Mass Effect 3

[TheGodBen]

That's true.
Yet it's not equivalent to testimony. It's discrediting the witness and it often doesn't lead to reasonable doubt in favor of convictions.

It does discredit the testimony if you can show that the one testifying is biased in some way. If you put a self-declared Nazi on the stand and ask them to describe Jewish people, it wont be flattering, and you can't say that it is an objective truth.

Sovereign has a bias against organic life, it's trying to kill us, so why should I trust it to tell the truth about us?

1-Nazi Germany would have the considerable burden of proving their race was pure to being with.

Exactly! That's my point. Sovereign can claim that the Reapers are god-like and that organic life is an accident as much as it wants, but if it doesn't provide evidence for it's claims then why would you believe it?

I'm afraid belief describes a state of mind that is irrelevant to having evidence or not, according to the definition. Any cognitive content held as true. You're speaking of a philosophy.

Well okay, I wont get into the philosphical distinction between belief and knowledge as that's beside the point, and it was my mistake in swerving off the path like that.

However, the point was that you believe Sovereign is telling the truth and I believe it is not. Without evidence to support either of our positions, you can't claim that your position is more valid than my position, and vice versa. At least, that was the way things used to be, ME2 has now provided some evidence that the Reapers have their origins in organic life, which suggests that Sovereign wasn't telling the whole truth in ME1.

If you want to continue to believe Sovereign and claim that ME2 contradicts ME1, there's nothing I can do to stop you, but I hope that you can see now why I don't see any contradictions as I didn't believe Sovereign's claims in the first place.

 

[Saquist]

Asari biotics are not developed independent of exposure to element zero. That's impossible in the Mass Effect setting. It's more likely that Thessia, the asari homeworld, has element zero in its planetary makeup (in addition to the standard stuff like iron, nickel, etc.), exposing all life on Thessia--including the asari--to element zero and thus giving them biotic abilities. That means asari probably even have a little element zero in their own bodies, similar to how humans have iron in theirs.

Even though the focus seems to be element zero, manipulation of dark energy is the ability that is natural to the asari.

It doesn't discount your theory...but there maybe more than one way to reach that ability to manipulate dark energy than just element zero exposure.

Exactly! That's my point. Sovereign can claim that the Reapers are god-like and that organic life is an accident as much as it wants, but if it doesn't provide evidence for it's claims then why would you believe it?

You miss my point. My fault perhaps. We knew even back then that there was no such thing as a pure race. That was a philosophy not a truth. We knew it as a false statement. We don't know if Sovereign's assertion are false, there is no common frame of reference from which to make that conclusion indirectly. What is needed is the direct opposition of fact and or self contradiction.

However, the point was that you believe Sovereign is telling the truth and I believe it is not. Without evidence to support either of our positions, you can't claim that your position is more valid than my position, and vice versa. At least, that was the way things used to be, ME2 has now provided some evidence that the Reapers have their origins in organic life, which suggests that Sovereign wasn't telling the whole truth in ME1.

That's not exactly accurate. I don't believe anything concerning the veracity of Sovereign's statements. As an objective observer I merely can't make the assertion that he is lying without cause. In other words I can't slander him. A judge can't baselessly decide who's telling the truth or whose lying. Testimony is treated as strongly as evidence but it can be overturned by evidence. It may present evidence in a different light or perspective. But evidence can definitely overrule testimony outright (if it's the right evidence)

1-On the one had we have witnesses (The Council) who say that the Sovereign Reaper was mere Geth tech. ME2. Further the debris field itself (of Sovereign) before the entire Fleet is reasonable proof of no biological components.

2-The second Reaper discovered by politically independent sources (Cerberus Research) discover no biological components. ME2

3-On the other hand Sovereign claims flesh is inferior decays an dies but they are eternal.

4-Shepard and EDI Identitfy (method unknown) that the Skeleton Machine is a Reaper and liquefied remains of humans are being used to fill it. (purpose unknown)

Sources 1-3 are consistent with one another.
Source 4 Contradicts sources 1-3

The evidence of both Reaper ships supports Sovereign's testimony that organic flesh is inferior and temporary. Source 4 is an exceedingly large plot hole in ME2 whether or not it's resolved in ME3.

 

[Skywalker]

Asari biotics are not developed independent of exposure to element zero. That's impossible in the Mass Effect setting. It's more likely that Thessia, the asari homeworld, has element zero in its planetary makeup (in addition to the standard stuff like iron, nickel, etc.), exposing all life on Thessia--including the asari--to element zero and thus giving them biotic abilities. That means asari probably even have a little element zero in their own bodies, similar to how humans have iron in theirs.

Even though the focus seems to be element zero, manipulation of dark energy is the ability that is natural to the asari.

It doesn't discount your theory...but there maybe more than one way to reach that ability to manipulate dark energy than just element zero exposure.

