Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

I wonder why he's training in Australia? He's a British actor starring in an American show that films in New York, and if he is doing one or both of the next Avengers movies, those have all filmed or at least mostly filmed in Atlanta, so I'm not seeing the Australia connection.

Maybe Cox worked with that gym or one of its current members on some earlier production, and wanted to stick with trainers he knew. Or maybe he's filming something in Australia between his Marvel gigs. Or maybe Marvel shopped around for the best trainers and decided it was those guys.


Incidentally, IMDb claims that Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio will be playing Daredevil and Kingpin in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man. Makes sense if it's supposed to be part of the MCU multiverse, as does casting Hudson Thames (What If...?'s Spider-Man) in the lead role.

 

[JD]

It is, I read an article the other day that said that it will include a recreation of the first scene with Peter and Tony Stark in Civil War, only with Norman Osborne instead of Stark.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

How original.

 

[JD]

It seems like a fun way to establish it's place as part of the MCU multiverse to me.

 

[Anwar]

But also their was beyond that a lack of quality in many of the movies. Spiderman 4,Guardians 3 were the only great movie and personally I think Spiderman 4 is overrated and don't love it as much as others seem to do. We had some okay but kind of meh ones like Shang -Chi, Doctor Strange 3, Black Panther 2 , Black Widow but then lots of of bad ones. Ant-Man 4, The Marvels, Thor 4, The Eternals. The tv shows were solid except for Echo. But by then some of audience was gone, and IMO if things had been doing better at the movies Ms Marvel would have been more successful. Heck if they had put her in one of the popular movies like maybe Spiderman 4 to set the character up she might have also done better as a tv show when it comes to ratings.

No Way Home was nothing but Gutless fanservice.

Shang Chi, Guardians 3, Dr Strange 2, Wakanda Forever, all solid films. Thor 4 and Eternals were mediocre at worst, and the D+ were for the most part all very good. Better than most of Phases 1 and 2 certainly.

If these "fans" cared so much about how "obscure" characters were they'd have left after Guardians 1 was a success in 2014.

 

[eschaton]

But also their was beyond that a lack of quality in many of the movies. Spiderman 4,Guardians 3 were the only great movie and personally I think Spiderman 4 is overrated and don't love it as much as others seem to do. We had some okay but kind of meh ones like Shang -Chi, Doctor Strange 3, Black Panther 2 , Black Widow but then lots of of bad ones. Ant-Man 4, The Marvels, Thor 4, The Eternals. The tv shows were solid except for Echo. But by then some of audience was gone, and IMO if things had been doing better at the movies Ms Marvel would have been more successful. Heck if they had put her in one of the popular movies like maybe Spiderman 4 to set the character up she might have also done better as a tv show when it comes to ratings.

Earlier phases had meh movies to outright stinkers as well. Hell, I'd argue that most of Phase 1 was middling. The reputation for "MCU on fire" came largely from Phase 3, which didn't have a single real misstep (though Doctor Strange and Ant-Man and the Wasp weren't as good as the others).

I think the bigger issue with the MCU from Phase 4 onward is there was no real sense of a plan. It's been almost six years, and we don't even know the new Avengers lineups, let alone have a new Avengers movie. We've had lots of new character introductions, but very little follow up/building on what has been established. I mean, the bits have clearly been lying on the table for a Young Avengers for years, but by the time they get to it, they won't even be young any longer. Or why do all the "dark MCU" stuff without setting the stage for Midnight Suns?

Hell, just look at the post-credit scenes. From Phases 1-3, when they weren't meant as comedic one-offs, they were almost always paid off. The only exception was Spider-Man Homecoming teasing The Scorpion, but this could be pinned on Sony. Since then? Black Widow foreshadowed Hawkeye I guess. Wandavision set up a bit for both The Marvels and Multiverse of Madness. And, of course, Ms. Marvel also set up The Marvels. Yet most of the post-credit scenes have yet to amount to anything, and in many cases, likely never will. It just feels like they're throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. Which makes the audience take it all less seriously.

The recent announcement that more of the MCU Disney+ shows are going to get second seasons is a step in the right direction. There's enough pieces on the board now that you can start working on deepening existing stories/developing relationships, rather than introducing yet more characters that not much of anything will be done with.

 

[theenglish]

I second your opinion about the end scenes. Up through Endgame, the end credits scenes foreshadowed the next Marvel movie, with some exceptions, were basically short teasers for the next franchise installment and got people talking about what was coming up within a few months or a year. That built excitement for each film, and not having that connection for the last six years has been noticeably disappointing.

