Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

I understand there's enough Weinstein's in show business and in general but honestly until i see hard proof of misconduct i will never believe anyone, especially if they claim to have proof but then fail to show it.

Except the benefit of the doubt should go both ways. When people make accusations, it's important to take those accusations seriously and investigate in good faith, rather than assuming they're lying. At the same time, the accused deserves the presumption of innocence and a vigorous defense if charges are filed. Giving one side the benefit of the doubt does not mean presuming the guilt of the other side. It shouldn't be about favoring either side based on belief; we should reserve judgment, stay objective, and let an investigation determine where the facts lie.

 

[Turtletrekker]

If he really did threaten to call ICE on the lady -- for any reason -- then none of the rest of it even matters to me. That's all I need to know.

 

[Christopher]

If he really did threaten to call ICE on the lady -- for any reason -- then none of the rest of it even matters to me. That's all I need to know.

Good grief, yes. Well, the rest still matters, but that alone would be damning, if true.

 

[FPAlpha]

Except the benefit of the doubt should go both ways. When people make accusations, it's important to take those accusations seriously and investigate in good faith, rather than assuming they're lying. At the same time, the accused deserves the presumption of innocence and a vigorous defense if charges are filed. Giving one side the benefit of the doubt does not mean presuming the guilt of the other side. It shouldn't be about favoring either side based on belief; we should reserve judgment, stay objective, and let an investigation determine where the facts lie.

Absolutely but until the accusing side shows proof ( especially if they claim they have it) i will disregard it and rule in favor of the accused. Standard law rules.

 

[Christopher]

Absolutely but until the accusing side shows proof ( especially if they claim they have it) i will disregard it and rule in favor of the accused. Standard law rules.

As I said, the law actually says that the accuser deserves the benefit of the doubt too -- because calling the accuser a liar is itself an accusation. When the accusation is made, it's the responsibility of the legal system to presume the accuser is innocent of lying and investigate diligently. If a suspect is charged, then it's the responsibility of the legal system to presume the accused innocent until proven guilty. As I said, presuming the innocence of one side does NOT mean presuming the guilt of the other. It means investigating without prejudice and letting the evidence decide.

And you are not a judge or a juror, you're just a spectator. It's not your place to "rule" one way or the other. And a snap judgment based on media hearsay is not a "ruling" of any kind, it's just an assumption. The whole reason we have a legal system is because it's wrong to jump to conclusions when other people's guilt is involved.

 

[FPAlpha]

As I said, the law actually says that the accuser deserves the benefit of the doubt too -- because calling the accuser a liar is itself an accusation. When the accusation is made, it's the responsibility of the legal system to presume the accuser is innocent of lying and investigate diligently. If a suspect is charged, then it's the responsibility of the legal system to presume the accused innocent until proven guilty. As I said, presuming the innocence of one side does NOT mean presuming the guilt of the other. It means investigating without prejudice and letting the evidence decide.

And you are not a judge or a juror, you're just a spectator. It's not your place to "rule" one way or the other. And a snap judgment based on media hearsay is not a "ruling" of any kind, it's just an assumption. The whole reason we have a legal system is because it's wrong to jump to conclusions when other people's guilt is involved.

I ruled it for myself, maybe that wasn't clear and i have chosen the wrong word. Nothing i said though contradicts you. Both sides have equal merit before the law but as long as the accuser does not provide proof i will presume the accused is innocent.

Social media though works differently - judgement is passed immediately without proof, camps are formed and reputations ruined without a shred of evidence and this is what drives me up the wall.

 

[Christopher]

Social media though works differently - judgement is passed immediately without proof, camps are formed and reputations ruined without a shred of evidence and this is what drives me up the wall.

That's true, but I don't think the famous, successful male celebrity is the one more likely to need our sympathy and support.

 

[Jayson1]

I will await to here what the courts say but of course even that doesn't solve everything. For a celebrity even if they are found innocent in courts doesn't mean they are found innocent in the court of public opinion. Which IMO is both basic human nature but also really shows on some level about how we are a society that really does not value the justice system. In the end we still make all our opinions basically on gut feelings that are often influenced by our political biases.

