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Mass Effect 3 $$(ENDINGS SPOILERS)$$

Cart before the horse. Javik said the attack happened *because* they were betrayed by indoctrinated agents, not the other way around. The whole facility on Eden Prime was supposed to be a well kept secret. Indeed, how else could they ever hope to wait out the reaper invasion in stasis unless they were sure the facility was well hidden?

So like I said. Plot hole.
According to the codex, Indoctrination uses infrasound and EM manipulation of the brain, so it's highly likely that there's no easily detectable signs of indoctrination. Hell, Rana Theropis manages to go through two and a half games (IIRC) before being revealed as an indoctrinated agent. So it's possible that there is no way to detect indoctrinated agents, especially if they aren't directly involved in a project.

Except there *is* and it was directly inferred on two separate occasions by two separate prothean VI's.

Vigil says to Shepard on Ilos: "I do not sense the taint of indoctrination upon any of you, unlike the other that passed recently."

And then in ME3, just before Kai Leng shows up on Thessia, Vendetta says: "Indoctrinated presence detected. Activating security protocol."

QED.


In other news, it looks like the data miners have found more cut ME3 dialogue buried in the game's files. Interestingly enough, these ones are from Grunt, Jacob, Zaeed and Jack and sound as if they were supposed to be present and involved in the final mission in London. More evidence the ending was rushed and unfinished, no?

Also, someone noticed (and I've checked this for myself) that if you look at the game's file names, you can quite easily see that even Bioware labelled the endings by colour. The files for the various ending cutscenes are named "red, green and blue." Ouch.
 
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I would add two items to this discussion.

The first is that when I think of indoctrination I am reminded of an actual medical practice used to treat those with mental illness. It's called transcranial magnetic stimulation. Studies have proven that people's morality will change when exposed to this procedure.

Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation

The second is a snapshot of the game's directory which shows the files for the three endings.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2edp2xc.png
 
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I'm not entirely sure why people are sending that screenshot around, what they're trying to argue with it.

And here's Producer Mike Gamble's response:
Mike Gamble said:
you're making assumptions. We did not label the endings as you imply.

I'm not trying to argue away anything. Yes, we use file names. Those ones refer to pre-rendered parts. Nothing else.
 
After digesting the game for a while and reading the posts here, two things sprang to mind.

1. Why don't the Reapers guard the Mass Relays? They've got Reapers to spare in patrolling the systems, why not have some stationed near a relay to prevent ships from using it and ambush ships that are coming into the system?

2. Of all the folks we bring in on the Crucible project, how is it that everyone involved wasn't indoctrinated? We're not dealing with a cut off group of scientists who were so secret that not even the Reapers knew about them. We're sending people straight to the Crucible who we just met on the battle field fighting Reapers!

3. I cannot believe no one even considered the crucible to be a trap. We find this piece of Prothean technology that we don't know how it works, but we're going to use it anyways. Sounds exactly like how the galaxy used the Citadel, doesn't it? Not only did the whole galaxy believe that the Protheans built it, we also didn't fully understand what it did. But what makes this worse is that it wasn't a trap. It was exactly what they said it was.... AND MORE! How in the goddess' name did the Reapers not know about it? Did the other cycle's species just blow it and themselves up when it wouldn't work? How did they hide the data from the Reapers? There is no reason why the Crucible shouldn't have been a trap.
 
The most obvious one is of course Aria and retaking Omega, except you're not taking Omega back from Cerberus, you're helping Aria fight off the initial invasion/blockade. So they basically recycled that story for the 'Invasion' comics, left Shepard out of it and threw in some weird looking husks...which were cut content also originally designed for the game.

There was supposed to be a mission with Emily Wong too. Something to do with undercover reporting, Cerberus infiltrating the wards and it's connections with Terra Prime. That would have been nice, no?