 

[Jayson1]

Earlier phases had meh movies to outright stinkers as well. Hell, I'd argue that most of Phase 1 was middling. The reputation for "MCU on fire" came largely from Phase 3, which didn't have a single real misstep (though Doctor Strange and Ant-Man and the Wasp weren't as good as the others).

I think the bigger issue with the MCU from Phase 4 onward is there was no real sense of a plan. It's ben almost six years, and we don't even know the new Avengers lineups, let alone have a new Avengers movie. We've had lots of new character introductions, but very little follow up/building on what has been established. I mean, the bits have clearly been lying on the table for a Young Avengers for years, but by the time they get to it, they won't even be young any longer. Or why do all the "dark MCU" stuff without setting the stage for Midnight Suns?

Hell, just look at the post-credit scenes. From Phases 1-3, when they weren't meant as comedic one-offs, they were almost always paid off. The only exception was Spider-Man Homecoming teasing The Scorpion, but this could be pinned on Sony. Since then? Black Widow foreshadowed Hawkeye I guess. Wandavision set up a bit for both The Marvels and Multiverse of Madness. I guess Black Widow's post-credits scene foreshadowed Hawkeye. Wandavision set up a bit for both The Marvels and Multiverse of Madness. And, of course, Ms. Marvel also set up The Marvels. Yet most of the post-credit scenes have yet to amount to anything, and in many cases, likely never will. It just feels like they're throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. Which makes the audience take it all less seriously.

The recent announcement that more of the MCU Disney+ shows are going to get second seasons is a step in the right direction. There's enough pieces on the board now that you can start working on deepening existing stories/developing relationships, rather than introducing yet more characters that not much of anything will be done with.

I don't know. I think all the MCU movies before Endgame, except Thor 2, Iron Man 2 and Captain Marvel were pretty good to great. Maybe first Thor movie was a little iffy. Same with Hulk and Ant-Man 2. Also I am not sure anything post Endgame comes close to matching Iron Man 1, All 3 Captain America movies, The first two Guardians movies, All the Avengers movies, Spider-man, Black Panther 1, Thor Ragnorak, Dr Strange 1, Ant Man 1 and not popular opinion but I love Iron Man 3. Also the first 3 Spider-Man movies, even though the third one is sort of like the epilogue to Endgame phase.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

But they are kind of right about the obscure thing. Loosing Stark and Captain America was a big loss in terms of Star power and popularity. You still had some good characters but I sort of relate it to the NBA when Jordan retired and Pippen got traded. I understand maybe having one season as a kind of rebuilding season where you try some new characters out but they really should already be thick into the X-Men and Fantastic Four at this point.Not to mention a Blade movie. They are destined to be the next big thing in the MCU. So many heavy hitters and Star characters to mine.

They would've been without all the unavoidable delays. Life kicks you in the teeth sometimes and there's not much to be done about it. Regardless, Dr. Strange, Spider-man, Captain Marvel, Shuri, Thor, Hulk, She-hulk, Daredevil, Ms. Marvel, Yelena, FalconCap and Shang-chi aren't chump change.

But also their was beyond that a lack of quality in many of the movies. Spiderman 4,Guardians 3 were the only great movie and personally I think Spiderman 4 is overrated and don't love it as much as others seem to do. We had some okay but kind of meh ones like Shang -Chi, Doctor Strange 3, Black Panther 2 , Black Widow but then lots of of bad ones. Ant-Man 4, The Marvels, Thor 4, The Eternals. The tv shows were solid except for Echo. But by then some of audience was gone, and IMO if things had been doing better at the movies Ms Marvel would have been more successful. Heck if they had put her in one of the popular movies like maybe Spiderman 4 to set the character up she might have also done better as a tv show when it comes to ratings.

I don't know. I think all the MCU movies before Endgame, except Thor 2, Iron Man 2 and Captain Marvel were pretty good to great. Maybe first Thor movie was a little iffy. Same with Hulk and Ant-Man 2. Also I am not sure anything post Endgame comes close to matching Iron Man 1, All 3 Captain America movies, The first two Guardians movies, All the Avengers movies, Spider-man, Black Panther 1, Thor Ragnorak, Dr Strange 1, Ant Man 1 and not popular opinion but I love Iron Man 3. Also the first 3 Spider-Man movies, even though the third one is sort of like the epilogue to Endgame phase.