If the asari were able to manipulate dark energy through a manner differently than how humans, turians, krogan, etc., do it, then it would have been mentioned in the Codex somewhere. Until we hear otherwise, the only way possible for an organic species to actively manipulate dark energy is through physical exposure to element zero. There is zero evidence for the asari being able to use biotics in any other way.

 

[Saquist]

If the asari were able to manipulate dark energy through a manner differently than how humans, turians, krogan, etc., do it, then it would have been mentioned in the Codex somewhere. Until we hear otherwise, the only way possible for an organic species to actively manipulate dark energy is through physical exposure to element zero. There is zero evidence for the asari being able to use biotics in any other way.

They do say it.
They say it's natural...no exposure is mentioned in the codex.
That's different from how the other races, turian, humans and krogan gain the ability.

 

[Skywalker]

Right. Because humans, turians, and krogans don't have any element zero on their world, they didn't develop the ability naturally, and have to be exposed in-utero to gain it. Since there isn't any other known way of gaining biotics (yet), we have to assume the asari's homeworld has element zero in it, probably its core, to explain how they developed it naturally. There might be a different explanation in ME3, but until then, that's the best guess any of us can make.

Then again, we won't really know just how inconsistent the story of the Reapers may or may not be until ME3, either, so arguing about either case is kind of pointless at this stage.

 

[Saquist]

Right. Because humans, turians, and krogans don't have any element zero on their world, they didn't develop the ability naturally, and have to be exposed in-utero to gain it. Since there isn't any other known way of gaining biotics (yet), we have to assume the asari's homeworld has element zero in it, probably its core, to explain how they developed it naturally. There might be a different explanation in ME3, but until then, that's the best guess any of us can make.

Then again, we won't really know just how inconsistent the story of the Reapers may or may not be until ME3, either, so arguing about either case is kind of pointless at this stage.

Are you saying it's a known fact that there is element zero on the Asari Homeworld?

 

[Skywalker]

Are you reading every word of my posts, or only some of them?

I suggest you go over what I said again.

 

[Reverend]

You mean this thing? It's based on Sovereign's weapon. You know, the one that cut Alliance cruisers in half like they were made of paper?

Big ship destroy small ship: Sure it has the power.
Small ship destroy big ship: Now that's special.

If Fire power wasn't a factor then the only use for the Geth is Canon Fodder but clearly Sovereign couldn't handle the offensive requirements for destroying a whole fleet. His armament was at least limited in number. But there was no rapid fire from Sovereign. It's likely he wasn't a true offensive weapon at all. Perhaps he merely had Offensive weaponry.

Are you being intentionally dense or something? I really can't tell. The codex entry explicitly says that the gun is a scaled *down* version of the one Sovereign had. Meaning it's *less* powerful than the original Reaper version. Just because Sovereign didn't happen to have any bigger ships around to destroy is neither here nor there.

As for the Turians spotting it's approach; it's a bit hard to miss anything that size when it's in visual range...like when it went ramming through half the fleet.

Sovereign has a bias against organic life, it's trying to kill us, so why should I trust it to tell the truth about us?

While I understand the argument from an objective standpoint, I get the feeling that being a big, ancient and neigh incomprehensible as Reapers are above that kind of self delusion. I see it as being somewhat akin to the opposing Vorlon and Shadow ideologies from B5. Neither is "wrong" or even biased, it's just a point of view that they've set on. Likewise the Reapers have concluded that their way of harvesting and "ascending" suitable races is the best way to perpetuate themselves. The fact that they've lasted so long means they're correct...though of course being correct doesn't mean they're nice about it.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Even though the focus seems to be element zero, manipulation of dark energy is the ability that is natural to the asari.

During melding, an asari consciously attunes her nervous system to her partner's, sending and receiving electrical impulses directly through the skin

Element Zero (Atomic Number 0, Chemical Symbol Ez), also known as 'eezo', is a substance that, when subjected to an electrical current, releases dark energy which can be manipulated into a mass effect field

It can be assumed, then, that the Asari would need the eezo in their bodies, regardless of whether or not their abilities are based on pure electrical charge manipulation, or more magical dark energy manipulation.

 

[PsychoPere]

On a related Mass Effect note, I finished reading the third novel, Retribution, earlier tonight. Anderson can still be a bit of a badass - I want him on my squad in ME3.

 

[Skywalker]

On a related Mass Effect note, I finished reading the third novel, Retribution, earlier tonight. Anderson can still be a bit of a badass - I want him on my squad in ME3.

There's another character introduced in Retribution that I hope will be in ME3 as an antagonist. I really want my Shepard to kill that bastard.

The Mass Effect novels are pretty decent, overall. They're not literary masterpieces or anything, but definitely readable. I'd also recommend David Gaider's Dragon Age novels, The Stolen Throne and The Calling.

 

[Jono]

Do the novels have any impact in the games, or at least ME2?

 

[-Brett-]

Do the novels have any impact in the games, or at least ME2?

Not really. The novels tie in to the games in some fun ways, but nothing of any particular substance.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Hide yo wife, hide yo kids, cause they reapin' everyone on Earth.

