Mass Effect 3

[Reverend]

Well, the crucible and the three choices (however dumb that may be) has nothing to do with the reapers plans, so it doesn't really have any bearing on their motivations or criteria for "ascension" to reaper form.

Initially I did actually wonder if the crucible plans were introduced into the cycles by the crucible itself. The EC (I think?) put paid to that idea since you can ask directly who came up with it and the response was a disappointing "you do not know them, and it would take too long to explain." That made me think it might be survivors from whatever race created them, so Leviathan looked promising for this theory for a while, but that doesn't appear to be the case either.

I suppose it's good that there are some mysteries. I mean the cycles have been going for at least a billion years, averaging about 50,000 years a go, that's around 20,000 cycles *minimum*. Plenty of time for all kinds of variance in the pattern. Perhaps one race succeeded in a similar initiative that Javik attempted and managed to preserve a substantial population into the following cycle? Maybe a race took a page out of the reaper's playbook; retrofitting their surviving fleets as stasis arcs and sending them out into darkspace where they can't be tracked.

It would be nice to think that the last cycle wasn't *completely* unique and some other race at least gave the reapers a run for their money. Maybe something like that is what actually prompted them to build the relay network and citadel; to increase efficiency and better control the colonization patterns of emerging civilizations.

 

[Angel4576]

The "You wouldn't know them" line always cracks me up, largely because of the response it gets on BSN. Frankly though, we wouldn't know them, so what would be the point of assigning them an arbitrary name?

The liquization question is an interesting one - can't see it being the Batarians, or the Vorcha. Who does that leave? The Drell, the Hanar? Was that it, were the Reapers going after Blasto?!

Re the Crucible - disappointing on Starbrat's part - they've been aware of the crucible design for a number of cycles, in the previous cycle the Protheans actually built the damned thing, so how come Starbrat, or the Reapers never bothered studying it to the point of being able to counteract it?

 

[Reverend]

Pretty sure Harbinger says the Drell are useless because there aren't enough of them left. So clearly there's a minimum biomass threshold for a new reaper to be viable. Kind of makes you wonder if there were relatively few Leviathans that went into creating Harbinger, given how *huge* they are. Maybe in the tens or hundreds of thousands rather than billions?

Can't really see it being the Hanar. Nor the Volus or Elcor. I say the Batarians since they're most like the humans, more so than the other races at least. I suppose you could say the same about the Turians, but then Harby called them "too primitive" whatever that means. Perhaps they're just to rigid and I'll equipped for adaptation? The Batarians seem adaptable, aggressive, ambitious, their only real weakness was their political system and I'm not sure how much that'd figure into things, one way or the other.

The "You wouldn't know them" line always cracks me up, largely because of the response it gets on BSN. Frankly though, we wouldn't know them, so what would be the point of assigning them an arbitrary name?

Not that I disagree, but you must admit it does rather smack of lazy writing. But then the whole bit about every race down the ages adding to and developing the design and yet somehow none of them have a clue what it's original function was just makes no sense.

One of my theories up until the Starchild scene was that it was a supernova generator. Tying in the dark matter/ageing sun subplot from ME2. The basic idea being that it uses the mass relays to selectively target the suns they orbit and make them go boom, taking any reapers in the system with them. I thought the "big decision" would be whether to sacrifice Sol and humanity to take them all out at once, or (with low EMS) set them all off, hitting the big resent button for the whole galaxy.

I'm not saying my notion was any better, but at least it makes some semblance of sense. It's also why I barely hesitated to pick destroy in the end, since I went in fully prepared to sacrifice one race to save the others. It's sad to loose EDI & the Geth, but they both expressed in the game that they'd rather risk non-functionality than allow the reapers to continue.

 

[Angel4576]

I don't know, I just don't see it being the Batarians. They're like humans, but farther back, so why wouldn't it just have been humans from the start.

Re the quote - Yeah, it probably was just lazy writing tbh - they were rushing to get the EC out, and being realistic, had they name-dropped an arbitrarily named new alien race, then that would just lead to even more questions, so I'm willing to forgive them for that omission. In the grand scheme of things, that was a very minor gripe compared with some of the other complaints.

Re the Crucible, I thought it would somehow involve the relays, that much seemed fairly obvious I thought. I didn't foresee the Starbrat though, I doubt anyone in their right mind did.