 

[camdudetenger2018]

They already have Kate ready to take over the name, and we've already gotten plenty of stuff with Clint, so recasting seems unnecessary to me. While I enjoyed Jeremy Renner as Clint and if he wasn't an asshole, I'd have no problem with more appearances, there's nothing left that really needs to be done with him. I don't remember exactly where they left him off at the end of Hawkeye Season 1, but I'm pretty sure from what little I do remember, that it would be as a good place to leave the character.

clint still should be in the avengers 5 but only scenes with his family

 

[JD]

Why? Why is she more believable than him, what's your factual basis for your opinion?

Unless i see hard proof ( such as blurred images of alleged nude pics or messages sent by him) and a court verifies they were sent from his phone it's just hearsay.

For me it's the fact that this is the second time accusations like this have come out about him. Once I'm willing the give the accused to benefit of the doubt, but once you get multiple accusations starting to build up the more believable they become to me.

I'm really getting sick of these character assassinations, especially online and in social media. Renner has been a fan favorite for a long time and just because some unknown makes harsh accusations suddenly he's out of favor and the worst person ever? And all of this without proof of course.

Just recently i had an argument with a friend of mine who's exactly that person - switches opinions as soon as social media turns on someone, especially if she wasn't a fan of that celebrity to begin with. Recently there was also a "controversy" between David Harbour and Milli Bobby Brown that she had a court order against him for alleged misconduct and my friend went ballistic because she really likes Harbour and she defended him come what may. I called her out on past behaviour where she was willing to throw someone else under the bus immediately when even a whiff of misonduct was brought up.

Well maybe if less people acted like assholes, people wouldn't be as quick to assume accusations of asshole behavior are true.
As for the stories about Millie Bobbie Brown and David Harbour, they seemed to be pretty friendly at the Stranger Things Season 5 premiere, so I have to wonder if those stories were possibly at least blown out of proportion. One of the Duffer Bros. addressed the story the other day, and I don't remember th exact wording, but the impression I got was that yes there were arguments and fights between the cast members at times, but that it was the typical kind of stuff you get when people spend as much time together as they have, and wasn't anything serious.

 

[theenglish]

That's true, but I don't think the famous, successful male celebrity is the one more likely to need our sympathy and support.

Why not? If that celebrity is innocent they're still going to have the same emotions as a non-celebrity, and they still suffer serious setbacks to their career. People are already saying that Renner should not return to the MCU.

 

[JD]

That may be true, but they won't have gone through anywhere near the amount of trauma that the potential victim would have if the accusations are true.

 

[FPAlpha]

For me it's the fact that this is the second time accusations like this have come out about him. Once I'm willing the give the accused to benefit of the doubt, but once you get multiple accusations starting to build up the more believable they become to me.

Well maybe if less people acted like assholes, people wouldn't be as quick to assume accusations of asshole behavior are true.
As for the stories about Millie Bobbie Brown and David Harbour, they seemed to be pretty friendly at the Stranger Things Season 5 premiere, so I have to wonder if those stories were possibly at least blown out of proportion. One of the Duffer Bros. addressed the story the other day, and I don't remember th exact wording, but the impression I got was that yes there were arguments and fights between the cast members at times, but that it was the typical kind of stuff you get when people spend as much time together as they have, and wasn't anything serious.

See that's exactly what i am talking about. Maybe Harbour did something wrong, maybe he made a risky joke that landed wrong and made Brown uncomfortable or as you said they are together for so long and so close a fight is almost inevitable but as with every storm it clears the air when it's gone and if neither party is the grudge holder type of person.

I figure the same can be applied with the Renner situation. It seems there was a one night stand involved and those are always a gamble if one side is not seeing it as such but a springboard for more. If that doesn't happen feelings get hurt and it can quickly escalate. So yes, unless she comes forward in an official capacity either through social media or if there is a lawsuit where she has to present her evidence ( nudes and text messages) i will disregard the allegations no matter how many people make them because in this day and age it seems it has become a sort of sport to cry foul and blow everything out of proportion when it comes to celebrities.

If you have evidence though like with Weinstein or Cosby then bury them for good.

