Mass Effect 3

[Reverend]

The problem with that idea is that it's not universal for all Shepards. Aside from practical concerns like it doubling the memory budget by having to record the dialogue twice, what if you're playing a full on renegade that doesn't feel at all bad about the loss of Kaiden (I know I didn't!) It also risks alienating anyone who hasn't played the previous games as they'll have no clue who that person is, nor why they should care. Plus of course this would place that particular character's death as "important" over and above anyone else who may have died since in ME2 & earlier in ME3, which again is not universal to all Shepards.

They spent a lot of time in the game establishing the recurring dream and what it means to Shepard. The kid is just a symbol. Indeed, after one of the dreams (the second one I think?) Shepard can tell Liara that she was thinking about whomever died on Virmire.

If you're a Renegade who doesn't feel bad about killing Kaiden, why would you care about a kid you have absolutely no connection with? If Shepard is worried about humans dying on Earth, why wouldn't she care about deaths among her own crew?

Because no version of Shepard is a total socio-path? Like I said, there a difference between letting a comrade "die with honour for the cause" and watching a civilian get murdered.

I mentioned 'Schindler's List' before and IIRC that girl in the red coat is supposedly based on a real recollection of the events. Why amongst the piles and piles of bodies did that one suddenly mean more? It didn't really, it's just something amidst all the horror that can jump out and can stay with a person forever.

Had Shepard not see and spoken to the child then he might not have made such an impression when he died. Indeed, Shepard probably wouldn't have picked him out of the crowd before his shuttle blew up.

It's not a logical thing, it's an emotional thing.

Kaiden/Ashley work precisely because it's the first "major" choice the franchise forces you to make. You can get out of killing Wrex, but you are forced into a no-win scenario that even Kirk couldn't worm his way out of on his best day, so it's something that's universal to all people who have played the three games.

No that's precisely why it wouldn't work. The dreams aren't about no-win scenarios, tactical decisions, sacrifices made in the line of duty or even personal loss. It's about guilt, it's about helplessness, it's about responsibility and fear at a very deep, almost primordial level. It's not about people that *have* died but people that *are* dying right at that moment and are still dying because Shepard can't do anything to stop it.

The boy only says two things: "everyone's dying!" & "you can't help me."

*That* is what's plaguing Shepard's subconscious. Not the words, or the messenger but the basic truth. Everyone is dying and you can't help them. I'm sure I don't have to explain the symbolism of being lost in the woods, whispers of the dead or the ever increasing number of shadowy figures.

Replacing all that with just Ash or Kaiden would utterly cheapen it and wouldn't provide anything in the way of emotional depth to Shepard's story.

As for new players? I don't think they would care about the story anyway.

No game designer worth their salt would ever approach an RPG with *that* attitude and I'm glad they didn't in this case. If they player doesn't care then *make* them care!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Probably a similar syste for the name plaque scene...

Which brings me to my next question.

Finished the Synthesis ending and saw Liara giving Shepard's eulogy... why is Talitha's name on the Normandy's memorial plaque? I didn't even know she was dead, let alone on Normandy's squad.

Or is was there another unmentioned Talitha on the original Normandy and we just didn't know that for some reason?

 

[Skywalker]

Talitha Draven is one of the names on the dog tags Shepard picks up during the Normandy Crash Site mission in ME2. That's where most of the other names came from, too.

 

[Reverend]

^And judging by where you find her tag, she's was probably that Ensign sat by Joker; the one killed by an explosion just after Pressly.

 

[Skywalker]

So I just beat the game again (only for the second time, though). My God, how can anyone ever choose anything but Destroy? I don't even care that you supposedly kill EDI and the geth that way. It's far easier to ignore that and enjoy the rest of the ending than it is to choose an ending you don't want just because of some stupid BS complication BioWare added so that people would choose their "ideal" ending.

The only other time I'll choose something different is with my pure Renegade, who'll pick Control and rule the galaxy!

 

[Evil Twin]

...because I didn't spend all that time turning the Geth into sentient beings and convincing them to peacefully coexist with the Quarians and rebuild Rannoch only to go and wipe them all out. Nope, not gonna happen. I go synthesis every time. It ends the cycle once and for all, life in the galaxy ascends to its next stage of evolution, and everyone lives happily ever after. I think ya'll just can't get over the glowy green eyes.

 

[Skywalker]

Psh, they don't get wiped out. I don't know what you're talking about. Destroy ends the cycle once and for all, life in the galaxy is free to evolve in the manner evolution actually works, and everyone lives happily ever after without being forced to look like green glowy freaks.

 

[Reverend]

So I just beat the game again (only for the second time, though). My God, how can anyone ever choose anything but Destroy? I don't even care that you supposedly kill EDI and the geth that way. It's far easier to ignore that and enjoy the rest of the ending than it is to choose an ending you don't want just because of some stupid BS complication BioWare added so that people would choose their "ideal" ending.