Destroy - the only choice really. It's what I went to the Citadel to do, kill the Reapers. Not to become TIM/Catalyst 2.0, and not to create the master-race through genetically raping the galaxy via space magic. Destroy ends the Reapers' billion-year cycle of bullsh1t. Sure, there are casualties, but as you said, EDI and the Geth knew the score, and willingly signed on. It was a sad loss, but an acceptable one. Compared to doing an about-face and suddenly deciding that TIM and Saren had been right all along, or from changing the nature of all life in the galaxy (and effectively giving the Starbrat exactly what it wants), then the loss of both EDI and the Geth, is a small price to pay.

 

[LeadHead]

Yeah, I've entertained the idea of doing the other endings before but always done destroy and since I find so much fault with the endings, have decided that the citadel post mission dlc should take place after taking back earth. Therefore, EDI lives somehow. It's not all that delusional if Shepard could live. Plus, I've put so much time into this series, I feel it's the only appropriate response. And it makes me actually not hate the Earth/Citadel missions, because it allows for there to be a dawn after the darkness.

Anyhoo, I could never choose the other options because of just how insidious the Reapers were. Indoctrination, converting people into husks, targeting civilians, the list goes on. An evil that bad just had to be destroyed. Also, not let Starbrat who did all of this retain his forces, just in case he somehow survived and since he had been responsible for trillions of deaths if not more, the possibility, however remote that he might somehow regain control of them is simply unacceptable.

Also, it's one thing to use leftover Prothean Technology, it's another to use something made of Ground-up-Protheans. "You died horrible, awful, disturbing deaths so we could have an army of Reapers rebuild out society and allow us to live in comfort and safety." Seriously?

 

[Angel4576]

A lot of people play the Citadel DLC, or at least the latter half of the Citadel DLC, as post-ending content.

Of course if you're on PC then the ideal end is MEHEM > Citadel Party.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

A lot of people play the Citadel DLC, or at least the latter half of the Citadel DLC, as post-ending content.

Of course if you're on PC then the ideal end is MEHEM > Citadel Party.

In my own personal canon, it ends with MEHEM, then the Citadel Party, then Mickey Mouse Castle of Illusion.

 

[Angel4576]

A lot of people play the Citadel DLC, or at least the latter half of the Citadel DLC, as post-ending content.

Of course if you're on PC then the ideal end is MEHEM > Citadel Party.

In my own personal canon, it ends with MEHEM, then the Citadel Party, then Mickey Mouse Castle of Illusion.

Whoa! If Disney ending's your thing then just pick synthesis.....everyone lives happily ever after.....thanks to space magic......

 

[Reverend]

The reapers weren't evil, they were amoral. They did what they did because it was a means to an end. They are no more evil than a forest fire, an asteroid strike or a supernova. Indeed, all those things can bring great destruction and death, but can also bring renewal and the promise of new life, just as the reapers did. I still destroyed the buggers though.

I have actually picked the other options--synthesis for my full paragon sentinel & control for my *barely* paragade infiltrator. Partly because it suits their personalities (what they would choose) but it's mostly for the sake of variety and I have the tiniest lingering hope that the legend savefile will be worth holding onto for future games....and because seeing EDI hug Traynor is hot.

I don't know, I just don't see it being the Batarians. They're like humans, but farther back, so why wouldn't it just have been humans from the start.

My reasoning was just process of elimination. We know they didn't focus on humans until *after* ME1, so they must have had someone else in mind. From what Harbinger says, Asari, Turians, Salarians, Drell, Krogan, Quarians and Geth (obviously!) aren't suitable for a variety of reasons. That leaves Volus, Hanar, Elcor, Vorcha and Batarians. Of those, Batarians appear to be the only ones even vaguely close to humans. Granted, there are in theory dozens of other minor independent races out in the terminus systems, but they would seem to be unlikely candidates.

 

[Angel4576]

I would agree that out of the remaining candidate races, it would seem like Batarians are the most obvious, but what they have that the Asari, Turians, Salarians etc don't, I'm not sure.

I think, if it really were the Batarians then I could only conclude that this must have been a pretty slow cycle. The Batarians must be the best of a bad bunch!