Iron Man 1 is at best a middle of the pack MCU movie. Captain Marvel is a better film than it. Multiverse of Madness is a vastly better film than it, Guardians Vol 3 and Wakanda Forever even more than that and Shang-Chi even more than that. Also, Vol 3 is clearly the best in that trilogy and the cap trilogy - while fantastic - is not better than WF. Ragnarok is laughably overrated and Dr Strange 1 (as well as Far from Home) is barely even worth watching. Homecoming is one of my all-time favorite films, but Shang-Chi is still more fun. And the reason nothing feels like the Avengers is because you really can't compare solo movies/small team movies to an Avengers style film, which we simply haven't had since EG.

And that's without even talking about the D+ projects (which also include 2 of the best things MS has ever produce).

Iron Man 2 and 3 and Thor 2 and Hulk are all at or below the level of Black Widow or the Marvels, and they make up almost half the films that came out in phases 1 and 2. Ant-man, while better than those others is still worse than Iron Man (and Shang-Chi, DS3, GotG3 and WF). Hell, Quantumania is still better than the first Ant-man (and with it, IM 2 and 3, Thor 2 and Hulk).

 

[oktay]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[eschaton]

Let's look at setup/payoff from 2021-2023, to see the status of things.

Wandavision: Set up Wanda's arc for Multiverse of Madness (though with less writing coordination than was ideal). Monica Rambeau was shoehorned in, to allow for her later use in The Marvels. Agatha All Along eventually served as a sequel of sorts.

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier: The show was clearly meant as a "passing of the torch" to Sam as the new Cap, even though the short scene in Endgame made this clear already. Hopefully there will be decent payoff next year, as both the new Captain America movie and Thunderbolts* follow up on segments of the story.

Loki: A great show which is looking to be a pruned timeline, given the whole He Who Remains/Kang plotline was dropped entirely.

Black Widow: Set up introducing Yelena (later seen in Hawkeye). Will be more payoff coming with both (plus Red Guardian and Taskmaster) in Thunderbolts*, but we've been waiting four years now for this.

Shang-Chi: Amazingly, the most solid 2021 MCU movie has gotten zero follow-up. If you squint hard, you can see where his rings could be related to Kang's tech later seen in Quantumania. But every character introduced here has been left unseen, other than in episodes of What If...? Pretty soon, Simu Liu is going to be pushing 40. What did we have his origin story for again?

Eternals: Tried to do so much, introducing an entirely new team, the Black Knight, Thanos's brother, and a tiny voice cameo for Blade. None of it means anything within the wider MCU, as it seems they've abandoned any effort to do much of anything with it.

Hawkeye: A passing of the torch to Kate Bishop, who is a character that we've still not seen again other than that tiny post-credits scene at the end of The Marvels. The MCU did more with Echo (who inexplicably got her own series nobody watched much). Clint Barton has gotten more air time via his Echo cameo since Hawkeye than Kate, which is weird, considering this was meant as his "retirement." I guess the show did introduce Kingpin into the MCU though, and could thus be seen as the introduction of the "street-level MCU."

Spider-Man: No Way Home: MCU Spidey movies are often a bit more self-contained, and this turned out to be a greatest hits for the Sonyverse of course, with little linkage to the MCU other than Doctor Strange. Would probably have worked better if Multiverse of Madness had come out first, as was intended. Of course, the tease of Venom in the MCU went nowhere.

Moon Knight: Almost totally self-contained, though in this case, perhaps refreshingly so, as other than a blink and you miss it reference to Majipoor it's hard to even know it's within the MCU.

Multiverse of Madness: The post-credit scene here has no clear way of being paid off. I guess Agatha mentioned Wanda's death, so that's something.

Ms. Marvel: This was meant as an introduction of Kamala Khan and to set up the Marvels. I think the show succeeded as setup in spades, even if the payoff left much to be desired.

Thor: Love and Thunder: I don't expect we're getting more Thor, or the teased Hercules any time soon. It's a shame the execution was poor here, because with a bit more tweaking, this could have worked as a semi-retirement for Thor.

She-Hulk: Attorney at Law: While this show had a lot of cameos, I don't think it really was meant to set up much, other than that weird last-minute drop that Bruce had a son. I don't think that CGI child will be seen again, even if we get Young Avengers. Why not just cast a Hulkling? Much cheaper.

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Another "passing of the torch" story, with a new Black Panther rising. The secondary use, however, was to introduce Riri, which has been a bit squandered with the repeated delays of Ironheart.

