie. Nor was the Narada cloaked at any other point in the movie. So cloaking devices are a non-issue). But it didn't. All the NuVulcans did was send a distress call about some seismic disturbances. Oooookaaaaay. Why do they need to call a fleet of starships for an earthquake (Vulcanquake
)? It just didn't make any sense. And since the Narada was parked in a stationary orbit, why couldn't missiles or defense ships of some kind have been sent from the other side of the planet? He was a sitting duck. I guess his "simple mining vessel" was just too much for anything these poor Vulcans or humans could throw at it.
Hell, they could've lobbed asteroids towed by shuttlecraft at him. No guidance system to jam and they deliver one helluva wallop.
Except there's no evidence--not even circumstantial--to support this, where the distress signal itself is circumstantial evidence against the drill being active.
But the film doesn't establish that the drill was active when the distress signal was sent, nor does it establish that the drill was the cause of the seismic disturbances. I repeat: we do not see the drill being active until long AFTER the distress signal was sent (in fact, IIRC, we don't even see it until the Enterprise is already on its way).
Why? Defense isn't a scientific endeavor. Besides, you were rattling off reasons why "the Vulcans should have known this," "the Vulcans should have done that" based on the assumption that the Vulcans IN GENERAL are a race of supergenious scientists highly trained in logical analysis and computer science. Even if any elements of their defense force--assuming they even have one--survived the destruction of the planet, they're in no better position to combat Nero than Starfleet is, and since they didn't directly communicate with him (and don't have access to expertise like Pike and Kirk) they're almost totally in the dark about what's happened to their planet.
It certainly could be. It also could be the "plasma frequency," or the "EPS frequency," or the "dynamic field modulation," or anything else. You don't know, you can only guess, because the writers never actually provided that information.
Evidence of what? "warp core frequency" is a technical gibberish term that writers literally made up just so the transporter technician would have something to match and achieve the desired effect. Anything I could present will be equally made up.
You might as well be asking me for evidence that a unicorn can outrun a minotaur. Though it irritates you severely, the only CORRECT answer is "Depends on who's writing it."
Right, and the writers have been ignoring the basics of Trek science at their convenience since at least TOS.
It's not a leap so much as it is an incredibly dangerous and ill-advised gamble (as Scotty found out the hard way, materializing inside a water tank). A second attempt, with a crewmember materializing inside an impulse engine, and a third with one of the officers materializing OUTSIDE his intended target, would be enough to have this particular technique relegated to the annals of "Unbelievably dangerous things you should never do on a starship." Probably file it away between "Kolvoord Starburst" and "Saucer Separation at Maximum Warp."
They were fast enough, considering the amount of time Robau bought them while flying to the Narada (having previously ordered George Kirk to be prepared for that evacuation in the first place).
From the time Winona Kirk boarded Shuttle 37 to the time it left the hangar was (by my count) about 20 seconds. Her shuttle left at the same time as at least six other craft departing alongside. That's seven shuttles in 20 seconds. This means if a good portion of the crew was already standing by to evacuate, Kelvin would have required--at maximum--a full two minutes to disembark all thirty shuttles.
Like pods--like life jackets in their terrestial counterparts--are intended to prolong the lives of an ejected crew just long enough to be rescued by another ship or to find shelter on a convenient (habitable) planet. That would be covered under Robau's "there is no help for us out here," and thank god the new-timeline Starfleet is smart enough to provide enough shuttles (or least, LARGE ENOUGH shuttles) for the entire crew to get clear if need be.
Looking at the shuttle we saw at the bar and the academy you might be able to pack about 40 people in a shuttle. The bar scene shuttles seem to have four rows of seats running the length of the shuttle. The academy shuttles seats run the width of the shuttle. So maybe ten rows of four. So 20 shuttles to transport 800 people.