 

[Christopher]

Why not? If that celebrity is innocent they're still going to have the same emotions as a non-celebrity, and they still suffer serious setbacks to their career.

It is hideous to imply that setbacks in a successful career are somehow a greater ordeal or more deserving of our sympathy than being sexually harassed or victimized. This kneejerk mentality of treating the more powerful person as the victim is exactly what perpetuates institutional misogyny and makes it so hard for victims to come forward. Given how any woman who has the courage to come forward is inevitably going to be subjected to this kind of kneejerk disbelief and condemnation, what possible incentive would anyone have to put herself through that if the charges weren't true?

 

[theenglish]

It is hideous to imply that setbacks in a successful career are somehow a greater ordeal or more deserving of our sympathy than being sexually harassed or victimized. This kneejerk mentality of treating the more powerful person as the victim is exactly what perpetuates institutional misogyny and makes it so hard for victims to come forward. Given how any woman who has the courage to come forward is inevitably going to be subjected to this kind of kneejerk disbelief and condemnation, what possible incentive would anyone have to put herself through that if the charges weren't true?

You can sympathize/empathize with two things at the same time. I wasn't saying anything about he alleged victim. I was reacting your previous statement which was about celebrities. Regardless, in any matter like this, the correct course of action is to remain neutral and refrain from judgment until more evidence comes to light.

See that's exactly what i am talking about. Maybe Harbour did something wrong, maybe he made a risky joke that landed wrong and made Brown uncomfortable or as you said they are together for so long and so close a fight is almost inevitable but as with every storm it clears the air when it's gone and if neither party is the grudge holder type of person.

This is a very odd report as Harbour has been singled out by Brown and other younger members of the cast as being a caring and supportive father figure in previous seasons. Maybe Harbour merely had trouble negotiating working with the now adult actors rather than the children he used to know? He only had very short on set interactions with them during season 4 so he really hasn't worked with them since 2018. I know that I'm trying to negotiate my relationship with my now adult children and come across to them as overbearing sometimes.

 

[oktay]

This is a very odd report as Harbour has been singled out by Brown and other younger members of the cast as being a caring and supportive father figure in previous seasons. Maybe Harbour merely had trouble negotiating working with the now adult actors rather than the children he used to know? He only had very short on set interactions with them during season 4 so he really hasn't worked with them since 2018. I know that I'm trying to negotiate my relationship with my now adult children and come across to them as overbearing sometimes.

One thing we have to accept is that none of the actors who grew up on Stranger Things were children. Millie Bobby Brown prefers to use the words "my youth" instead of "my childhood" when talking about herself at 12-14. She got married at 19 and is now a mother of one. The reason I say this is probably because she was raised to be spoiled from the start. There's probably not a single person on that set without an ego. Regarding the allegations regarding Jeremy Renner. This isn't the first allegation, but from what you've told me, even if Jeremy Renner is acquitted in the end, he won't be exonerated in the public eye.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The reason I say this is probably because she was raised to be spoiled from the start.

What????

 

[Turtletrekker]

What????

Beat me too it.

 

[theenglish]

Beat me too it.

I don't get the comment either. None of the original five were big stars and for most of them it was their first gig. Brown has apparently said she grew up poor and is very concerned with managing her money because of that. All I was saying is that it was possible that Harbour might have been treating her like she was a little girl even though by the time Season 5 came around she was an adult and professionally successful.

 

[Mage]

One thing we have to accept is that none of the actors who grew up on Stranger Things were children. Millie Bobby Brown prefers to use the words "my youth" instead of "my childhood" when talking about herself at 12-14. She got married at 19 and is now a mother of one. The reason I say this is probably because she was raised to be spoiled from the start. There's probably not a single person on that set without an ego. Regarding the allegations regarding Jeremy Renner. This isn't the first allegation, but from what you've told me, even if Jeremy Renner is acquitted in the end, he won't be exonerated in the public eye.

My sister got married at 19, when at 17 she said she was going into fashion. She met the of her life. First child at 22. There is NOTHING spoiled about her. Both she and I suffered trauma during our childhood and would sooner say 'when I was a kid' instead of childhood. We never felt we had one.