Quantumania: A complete and total waste, since this was supposed to be the "proper introduction" to Kang, who was teased in Loki, but he was squandered so badly that between that an Jonathan Majors being a scumbag, they completely retooled their planned arc for Phases 4-6.

GOTG3: Obviously nothing here has been paid off yet, but I think it worked well as a capstone to the Guardians arc, and set up the cast for a GOTG4 (if we ever get one) well enough.

Secret Invasion: Absolutely awful, not just as a series, but as payoff. Fury is a totally different character here from The Marvels, with none of the events from this series impacting him at all. Given the frosty reaction from fans, I doubt we'll ever see the various plot threads followed up on.

The Marvels: It teased both the Young Avengers, with Kamala Khan meeting up with Kate Bishop, along with the introduction of the X-Men to the MCU. Remains to be seen what will happen.

Overall, it seems like there was still a plan up until 2021 or so, and since then, they've just been throwing random shit, then backtracking if fans have bad reactions.

 

[Jayson1]

I think whatever they wanted to do was hurt by a few things. One was Captain Marvel didn't become the popular character she was suppose to become. So we saw less of her. Kang fell through because of the actors behavior. Also it's not talked about much but when James Gunn was fired that stopped him from what I think they wanted to do and basically make him in charge of all cosmic adventures going on. Part of me thinks they even wanted him to succeed Feige who was showing interests in doing a Star Wars and I think maybe he is at a point where he might have wanted to move on to different challenges. Also the other blow was the death of Chadwick Boseman because he also was suppose to be a major player in the next phase as well.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Loosing Stark and Captain America was a big loss in terms of Star power and popularity.

One would not expect two actors to chain their ankles to one film series for the foreseeable future. In-universe, the characters had an arc which reached their conclusions in the film you're well aware of. The MCU has been troubled, but its failings cannot be placed on the absence of the Rogers and Stark characters. The failings were all from within each concept.

You still had some good characters but I sort of relate it to the NBA when Jordan retired and Pippen got traded. I understand maybe having one season as a kind of rebuilding season where you try some new characters out but they really should already be thick into the X-Men and Fantastic Four at this point.

You cite Disney/Marvel trying new characters, but you seem to be of the opinion that no matter what the studio tried, they needed the Fantastic Four and (overexposed) X-Men in order to appeal to audiences. You've just admitted--in your way--that the MCU's non-Best Marketed Characters were largely a mistake.

They are destined to be the next big thing in the MCU. So many heavy hitters and Star characters to mine.

If it works, and the superhero movie fatigue is not as potent as some theorize.

But also their was beyond that a lack of quality in many of the movies. Spiderman 4,Guardians 3 were the only great movie

Great? Okay...

and personally I think Spiderman 4 is overrated and don't love it as much as others seem to do.

The best live action Spider-Man movies have nothing to do with the MCU. Yes, I know that triggers certain people, and on that note...oh, well.

We had some okay but kind of meh ones like Shang -Chi, Doctor Strange 3, Black Panther 2 , Black Widow

All underwhelming to forgettable.

but then lots of of bad ones. Ant-Man 4, The Marvels, Thor 4, The Eternals

Agreed--they were horrible, misguided crap. Rather lifeless productions.

The tv shows were solid except for Echo. But by then some of audience was gone, and IMO if things had been doing better at the movies Ms Marvel would have been more successful. Heck if they had put her in one of the popular movies like maybe Spiderman 4 to set the character up she might have also done better as a tv show when it comes to ratings.

Who knows? But its not one of the series many viewers are talking about revisiting (as opposed to--for example--the Netlfix Marvel series, which retain strong interests long after their collective ending).

 

[Jayson1]

One would not expect two actors to chain their ankles to one film series for the foreseeable future. In-universe, the characters had an arc which reached their conclusions in the film you're well aware of. The MCU has been troubled, but its failings cannot be placed on the absence of the Rogers and Stark characters. The failings were all from within each concept.



You cite Disney/Marvel trying new characters, but you seem to be of the opinion that no matter what the studio tried, they needed the Fantastic Four and (overexposed) X-Men in order to appeal to audiences. You've just admitted--in your way--that the MCU's non-Best Marketed Characters were largely a mistake.



If it works, and the superhero movie fatigue is not as potent as some theorize.



Great? Okay...



The best live action Spider-Man movies have nothing to do with the MCU. Yes, I know that triggers certain people, and on that note...oh, well.



All underwhelming to forgettable.