Yes and no. If I'm playing Dungeons & Dragons a unicorn CAN outrun a minotaur because their respective speeds are specified in the rules. Thus if I want a Minotaur to outrun a unicorn I have to think of a specific reason why (magically enhanced minotaur, wounded unicorn etc). Much of Trek's technical gibberish has foundation. On balance of probablilites, none of your suggestions are as compellingly linked to ship speed and warp frequencies as the phased plasma that actually creates the field.
Murders have been going on since time began. That doesn't mean we should abolish it as a crime. While true, this excuse is worthless as justification.
On this we agree! The problem is that the writers write themselves into a corner so they have to come up with ridiculous get-outs. You also see it in shows like 24 where they amp up the stakes to such levels that only ridiculously unlikely solutions can work e.g. they can't secure a perimeter for toffees or get a handle on background checks for high level government staff but Jack can dodge bullets and survive explosions unscathed.
The danger is that all dramatic tension and perceived risk is removed because we know the characters won't die. Now if Scotty had ended up inside a bulkhead I would have been blown away by their boldness while being conflicted at the death of a major character (Amanda wasn't really a major character). My view of the film would still be fairly positive but Scotty fans would be hugely aggrieved.
This is true actually. It would have been sensible for Robeau to pootle across slowly to give his crew more time to get the ships lined up. Shuttle bays usually aren't so big that all available shuttles could park up ready for take off but they could certainly get wave one ready to roll.
However, the evacuation time shown was speed of plot. There are only so many turbolifts to the shuttle bay and look at TMP so see how much space fewer than half the Kelvin's crew took up in the Rec Deck.
I think launching shuttles to collect extra crew from life pods would work or beamimg crew onto them before launch or while inside the ship's shield using emergency transporters could save time (although beaming inside ships like that isn't usually done). I base my observations on the TMP flight deck. We don't see much of the Kelvin's interior though and it is a big ship so it may be that their shuttle bay is huge by comparison or has more turbolifts.
Some observers have noted that Abramsprise has a flight deck that is too big to fit inside the ship so I think it was an issue over which there was some confusion. The Enterprise was not a super massive ship.
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Yes, that foundation is the same as your made-up specific reason (magically enhanced minotaur, wounded unicorn, etc) based on established rules.
The established rules of transporters give them certain limitations of range and the circumstances in which they can/cannot be used. These rules are often bent--or sometimes just plain broken--using all kinds of "magic" fixes introduced to the plot to cover them. In this case, Voyager used the technological equivalent of "enhanced minotaur." STXI used the technological equivalent of "minotaur on PCP." It's the same use of convenient mods to make the story do what you need it to do.
That's because "phased plasma that actually creates the field" is a backstage as opposed to canon source.
As it stands, the tech manual describes a different process altogether:
Notice that this an EM signal with a frequency measured in hertz, inside the warp core, not in the warp field surrounding the ship; is THIS the warp core frequency then?TNG Manual said:
Again, we don't know, because we're not meant to know. The writers didn't know. Because they made up the concept specifically as a mod to transporter use that would allow them to do what they wanted. In this case, Scotty's transwarp equation satisfies the exact same criterion in exactly the same way. Not only is it precedented, it sets a NEW precedent that other Trek (and novels) can follow.
As it stands, having Kirk save his ass from a water turbine got the point across well enough for me. Besides, having Scotty introduced to the movie only to be killed off in a horrible accident forty seconds later would be far more irritating than any of the supposed plot holes you've been complaining about.
Indeed. This is why some starships still have stairs.
Either of which is still far more complicated and riskier than simply evacuating the entire crew on their shuttle contingent, especially in the middle of a combat situation.
The new one is. Volumewise it's half the size of the Galaxy Class.
I'm not wholly convinced that they aren't talking about the same principle in slighlty different ways. However, they still talk about a range of frequencies and not a single static frequency that could be memorised and input without the use of sensors.