 

[Reverend]

Funny you should say that, because I think it *was* something of a slow cycle. I mean just compare the level of technology the Protheans achieved before the Reapers arrived and what the council races had at the same stage. Not just technology, but exploration too as the Protheans were much more widespread. They also had a single united government, whereas Citadel space isn't governed centrally, but co-operatively through the council and even then about half the inhabited galaxy it made up of independent or rogue states like the Batarians or the terminus systems.

Don't know if this is the intent, but my theory is that the Asari (unintentionally?) held back this cycle. Their long life span makes them a lot slower to institute change or adapt to new circumstances and their preference to mate with other races may have engendered an almost instinctual compulsion to act through proxies. This is pretty evident in how they reacted to the Rachni wars, the Krogan rebellions, the Geth/Quarian conflict, the arrival of the humans and their headbutting with the Batarians over colony rights.

In each case, rather than meet events head-on they try to distance themselves from any conflict and where that's inevitable, they tend to get other races to do a lot of the dirty work. A reliance on diplomacy over aggression sounds nice, but the Asari take their passivity almost to the point of total indolence. It's almost as if their ancestors' first instinct was to sit perfectly still and wait and see if they can just outlive the big scary predator that just crept in the cave-mouth.

 

[Angel4576]

Funny you should say that, because I think it *was* something of a slow cycle. I mean just compare the level of technology the Protheans achieved before the Reapers arrived and what the council races had at the same stage. Not just technology, but exploration too as the Protheans were much more widespread. They also had a single united government, whereas Citadel space isn't governed centrally, but co-operatively through the council and even then about half the inhabited galaxy it made up of independent or rogue states like the Batarians or the terminus systems.

Don't know if this is the intent, but my theory is that the Asari (unintentionally?) held back this cycle. Their long life span makes them a lot slower to institute change or adapt to new circumstances and their preference to mate with other races may have engendered an almost instinctual compulsion to act through proxies. This is pretty evident in how they reacted to the Rachni wars, the Krogan rebellions, the Geth/Quarian conflict, the arrival of the humans and their headbutting with the Batarians over colony rights.

In each case, rather than meet events head-on they try to distance themselves from any conflict and where that's inevitable, they tend to get other races to do a lot of the dirty work. A reliance on diplomacy over aggression sounds nice, but the Asari take their passivity almost to the point of total indolence. It's almost as if their ancestors' first instinct was to sit perfectly still and wait and see if they can just outlive the big scary predator that just crept in the cave-mouth.

Interesting. No wonder Javik was disappointed when he was awoken. Given that the Protheans effectively gifted the Asari their advantage in this cycle, firstly through Athame, and then later Vendetta.

Thing is though, as much as this limited the technological development of the cycle (because the Asari hoarded the knowledge for themselves), it also probably enabled this cycle to develop unlike the Prothean one before it, and also the Leviathan cycle at the beginning, where one race ruled the galaxy. By advancing the Asari, and given their nature, a more cosmopolitan galaxy emerged.

Also impacts on the earlier point I guess about which race the Reapers were planning on liquidizing. In (some at least) other cycles there was one predominant race, making the decision fairly easy. This time around however, they had to choose between a much greater number of lesser-developed races.

Perhaps this was why the Asari were ruled out as candidates - because they'd been heavily influenced by the Protheans.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

I have actually picked the other options--synthesis for my full paragon sentinel & control for my *barely* paragade infiltrator

I went all funny when I played ME3 and dumped my renegade attitude from the first two games. Choosing to go full paragon made the synthesis route seem more appropriate.

I downloaded the extended ending DLC (and that was extended? Did PC players just get dumped to a DOS prompt after making their choice?) and went for the none of the above at first. I didn't realise there was a post credits scene giving that a thumbs up either.

 

[Angel4576]

The extended cut adds;

- The Normandy Evac at the end of the beam run
- The memorial wall scene
- The slideshow
- Think it might have added a bit to the talk with the starbrat as well but can't quite remember
- Oh, and of course it added the 'refuse' ending....

Probably more that I'm forgetting as well.

 

[ATimson]

- Think it might have added a bit to the talk with the starbrat as well but can't quite remember

Yes, it did - it went into more details on the options (like why Destroy couldn't destroy just the Reapers).