Agreed--they were horrible, misguided crap. Rather lifeless productions.



Who knows? But its not one of the series many viewers are talking about revisiting (as opposed to--for example--the Netlfix Marvel series, which retain strong interests long after their collective ending).

I think the X-Men and Fantastic Four, while not new maybe on some level would be new in that we would be seeing the MCU versions of these characters. Not to mention that X-Men allows you access to your best female characters , which would be good in their attempt to create more female characters. I mean isn't it common knowledge that the X-Men brand carries all the heavy hitters just about when it comes to female characters? Storm,Rogue, Jean Grey, Kitty Pryde, Emma Frost and so forth. It's like a untapped well.

 

[Christopher]

Let's look at setup/payoff from 2021-2023, to see the status of things.
Wandavision: Set up Wanda's arc for Multiverse of Madness (though with less writing coordination than was ideal). Monica Rambeau was shoehorned in, to allow for her later use in The Marvels. Agatha All Along eventually served as a sequel of sorts.

I don't think Monica was "shoehorned in" any more than T'Challa was in Civil War. She played an important role in the storyline.

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier: The show was clearly meant as a "passing of the torch" to Sam as the new Cap, even though the short scene in Endgame made this clear already. Hopefully there will be decent payoff next year, as both the new Captain America movie and Thunderbolts follow up on segments of the story.

IIRC, it also set up Sharon as the Power Broker, but I don't think that's been followed up on except in What If...?

Loki: A great show which is looking to be a pruned timeline, given the whole He Who Remains/Kang plotline was dropped entirely.

We don't yet know that. They will be shifting focus away from it, but it's premature to assume they'll just ignore all the setup rather than finding a more concise, organic resolution for it. It would be pretty bad writing to do the former, so I have faith that they won't be so lazy.

The TVA has been referenced in Deadpool & Wolverine, of course, and briefly in What If...? this season.

Black Widow: Set up introducing Yelena (later seen in Hawkeye). Will be more payoff coming with both (plus Red Guardian and Taskmaster) in Thunderbolts, but we've been waiting four years now for this.

Why are people critiquing movies so quick to forget the huge pandemic that threw everything off track about four years ago, not to mention the writers' and actors' strikes in 2023? It's not Marvel's fault that their plans were delayed, any more than it's the Arrowverse's fault that their big post-Crisis shared-universe crossover plans got scuttled by the pandemic-era restrictions on production crews interacting. Heck, unlike the Arrowverse, at least the MCU is still in production and has the opportunity to catch up.

Shang-Chi: Amazingly, the most solid 2021 MCU movie has gotten zero follow-up. If you squint hard, you can see where his rings could be related to Kang's tech later seen in Quantumania. But every character introduced here has been left unseen, other than in episodes of What If...? Pretty soon, Simu Liu is going to be pushing 40. What did we have his origin story for again?

This is very disappointing, but at least we have What If...? This is why I have zero patience for people who dismiss animation as inferior or unimportant. WI has been a valuable addition to the MCU, largely because of the followup it's given to characters and ideas that haven't been revisited in live action.

As for Liu pushing 40, I don't think that means as much for a martial-arts star. Look how much ass Michelle Yeoh can still kick in her 60s. Jackie Chan was doing impressive action well into his 50s, as did Ming-Na Wen on Agents of SHIELD. Heck, even in American film, it's commonplace for action leads these days to be in their 40s or 50s. Dwayne Johnson is 52, Jason Momoa is 45, and they're still getting big action roles.

Eternals: Tried to do so much, introducing an entirely new team, the Black Knight, Thanos's brother, and a tiny voice cameo for Blade. None of it means anything within the wider MCU, as it seems they've abandoned any effort to do much of anything with it.

Which is a shame, since I really liked it. And who doesn't want more Gemma Chan?

Although it appears there will be followup for it in Captain America: Brave New World. And two What If...? season 3 episodes were derived from elements of it.

Hawkeye: A passing of the torch to Kate Bishop, who is a character that we've still not seen again other than that tiny post-credits scene at the end of The Marvels.

And in What If...?

The MCU did more with Echo (who inexplicably got her own series nobody watched much).

It's not "inexplicable." The Hawkeye producers were really impressed by the actress and gave her a spinoff. That's how spinoffs usually happen in TV and film. Audiences today are just too blinded by the fixation on characters as pre-existing IP rather than as opportunities for actors to demonstrate their skill and charisma.

Moon Knight: Almost totally self contained, though in this case, perhaps refreshingly so, as other than a blink and you miss it reference to Majipoor it's hard to even know it's within the MCU.