Javik's original recruitment mission is in there too, though from what I can discern, while the mission still took place on Eden Prime (not Mars as I'd previously suspected) it gave the impression of being a bit more involved and I think it was supposed to be in a more built up part of the colony. For one thing he was to be already be awake and killing Cerberus troopers when you find him.

In other news, it looks like the data miners have found more cut ME3 dialogue buried in the game's files. Interestingly enough, these ones are from Grunt, Jacob, Zaeed and Jack and sound as if they were supposed to be present and involved in the final mission in London.

That does indeed sound like stuff that woulda been very cool to have had in the final product. :techman:

At least we'll get the Aria stuff at some point, if somewhat reworked.

I'm not entirely sure why people are sending that screenshot around, what they're trying to argue with it.

And here's Producer Mike Gamble's response:
Mike Gamble said:
you're making assumptions. We did not label the endings as you imply.

I'm not trying to argue away anything. Yes, we use file names. Those ones refer to pre-rendered parts. Nothing else.

:techman:
 
"If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us."
-Stanley Woo, Quality Assurance Analyst

According to Webopedia, a label is a name. (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/L/label.html)

What is a name?
A sequence of one or more characters that uniquely identifies a file, variable, account, or other entity. Computer systems impose various rules about naming objects. For example, there is often a limit to the number of characters you can use, and not all characters are allowed.


Names are sometimes called identifiers. (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/N/name.html)


What is a file?
A collection of data or information that has a name, called the filename. Almost all information stored in a computer must be in a file. There are many different types of files: data files, test files, program files, directory files, and so on. Different types of files store different types of information. For example, program files store programs, whereas text files store text. (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/F/file.html)




Summary -

The fans label the endings red, blue, and green. Bioware responds that they haven't labeled their endings this way. Then, an enterprising fan checks the directory of files, and discovers that the endings are labeled red, green, and blue. This discovery disproves Bioware's statement, and this piece of information is added to the body of evidence that some fans have that the developer was being disingenuous with the fans.



As I have proven above, files are identified by names, and names are a type of label.



I would like to think that Mike Gamble, the Associate Producer, may be ignorant of this association between name and label. I am, however, dubious. Bioware has demonstrated repeatedly that they will say one thing while doing another thing. According to them, they didn't label their endings as a red ending, blue ending, or green ending, yet this is what they did. I see in Gamble's statement that he is being defensive, which is another character trait I am seeing from this developer in the past month.
 
throwback, do you have any idea just how utterly pretentious you always come off as? Just curious.

I'm not entirely sure why people are sending that screenshot around, what they're trying to argue with it.

And here's Producer Mike Gamble's response:
Mike Gamble said:
you're making assumptions. We did not label the endings as you imply.

I'm not trying to argue away anything. Yes, we use file names. Those ones refer to pre-rendered parts. Nothing else.

I don't disagree with Gamble, I mean they have to name their cutscene files something right? But their choice of name and the small number of files illustrates how truly limited and unvarying the endings were and with even Bioware referring to them internally as the 'blue', 'green' and 'red' endings it rather damages any kind of pretence they have left. I stand by my assessment that it's just more evidence that the game's main faults aren't down to incompetence, but a lack of time.

The most obvious one is of course Aria and retaking Omega, except you're not taking Omega back from Cerberus, you're helping Aria fight off the initial invasion/blockade. So they basically recycled that story for the 'Invasion' comics, left Shepard out of it and threw in some weird looking husks...which were cut content also originally designed for the game.

There was supposed to be a mission with Emily Wong too. Something to do with undercover reporting, Cerberus infiltrating the wards and it's connections with Terra Prime. That would have been nice, no?

Javik's original recruitment mission is in there too, though from what I can discern, while the mission still took place on Eden Prime (not Mars as I'd previously suspected) it gave the impression of being a bit more involved and I think it was supposed to be in a more built up part of the colony. For one thing he was to be already be awake and killing Cerberus troopers when you find him.