The only other time I'll choose something different is with my pure Renegade, who'll pick Control and rule the galaxy!

Although I do still favour destroy (and I agree is "drawback" is bollocks), I really wish the EC would have shown the consequences to the other synthetics. A brief scene where EDI drops dead as the wave hits and just slumps over in the co-pilot seat right next to Joker would have worked. Some shots of Geth platforms dropping dead should have been in there too.

 

[RyuRoots]

Psh, they don't get wiped out. I don't know what you're talking about. Destroy ends the cycle once and for all, life in the galaxy is free to evolve in the manner evolution actually works, and everyone lives happily ever after without being forced to look like green glowy freaks.

Exactly. GEE, THE LEADER OF THE MACHINES I HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR THE LAST 3 GAMES TRIES TO CONVINCE ME THAT KILLING HIM AND ALL HIS GOONS WON'T SOLVE MY PROBLEM EVEN WHEN THEY'RE THE DIRECT CAUSE OF THE CYCLE. Yeah, I'm sure that has a frigging ton of merit to it.

They're all bile space magic-fueled silliness, but Destroy is the least horrendous of the lot and the only one that actually accomplishes your goal.

 

[firehawk12]

No that's precisely why it wouldn't work. The dreams aren't about no-win scenarios, tactical decisions, sacrifices made in the line of duty or even personal loss. It's about guilt, it's about helplessness, it's about responsibility and fear at a very deep, almost primordial level. It's not about people that *have* died but people that *are* dying right at that moment and are still dying because Shepard can't do anything to stop it.

The boy only says two things: "everyone's dying!" & "you can't help me."

*That* is what's plaguing Shepard's subconscious. Not the words, or the messenger but the basic truth. Everyone is dying and you can't help them. I'm sure I don't have to explain the symbolism of being lost in the woods, whispers of the dead or the ever increasing number of shadowy figures.

You could bring up Schlinder's List, but they had kids that were murdered in the Star Wars prequel as well and in that movie it was just laughable.

Maybe the idea would have been good if human beings were human beings in the universe, but outside of watching NPCs standing around on the Citadel, there's no real connection that the player to these newly introduced characters.

When the game tells you that millions of humans are being harvested by the Reapers everyday and you're off having coffee with Liara at the cafe or shooting beer cans with Garrus, there's already a disconnect. Forcing this new narrative element onto the player in the third game - especially when she has already seen two human colonies (Eden Prime and Horizon) wiped out and basically brushed it off, it just seems awkwardly written at best.

How we react to the story is subjective, of course, but in two of the three origin stories that you can pick, Shepard has had a horrible life. In my version, she survived a bunch of slavers wiping out her friends and family - you'd think that would be more traumatic to her than seeing some random kid wiped out, yes?

But sure, I understand that they're not going to go back and actually flesh out those origin stories. She's not going to have nightmares about her dead family because only a certain number of people will have picked that origin story. They were meant to just give stat boosts to your character in ME1 (Spacer = Paragon, Earthborne = Renegade, Colonist = both), but it's just an example of how they just missed all these small things that they allow the player to choose throughout three games.

 

[ATimson]

But sure, I understand that they're not going to go back and actually flesh out those origin stories. She's not going to have nightmares about her dead family because only a certain number of people will have picked that origin story. They were meant to just give stat boosts to your character in ME1 (Spacer = Paragon, Earthborne = Renegade, Colonist = both), but it's just an example of how they just missed all these small things that they allow the player to choose throughout three games.

There was also a unique quest & other dialogue changes in ME1 depending on your origin. Pretty sure that got dropped by ME2, though.

 

[Reverend]

^There were corresponding emails, but that's about it. Thankfully ME3 made more use of both the origins and the career history stuff. But yeah, using those for the dreams did actually occur to me (I think I even posted it in this very thread a few months back) but realistically speaking, while a nice idea it would have been expensive in terms of memory and assets. Also a bit awkward to pull off if a player picks 'Spacer' & 'War Hero'. I mean where's the crippling emotional scars in that combination? Conversely, 'Colonist' & 'Sole Survivor' might be a but too much.

 

[Evil Twin]

When the game tells you that millions of humans are being harvested by the Reapers everyday and you're off having coffee with Liara at the cafe or shooting beer cans with Garrus, there's already a disconnect. Forcing this new narrative element onto the player in the third game - especially when she has already seen two human colonies (Eden Prime and Horizon) wiped out and basically brushed it off, it just seems awkwardly written at best.

I wonder how many humans died while I stood there listening to the Blasto 6: Partners in Crime billboard in its entirety.