Moon Knight appeared in the What If...? season 3 premiere, but in a minor role that could've been filled by any character, so it was random that they used him at all.

Multiverse of Madness: The post-credit scene here has no clear way of being paid off. I guess Agatha mentioned Wanda's death, so that's something.

I think this enormously understates the degree to which Agatha All Along was a direct sequel to Multiverse of Madness. Its entire story arc was catalyzed by the consequences of that film's events, and largely served to reintroduce a character who originated in that movie and position him for the Young Avengers.

Ms. Marvel: This was meant as an introduction of Kamala Khan and to set up the Marvels. I think the show succeeded as setup in spades, even if the payoff left much to be desired.

I thought the payoff was excellent. Despite the rhetoric of people with agendas to advance, The Marvels is a very good movie that only underperformed because the strike precluded the cast and crew from promoting it, and it was actually the number one movie in a release weekend where every film underperformed because of the strike. It also appears to have done well in streaming on D+, though it's hard to get specifics.

Thor: Love and Thunder: I don't expect we're getting more Thor, or the teased Hercules any time soon. It's a shame the execution was poor here, because with a bit more tweaking, this could have worked as a semi-retirement for Thor.

Zeus appeared in What If...?, but not played by Russell Crowe.

She-Hulk: Attorney at Law: While this show had a lot of cameos, I don't think it really was meant to set up much, other than that weird last-minute drop that Bruce had a son. I don't think that CGI child will be seen again, even if we get Young Avengers. Why not just cast a Hulkling? Much cheaper.

I'm really disappointed we didn't get Shulkie in What If...? My pet theory is that her superpowers include the ability to perceive the Watcher, and that he's the audience she's talking to. (Although that wouldn't explain the fourth-wall-breaking finale of her show.)

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Another "passing of the torch" story, with a new Black Panther rising. The secondary use, however, was to introduce Riri, which has been a bit squandered with the repeated delays of Ironheart.

Delayed, but still coming. Again, the delays were unavoidable due to worldshaking events, so it seems petty to complain about them.

Quantumania: A complete and total waste, since this was supposed to be the "proper introduction" to Kang, who was teased in Loki, but he was squandered so badly that between that an Jonathan Majors being a scumbag, they completely retooled their planned arc for Phases 4-6.

The setup may have been wasted, but I think the movie's still fairly worthwhile (if flawed) in its own right, which is immensely more important than what it sets up for the future. And you're forgetting that it set up Cassie Lang for the Young Avengers as well as setting up Kang.

GOTG3: Obviously nothing here has been paid off yet, but I think it worked well as a capstone to the Guardians arc, and set up the cast for a GOTG4 (if we ever get one) well enough.

I don't think this was meant to be setup for anything. It completed Gunn's trilogy before he moved on.

Secret Invasion: Absolutely awful, not just as a series, but as payoff. Fury is a totally different character here from The Marvels, with none of the events from this series impacting him at all. Given the frosty reaction from fans, I doubt we'll ever see the various plot threads followed up on.

I consider it non-canonical.

 

[theenglish]

I think the X-Men and Fantastic Four, while not new maybe on some level would be new in that we would be seeing the MCU versions of these characters. Not to mention that X-Men allows you access to your best female characters , which would be good in their attempt to create more female characters. I mean isn't it common knowledge that the X-Men brand carries all the heavy hitters just about when it comes to female characters? Storm,Rogue, Jean Grey, Kitty Pryde, Emma Frost and so forth. It's like a untapped well.

LOL--Have you seen The Franchise? This post reminds me of the episode called The Woman Problem.

 

[Jayson1]

LOL--Have you seen The Franchise? This post reminds me of the episode called The Woman Problem.

Not yet. I did think see a clip from that episode but forgot some of the details. I look at it all like a sports metaphor. You got your A-Team and your B-Squad and the C-listers. Sometimes with the right actor like Downey or director in Gunn you can see a character or characters be elevated but their is a reason for the longest time the WB would always only make Batman and Superman movies. The great thing about the X-Men is your got a shitload of A-teamers from that brand just waiting to take off. Those old X-Men movies and the cartoon even did lots of the heavy lifting for those who don't read the comics.

 

[eschaton]

I don't think Monica was "shoehorned in" any more than T'Challa was in Civil War. She played an important role in the storyline.

Jac Shaeffer has been on record that her initial pitch for Wandavision didn't include Monica. It was something that was added as the show was developed.