Oh I think you are probably right that ships should probably have enough shuttles to use as lifeboats for the crew with life pods as a back up for the saucer section; I'm not sure why they didn't unless it was simply a parking space issue - the Titanic springs to mind.
The TMP refit is my favourite but suggestions are that she had 4 shuttles (squeeze maybe 40 on board), 4 travel pods (maybe 10) plus 6 fighter craft. The idea of fighter craft never really got off the ground (no pun intended) so if you replace all the fighter craft with shuttles that's just about enough space to evacuate the crew I suppose.
Still, I think if you have to evacuate the ship during combat you are entirely at the mercy of your enemy anyway. Even the shuttles can't travel fast enough to escape a determined enemy. Plus 40 people with one toilet and no sonic shower - Starfleet personnel would rather die.
Apparently the windows and decks on the external shots don't match up to the enlarged shuttle bay. It was meant to be slightly larger but now is either twice that size or secretly a TARDIS.
They're not. "Phased plasma" and "electromagnetic energy" are two COMPLETELY different things. The implication in the tech manual is that warp plasma is only an energy carrier for the driver coils, which then shift that ENERGY into the subspace domain.
The Trek magazine writers simply screwed up.
Which kinda rules this out as a candidate for Scotty's trick, doesn't it? He must have used something different, like the ship's "warp signature," which is distinct enough at ANY speed that an individual ship can be identified by long range sensors. Or he could have used something else entirely, how would we know?
Probert's original matte painting depicted at least twelve in a lower hangar. OTOH, Probert's TMP shuttles weren't warp capable anyway, so small barely-mobile life boats makes more sense in this regard: if a rescue ship doesn't show up in a timely fashion, the crew is screwed whether they're in shuttles or not.
Of course, Starfleet has always demonstrated an alarming tendency to pack people in like sardines during evacuations (see DS9 evacuating its entire non-Bajoran population on three runabouts in "The Siege") so this kind of makes sense too.
From what I can tell they match up just fine. At least as well as they did with the Enterprise-D model (which, admittedly, wasn't that well).
Ok - I assumed it was the electromagnetic energy from the plasma coils that were phasing the plasma. I'm still not sure that it isn't, largely because I don't read Trek tech!
Still, you are postulating that there are two completely different methods of transporting from a non-warp location to a location at warp both equally valid and equally dangerous one of which is used by the Maquis and one of which is used by Spock? Spock's version requires only an equation with no sensors or transmitters and works across interstellar distances. Why would anybody ever use the other method? I suppose Scotty didn't make it public knowledge...
There's probably more than two. And there are probably less and more dangerous techniques that Spock may or may not be aware of. Transwarp beaming a la Scotty's method is the one he's most familiar with, though, because he happens to know Scotty personally (he either knew him when he was developing it or made it a point to study the technique because he knows Scotty never toys with anything that isn't pure gold).
How many people are even aware of that method, let alone know enough about it to use it, let alone would be stupid enough to try it? The Maquis technique is probably a good deal safer, but requires a sensor fix, which Spock didn't have.
Hell, you might as well be asking the same question about Spock's breakaway-slingshot time travel maneuver. Starfleet SHOULD know all about it by now, but it was never used again by anyone other than Spock in TVH. Why would you use any other method when the slingshot maneuver is tried and trusted?
This made me think of something. Thinking in terms of audio frequencies for a moment, and of musical tones in particular, nearly any sound you hear an instrument produce consists of a fundamental pitch (having a specific frequency) and an overtone or harmonic series consisting of higher tones (in varying intensities) which are frequency multiples of the fundamental. Which overtones are stronger or weaker determines tone quality - it it's the particulars of the overtone series which make a violin sound like a violin, a clarinet sound like a clarinet, and so forth. This would, of course, also be true of non-pitched sounds; the spectrum just gets a whole lot more complex.
Could not the warp core signature be an analogue to this? Might each warp core have its own unique "harmonic series" determined by mathematical relations to a fundamental operating frequency?
Just throwing that out there.
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