 

[RyuRoots]

I have actually picked the other options--synthesis for my full paragon sentinel & control for my *barely* paragade infiltrator

I went all funny when I played ME3 and dumped my renegade attitude from the first two games. Choosing to go full paragon made the synthesis route seem more appropriate.

I downloaded the extended ending DLC (and that was extended? Did PC players just get dumped to a DOS prompt after making their choice?) and went for the none of the above at first. I didn't realise there was a post credits scene giving that a thumbs up either.

As someone who plays full paragon, it baffles me how that abomination and a paragon playstyle could have anything in common. And EC has some new stuff, but frankly none of it is worth the HDD space it takes up. You get more inane circular logic from starbrat, a hilariously stupid scene with the Normandy during the beam run (which also replaces your sudden getting blasted with a drawn-out cutscene, ruining one of the few good moments in London), and some slides.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

As someone who plays full paragon, it baffles me how that abomination and a paragon playstyle could have anything in common

But everyone got along! The look on that husk's face when he realised he could go play with the human beings he once was himself!

 

[Angel4576]

Synthesis -

But seriously.....

 

[TheGodBen]

I've been avoiding this thread since Leviathan came out because the ending controversy had soured me on Mass Effect and I just didn't feel like playing any of the DLC. But the time away from the games was good for me as when Mass Effect was brought up in TNZ recently I found myself enthusing about the franchise, and that was around the time that Citadel came out to a positive reception. So I bit the bullet, purchased the DLC and have been playing through them over the last few weeks.

Leviathan: This one was pretty good, it added to the backstory of the Reapers, had a good variety of locations, and some interesting gameplay twists. I don't like how a major element of the lore is limited to a DLC as the consequences of what Shepard discovered should have a lasting impact on the galaxy, but the rest of the game has to ignore it. I also don't like that the combat sections created difficulty by constantly throwing banshees and brutes at me. Otherwise, this was the first time that the Reaper backstory had any kind of appeal for me, even if just for a moment.

Omega: This DLC was okay, but largely pointless. Honestly, I wish it had been cheaper and shorter because all it does is add one long linear mission in a red/brown setting. At least there's some new enemies, and a female Turian, and revisiting Afterlife was neat, although it lacks the amazing atmosphere it had in ME2. The lack of squadmates was also a bummer, especially considering how good Leviathan (and, later, Citadel) was in that regard. Overall, I'm glad I got this along with the other two DLCs, that way I justified paying for it as part of an expansion pack, I would probably have been disappointed if I had purchased it on its own.

Citadel: Superb. I went into this one expecting a humdrum action plot with a party for the cast at the end, but it exceeded all my expectations. The plot is silly, but that works in its favour, while the sections in the Citadel archives were a cool way to reflect on the series' lore without getting bogged down in anything serious. After the story finished, I wasn't expecting the new hub on the Citadel, nor the functional arena, arcade, and casino that comes with it. The party and the crew interactions were the icing on an already satisfying cake. Overall, it was a ridiculous yet fitting send-off to one of my favourite fictional universes.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ Nice.

I played LotSB last night again as part of my trilogy play through. It's testament to the Citadel DLC that I hold it in an even higher regard than Shadow Broker. Like you said, it helps not to take Citadel overly serious. Once you're ok with that then the rest of the DLC is an absolute delight. It strikes exactly the right level of self-reference and in-jokes. I can see that it might be too much for some, especially if you're a latecomer to the series, but as someone who's been there since the beginning, I absolutely loved every second of it.

I'm not going to lie, I detest the ending. If that had been my enduring memory of ME then I'd have been incredibly disappointed. Luckily, the Citadel DLC gives the series a meta-closure that the ending to the game just didn't provide. Not to me at least.

I doubt that I'll continue with ME beyond ME3 - I've yet to hear a single decent idea about what the next game should be, and in truth they're going to have a hell of a job on their hands to come up with a better set of characters. Plus with production moving from the Edmonton to Montreal team, I'm really not convinced that they'll knock it out of the park. They've done well with the MP aspect of ME3, but Omega was their attempt at SP storyline - as you've already discovered it was fairly plot-lite.

That's not to say that I'm done with ME though. I'm sure that I'll be going back for a few play throughs yet.

I'm also looking forward to seeing what Edmonton's new IP is.