 

[Reverend]

Do the novels have any impact in the games, or at least ME2?

Yes and no. Yes the events in the books "happen" in the continuity of the games and some repercussions did creep into the games. For example, if you'll recall when you first encounter Tali in ME2 the other Quarians *really*don't like Cerberus and when you ask, Tali mentions an incident involving Cerberus going after a young human biotic girl hiding in the Migrant Fleet. That incident is the central plot to the novel 'Ascension'. You might also recall in ME1 Anderson had some prior history with Saren where he was almost the first human Spectre. That story is told 'Revelation'

While on the other hand, no, nothing in the books (aside from a few possible errors) can contradict anything you can do in the games. For example, although Shepard is mentioned a few time, the Commander's first name, gender or appearance is never mentioned.

Mostly though, they're separate but connected stories. One taking place decades prior, another between ME1 & 2 and another just after ME2. The main constant is that Anderson is prominently featured though not exactly the protagonist of all three.

 

[Jono]

They sound interesting, might have to hunt them down

 

[PsychoPere]

There's another character introduced in Retribution that I hope will be in ME3 as an antagonist. I really want my Shepard to kill that bastard.

Very much agreed.

I'd also recommend David Gaider's Dragon Age novels, The Stolen Throne and The Calling.

I've read those as well. Very enjoyable.

They sound interesting, might have to hunt them down

I'd say they're worth reading. They're not mind-blowing, but they are a lot of fun and offer perspectives on other events in the universe that you don't get from the games.

 

[bullethead]

They sound interesting, might have to hunt them down

Revelation is OK, but the other two are severely hampered by this Mary Sue character that Drew Karpyshn introduced in Revelation (where she wasn't too bad). You're better off looking up the summaries on the Mass Effect wiki than reading Ascension and Retribution.

 

[Blamo]

The best thing about Retribution is that it goes into detail about indoctrination (and it does add some additional nightmare fuel to it), shows a bit of how the Reapers think and once again reminds us how advanced Reaper tech is (especially the bit about quantum entanglement).

As for the female character being a Mary Sue, that's something she most certainly isn't, no matter which definition you use. She's just so bloody useless and is so easily tricked that the author lampshaded it in Retribution.

While the books aren't fantastic, they do a good job of expanding the Mass Effect Universe, with some element filtering back into the main story (the academy for example, which gets mentioned in the Overlord DLC).

 

[Saquist]

Are you being intentionally dense or something? I really can't tell. The codex entry explicitly says that the gun is a scaled *down* version of the one Sovereign had. Meaning it's *less* powerful than the original Reaper version. Just because Sovereign didn't happen to have any bigger ships around to destroy is neither here nor there.

I fail to to comprehend how prefacing you comments with an insult serves any purpose at all. I haven't committed the codex to memory.

As for the Turians spotting it's approach; it's a bit hard to miss anything that size when it's in visual range...like when it went ramming through half the fleet.

I don't believe that has any significant meaning.
If they had cloak or Stealth it would have been logical to use it to get to the station and let the Geth occupy the Citadel fleet.

Sovereign has a bias against organic life, it's trying to kill us, so why should I trust it to tell the truth about us?

While I understand the argument from an objective standpoint, I get the feeling that being a big, ancient and neigh incomprehensible as Reapers are above that kind of self delusion. I see it as being somewhat akin to the opposing Vorlon and Shadow ideologies from B5. Neither is "wrong" or even biased, it's just a point of view that they've set on. Likewise the Reapers have concluded that their way of harvesting and "ascending" suitable races is the best way to perpetuate themselves. The fact that they've lasted so long means they're correct...though of course being correct doesn't mean they're nice about it.[/QUOTE]

Even though the focus seems to be element zero, manipulation of dark energy is the ability that is natural to the asari.

During melding, an asari consciously attunes her nervous system to her partner's, sending and receiving electrical impulses directly through the skin

Element Zero (Atomic Number 0, Chemical Symbol Ez), also known as 'eezo', is a substance that, when subjected to an electrical current, releases dark energy which can be manipulated into a mass effect field

It can be assumed, then, that the Asari would need the eezo in their bodies, regardless of whether or not their abilities are based on pure electrical charge manipulation, or more magical dark energy manipulation.

Are you reading every word of my posts, or only some of them?

I suggest you go over what I said again.

Indeed. I thought you were offering answers and not merely your own speculations.

From the wiki...

All asari are natural biotics from birth (see below), though not all choose to develop their abilities. Biotics of other species, such as humans, are individuals who were exposed to dust-form element zero ('eezo') in utero and, beating the odds, developed eezo nodules throughout their nervous system. The natural electrical impulses in the body can create mass effect fields from these nodules, producing the effects seen as biotic abilities.

Your assumptions are fine as speculation goes but the asari aren't in the category of using eezo modules. They are out side the "Other Species" group made in the codex signifying that some other method is at work. I did look up Bio amps and it does seem to support your asari element zero theory but it's not specific enough to be for sure.