 

[RyuRoots]

When the game tells you that millions of humans are being harvested by the Reapers everyday and you're off having coffee with Liara at the cafe or shooting beer cans with Garrus, there's already a disconnect. Forcing this new narrative element onto the player in the third game - especially when she has already seen two human colonies (Eden Prime and Horizon) wiped out and basically brushed it off, it just seems awkwardly written at best.

I wonder how many humans died while I stood there listening to the Blasto 6: Partners in Crime billboard in its entirety.

It's an RPG staple! You can spend hours arcade snowboarding while you should be heading to North Crater, searching for nuka-cola while the Enclave is gathering forces, etc. etc. It's weird, amusing, and I've honestly gotten kind of used to it.

 

[firehawk12]

There was also a unique quest & other dialogue changes in ME1 depending on your origin. Pretty sure that got dropped by ME2, though.

Yeah, each origin story got their own quest in ME1, but that became irrelevant by 2.

^There were corresponding emails, but that's about it. Thankfully ME3 made more use of both the origins and the career history stuff. But yeah, using those for the dreams did actually occur to me (I think I even posted it in this very thread a few months back) but realistically speaking, while a nice idea it would have been expensive in terms of memory and assets. Also a bit awkward to pull off if a player picks 'Spacer' & 'War Hero'. I mean where's the crippling emotional scars in that combination? Conversely, 'Colonist' & 'Sole Survivor' might be a but too much.

And yes, the emails!

It's funny though, because if you choose Spacer, you basically had a peaceful upbringing and your mom (or dad?) is an admiral in the fleet. I *think* that comes up in ME3, and you're given an opportunity to ask if they're okay after the attack on Earth, but I could be making that up.

Either way, the lesson is that they probably shouldn't have overpromised on the impact that the player had over their Shepard's character arc... because ultimately, shoehorning in one story to fit all players is just going to leave some people disappointed.

When the game tells you that millions of humans are being harvested by the Reapers everyday and you're off having coffee with Liara at the cafe or shooting beer cans with Garrus, there's already a disconnect. Forcing this new narrative element onto the player in the third game - especially when she has already seen two human colonies (Eden Prime and Horizon) wiped out and basically brushed it off, it just seems awkwardly written at best.

I wonder how many humans died while I stood there listening to the Blasto 6: Partners in Crime billboard in its entirety.

It's an RPG staple! You can spend hours arcade snowboarding while you should be heading to North Crater, searching for nuka-cola while the Enclave is gathering forces, etc. etc. It's weird, amusing, and I've honestly gotten kind of used to it.

Well, yeah, there's some suspension of disbelief of course.

It was funny how they had to insert scenes that basically told the player that the best course of action was to hang out at the Citadel because you need to gather the support of the other races.

(While on the other hand you are a creepy stalker who eavesdrops on people's conversations in order to start fetch quests!)

 

[RyuRoots]

But you are a creepy stalker who gets the job done. I think my favorite is the kakliosaur fossil, since it's just funny to think about the prospect of someone you've never met just handing you the key to re-enacting John Hammond's plans and running off as quickly as she (or he) came.

 

[eastman23]

A couple webcomics cover Shepard's... um... eavesdropping quest gathering ability:

http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=042312

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=313

 

[PsychoPere]

It's funny though, because if you choose Spacer, you basically had a peaceful upbringing and your mom (or dad?) is an admiral in the fleet. I *think* that comes up in ME3, and you're given an opportunity to ask if they're okay after the attack on Earth, but I could be making that up.

After Rannoch, Hackett tells you that Hannah Shepard has been located, recruited for the Crucible project, and promoted to Rear Admiral.

And I just realized that, even though I'm pretty sure one of my Sheps had a Spacer background, I never went through the Spacer quest in ME1...

 

[Evil Twin]

A couple webcomics cover Shepard's... um... eavesdropping quest gathering ability:

http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=042312

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=313

Oh man, the second one had me in tears...

And I just realized that, even though I'm pretty sure one of my Sheps had a Spacer background, I never went through the Spacer quest in ME1...

Not surprising since it's in that damn connecting hallway between the Presidium and the Wards that's only reachable via elevators. Not really easy to just stumble across once you're able to swift travel everywhere and can just bypass that place.

 

[eastman23]

It's funny though, because if you choose Spacer, you basically had a peaceful upbringing and your mom (or dad?) is an admiral in the fleet. I *think* that comes up in ME3, and you're given an opportunity to ask if they're okay after the attack on Earth, but I could be making that up.

After Rannoch, Hackett tells you that Hannah Shepard has been located, recruited for the Crucible project, and promoted to Rear Admiral.

And I just realized that, even though I'm pretty sure one of my Sheps had a Spacer background, I never went through the Spacer quest in ME1...

I did that one in my 2nd playthrough, but I missed the Earthborn quest with my first Shepard.