In other news, it looks like the data miners have found more cut ME3 dialogue buried in the game's files. Interestingly enough, these ones are from Grunt, Jacob, Zaeed and Jack and sound as if they were supposed to be present and involved in the final mission in London.

That does indeed sound like stuff that woulda been very cool to have had in the final product. :techman:

At least we'll get the Aria stuff at some point, if somewhat reworked.

I wouldn't be at all surprised. What makes me a bit cynical about the whole thing is that they did almost the exact same thing in ME2 with Liara. I think you can still find her cut dialogue on youtube that shows she was originally meant to become the new broker while still on Illium. There was even the possibility of her assistant surviving and not knowing Liara was her new boss...which is a very bizarre situation if you think about it.

On the other hand, what we ended up with in DLC for is doubtlessly far better and more expansive than any little side mission they could have squeezed into the game at launch...and yet the deliberateness of it still bothers me.
 
On the issue of the "cut" dialogue, Gamble also confirmed that it wasn't actually cut - they recorded all of that as a "just in case" situation.
Mike Gamble said:
We record a *lot* of extra VO. We don't use all of it, and by not using something- it doesn't mean there was content attached to it to cut.
 
Sure, Reverend. I like to think my writing as the result of a good education.

If I state that a label is the same as a name, another poster could say that I am mistaken. By presenting their definitions, I am preemptively addressing this charge.

Here are two videos by Smudboy about the ending. I think the videos are hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk&list=UUuUATqFj7zcWVc9zLbpNSjQ&index=1&feature=plcp

In the last video, I was laughing at the confusion that Bioware created by identifying those vehicles that fire the Thanix Missiles as a tank, truck, or a missile battery. Deja vu, USS Antares?

I disagree with you, Reverend, on your opinion of Bioware. I think they have demonstrated that they are incompetent writers. I have known of instances where scriptwriters are working under pressure and as their film is being filmed who can craft a great story. One of my favorite films is Casablanca. When filming began, the first half of the story was completed, and the writers were working on the second half during filming.
 
^So long as you're aware. ;)
On the issue of the "cut" dialogue, Gamble also confirmed that it wasn't actually cut - they recorded all of that as a "just in case" situation.
Mike Gamble said:
We record a *lot* of extra VO. We don't use all of it, and by not using something- it doesn't mean there was content attached to it to cut.

Well no, it means they dropped the scene(s) before they got to the stage of actually making/animating them.

They don't have their voice actors sitting in the booth spouting random dialogue on the off chance they might need Garrus to warn Shepard about the giant indoctrinated bananas. They record stuff like this because they have at least a vague idea of what they plan to do.

So whatever Gamble says, as some point they had the idea of some of your ME2 sqaudmates participating in the London mission. I don't know if they dropped this idea the day after they recorded it, or just before certification.

Actually, if I recall another recent tweet by Gamble explains (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) how dialogue is often the *last* thing they do in a scene, since they first need to get the timing and emotions right in the scene.
 
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Criticizing the ending, explaining its flaws and offering alternate ideas for how the game should have ended is fine.

"Take back Mass Effect", contacting the FCC, filing class-action lawsuits, renting billboards in protest and picketing Bioware OVER A FUCKING VIDEO GAME--those are fucking idiots with First World problems who don't have a sense of perspective.

here is some perspective, when a business fails to deliver the kind of product that the consumer was expecting based on what the business was promising to that consumer, then the consumer has every right to complain about it and try to get the business to address this.

Just because it is a video game, does not make it exempt. Bioware is a FUCKING Company. Why are they held above standards of trying to please its consumers.

No one is saying that Bioware needs to cave in to consumer demands, but the consumer has EVERY right to make demands.
 
Actually, if I recall another recent tweet by Gamble explains (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) how dialogue is often the *last* thing they do in a scene, since they first need to get the timing and emotions right in the scene.
There's this one where he says VO is not one of the last things they do because it's needed to be able to "get the timing, tone, and emotion in."
 
There's this one where he says VO is not one of the last things they do because it's needed to be able to "get the timing, tone, and emotion in."