IIRC, it also set up Sharon as the Power Broker, but I don't think that's been followed up on except in What If...?

YMMV, but I don't consider roles in What If...? to count. Good on the actors if they get to reprise these roles, but we're not seeing the same characters, but alternate versions of the same characters (sometimes starkly different, like the 1872 episode, where they've nothing in common but the names and actors playing the role).

We don't yet know that. They will be shifting focus away from it, but it's premature to assume they'll just ignore all the setup rather than finding a more concise, organic resolution for it. It would be pretty bad writing to do the former, so I have faith that they won't be so lazy.

True. There's the potential as of yet that Loki may step off his throne in a future Avengers movie. I do think it would be poignant if Thor were killed in the next Avengers movie, and Loki just misses being able to reunite with him.

The TVA has been referenced in Deadpool & Wolverine, of course, and briefly in What If...? this season.

True. I'd argue there was something of a missed opportunity not involving the TVA in No Way Home, given the focus of that movie on alternative universes.

This is very disappointing, but at least we have What If...? This is why I have zero patience for people who dismiss animation as inferior or unimportant. WI has been a valuable addition to the MCU, largely because of the followup it's given to characters and ideas that haven't been revisited in live action.

Again, I'm not arguing animation doesn't count, but that show is not within continuity with the MCU, hence it's basically a fun thought experiment, not a continuation of either the greater plot arc or the individual characters stories. Though I suppose it's possible we'll meet The Watcher and his new crew in a live-action cameo down the line, which would bring What If...? into the story.

Although it appears there will be followup for it in Captain America: Brave New World.

What are you referring to here? Brave New World seems like it's going to be a mashup of dangling plot threads from The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and the Norton Hulk movie, of all things.

It's not "inexplicable." The Hawkeye producers were really impressed by the actress and gave her a spinoff. That's how spinoffs usually happen in TV and film. Audiences today are just too blinded by the fixation on characters as pre-existing IP rather than as opportunities for actors to demonstrate their skill and charisma.

I think it's a dumb practice to decide on doing a spinoff of a "charismatic" character before viewers get to see a single frame. That's not to say that I think the role of writers is just to "give the fans what they want." Decisions should be based upon storytelling potential. But there was always going to be a finite number of these shows. And while viewers of Hawkeye didn't hate Echo by any means, I remember it being pretty far down in "the discourse" at the time (which was focused more on things like the return of The Kingpin, or Yelena.

I found Echo to be fine, but kind of boring, BTW. More similar tonally to the Netflix shows than the other Disney+ stuff. Considering they scrapped their original plans for the series, editing an episode away and dropping it in a single day, I guess that Disney lost faith in the project at some point.

Moon Knight appeared in the What If...? season 3 premiere, but in a minor role that could've been filled by any character, so it was random that they used him at all.

Don't think it counted. Apparently we are getting a season 2, which will be good.

Again, I firmly believe they should just pivot into Midnight Suns. We have Moon Knight, Blade, Black Knight, Werewolf By Night, Man-Thing, etc. Wiccan and Agatha could go here or to Young Avengers, and they could have Dr. Strange/Wong jump in as well. Lots of possibilities.

I think this enormously understates the degree to which Agatha All Along was a direct sequel to Multiverse of Madness. Its entire story arc was catalyzed by the consequences of that film's events, and largely served to reintroduce a character who originated in that movie and position him for the Young Avengers.

The character didn't originate in Multiverse of Madness. Billy was in Wandavision before that. Indeed, that was the "first" version of Billy. All we really saw in MoM was flashbacks and an alternative version of Billy who's mother wasn't the Scarlet Witch and was scared of her.

Agatha All Along made it canonical that Billy's "soul" traveled into William Kaplan the moment that Wanda defeated Agatha/her spell over Westview was broken. Everything that happened in MoM happened after Wiccan came into being.

Nothing in MoM mattered for Agatha, other than Wanda's death. Even her death is a bit up in the air at the moment.

I thought the payoff was excellent. Despite the rhetoric of people with agendas to advance, The Marvels is a very good movie that only underperformed because the strike precluded the cast and crew from promoting it, and it was actually the number one movie in a release weekend where every film underperformed because of the strike. It also appears to have done well in streaming on D+, though it's hard to get specifics.

It was way better than I expected it to be, though it's still a middle-of-the-pack movie which was clearly heavily altered in post-production.

I do think it's arguable the degree to which The Marvels seemed like it needed "homework" to watch may have hurt it. It was the first MCU film which really directly followed up on events/characters from multiple Disney+ shows. I don't think you needed them to understand Monica and Kamala as characters, but it probably did reduce the broader appeal a bit.

I'm really disappointed we didn't get Shulkie in What If...? My pet theory is that her superpowers include the ability to perceive the Watcher, and that he's the audience she's talking to. (Although that wouldn't explain the fourth-wall-breaking finale of her show.)

I want to see She-Hulk and Deadpool in the same movie.

The setup may have been wasted, but I think the movie's still fairly worthwhile (if flawed) in its own right, which is immensely more important than what it sets up for the future. And you're forgetting that it set up Cassie Lang for the Young Avengers as well as setting up Kang.

Still kind of miffed about Cassie being recast, TBH, though Emma Fuhrmann seems to have stopped acting as of 2020, so maybe there were some deeper BTS reasons for it. Still, I thought her portrayal in Eldgame was better than anything Kathryn Newton has put in (who is also a little bit older, cutting against the whole Young Avengers thing).

I don't think this was meant to be setup for anything. It completed Gunn's trilogy before he moved on.

It closed the door on Gunn's story while leaving the door open for a Rocket-led team and for Star-Lord to do something if he wanted.

I'd say it's 50/50 if we get more GOTG in the future, though I'm guessing Chris Pratt will want another paycheck.

 

[JD]

A lot of the movies we've gotten since Endgame do have sequels in the works, they're just spreading them out a bit more than they did before. Sure they could have focused more giving us sequels than new characters, but given the choice I'd rather get more new characters.
But it looks like we're shifting more in the other direction now, of the next 7 movies only two of them are introducing new characters, and the other 5 are all sequels or some other form of follow up on previous movies.

• Captain America: Brave New World, is following up on The Falcon and The Winter Soldier and Incredible Hulk, then
• Thunderbolts is following up on TF&TWSS, Black Widow, and Ant-Man & The Wasp,
• The Fantastic Four: First Steps is obviously our intro to the FF
• Avengers: Doomsday is the first half of the Muliversal Saga's finale
• Spiderman: Home___ 4
• Avengers: Secret Wars is the sequel to Doomsday
• Blade introduces the title character to the MCU

On the TV front

• Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man is kind of a mixture since it's a new version of Spider-Man, but it sounds like will remix elements of the Home__ movies
• Daredevil: Born Again is a sequel to the Netflix Daredevil series
• Ironheart is a followup to Wakanda Forever
• Eyes of Wakanda expands on the Black Panther movies
• Marvel Zombies is a spin-off of What If...?
• Wonder Man introduces the title character to the MCU
• Vision Quest is a follow up for WandaVision

What are you referring to here? Brave New World seems like it's going to be a mashup of dangling plot threads from The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and the Norton Hulk movie, of all things.

We saw in trailers, and it was then confirmed in interviews with the director and or writer, that the partially exposed Tiamut and the adamantium that people are getting from it are a big plot point in Brave New World.

I think it's a dumb practice to decide on doing a spinoff of a "charismatic" character before viewers get to see a single frame. That's not to say that I think the role of writers is just to "give the fans what they want." Decisions should be based upon storytelling potential. But there was always going to be a finite number of these shows. And while viewers of Hawkeye didn't hate Echo by any means, I remember it being pretty far down in "the discourse" at the time (which was focused more on things like the return of The Kingpin, or Yelena.

This is pretty much standard practice for this kind of spin-off, plenty of them have started pre-production before the parent show came out. The problem with waiting to start production on a show like this is that you want to get the show out close to the original show, so that it comes out when people still care about the character and haven't moved on the something like this.

I do think it's arguable the degree to which The Marvels seemed like it needed "homework" to watch may have hurt it. It was the first MCU film which really directly followed up on events/characters from multiple Disney+ shows. I don't think you needed them to understand Monica and Kamala as characters, but it probably did reduce the broader appeal a bit.

My mom watched it without any of the Disney+ shows, and she followed it fine.

 

[Jayson1]

What I wish they would do is a Wakanda series that explores the daily lives of the people. In fact I have more desire for that than another movies, unless Denzel is going to be the lead in the movie. I think their is something fascinating about the idea of exploring how their is dark under belly forming underneath what is mostly presented as a paradise. Between led by a royal family instead of a democracy and the isolation where I guess most of the people have been kept ignorant about the outside world I could see a real class issue happening in that society. Something that can't be papered over with all the high level of tech.