LINK

There's your tone, your timing, and your emotion. I would much sooner listen to the awesome audio work from Turkish Star Wars.
 
Actually, if I recall another recent tweet by Gamble explains (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) how dialogue is often the *last* thing they do in a scene, since they first need to get the timing and emotions right in the scene.
There's this one where he says VO is not one of the last things they do because it's needed to be able to "get the timing, tone, and emotion in."

I stand corrected then, I must have misremembered.
Still, I stand by my reasoning that the mere existence of the dialogue means they originally intended the last mission to have a *lot* more variance and agency than it ended up having. Indeed, the best evidence for this is the London level as it stands. The more you examine it, the clearer it becomes just how rushed the whole thing was put together.
In fact, this....

There's this one where he says VO is not one of the last things they do because it's needed to be able to "get the timing, tone, and emotion in."

LINK

There's your tone, your timing, and your emotion. I would much sooner listen to the awesome audio work from Turkish Star Wars.
....is a pretty good example, no?

Make no mistake, these guys were under a serious time crunch and their ambitions far outreached their ability to deliver it on time. There's evidence of it *all over* the game and not just the bugs, glitches and the arse-pulled ending, it's in the sidequests, the GaW/EMS mechanics, the conversation (or lack thereof), the animations and in the way ALL of the main characters were treated. Seriously, Liara appears to be the only character they treated right, and even that was a bit ropey at times. I mean it was great to confirm the suspicions about who her father was, but the execution was a bit half hearted.

To me, the cut dialogue is emblematic of the many half formed, or poorly executed ideas the game clearly has:-
- An embedded reporter? Great idea, great potential. The result? An utterly pointless character who has ZERO impact on the story. The reason? Not enough time. Indeed, her poor integration makes me believe she was an 11th hour addition.

- Scanning planets for missions? Great in theory, but since all you can get out of it is credits, more pointless war assets, some fetch quest macguffin and *maybe* a 5% stat boost, then it's hardly worth it at all. I'm sure the intent was to have the mini N7 missions like in ME2. Traynor might tell you there's garbled reports of trouble in such-and-such a cluster/system. You go, scan the planets in the region, find the trouble spot and drop in for a mission. A good example would have been helping the elcor evacuate. Indeed, as it stand evacuating them with a probe is just down right stupid. However, an actual mission would require a level map, new assets (elcor soldiers anyone?) and of course some voice work. So again, great idea, lots of potential but not enough time.
 
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The crazy thing is they pushed the game's release date back by several months and there were still all kinds of problems. Maybe they should have gone for a Holiday 2012 release instead.
 
^Somehow I doubt EA would have allowed that. As it was I suspect the pushback was a concession and about as long as they were willing to wait. I mean can you imagine what state the game would have been in had they actually been forced to release it last Christmas? Indeed, my suspicion is a lot of this content was removed/cut back at the time the release was pushed back when the realised just how short on time they'd actually be.
 
Yeah, I'll bet you're right about that.

I just find it strange because the development time on ME3 was longer than ME2's, but ME2 was very polished and didn't have nearly as many issues. I know ME3 is a bigger game, but it didn't really seem that much bigger, IMO.
 
I just find it strange because the development time on ME3 was longer than ME2's, but ME2 was very polished and didn't have nearly as many issues.

I found ME3 very polished, didn't notice many bugs/glitches though clearly there was room for more content IMO for the story.
 
^As I pointed out a page or two back, yes, certain parts of it were very polished and well done, but if you take a step back you'll see the there are a *lot* of rough edges (just watch how Garrus walks & holds a gun in a mission and tell me honestly if *that* looks polihed.) Plus, as I explained, the bugs/glitches/unfinished animations/poor lipsyncing are only part of it. Many of the design decisions positively scream "we didn't have time to do it right!"

Indeed, that very incongruity says to me that they did the best they could and gave only certain key parts of the game the full treatment.
 
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