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Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)


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Yes, ANH ended that way. But Lucas hadn't really thought through the trilogy at that point, and ANH is in every way an inferior movie to TESB (it's just a simple well-crafted adventure story). Vader only became a compelling villain once he was given the nuance in the second movie.

But that's exactly the point. You claimed, verbatim, that "You can't make a villain who's already lost once into a threatening antagonist easily, because it's been shown they can be defeated." Your own example of TESB disproves your earlier claim, because Vader was "a villain who'[d] already lost once," and you acknowledge that that did not prevent TESB from making him compelling. Okay, maybe that doesn't count as doing it "easily," but good filmmaking is never easy, so that one variable doesn't make it any more prohibitive.


I realize if you're looking at comics you can make that argument. But within movie series, we seldom see the same villain come back twice without a total reboot (the Joker has been played in four different ways in live-action movies over the course of my life, for example).

Except we're talking about the MCU, which is unlike past movie series in that it's deliberately structured to work more like comic book narratives. It's invalid to compare it to older movie series that weren't planned out as continuous in the same way.


Regardless, part of the issue is not only that Kang lost, but that he lost to Ant-Man, who is a second-string MCU superhero, along with a rag-tag group of his hangers on. If one lesser Avenger can take on Kang essentially solo, than the sum total of all the superheroes within the MCU shouldn't break a sweat.

I remain bewildered that people keep forgetting the concept of an underdog story when it comes to this movie. Come on, in SW, Luke Skywalker was just some gawky 19-year-old farmboy whose only combat training was shooting defenseless rodents while joyriding. In Die Hard, John McClain was explicitly, textually an ordinary, unremarkable cop who'd never faced a crisis like this before (never mind the sequels). The fact that the hero is a seemingly unimpressive little guy triumphing over a vastly superior foe is the whole point. How the hell is this any different?

Also, it's naive to think that a man who can control ants is a "lesser" Avenger. Ants are arguably the dominant multicellular life form on the planet, vastly exceeding humans in biomass, so whoever rules the ants basically rules the world. It's kinda like Aquaman -- people think of him as less important, but he's the literal king of the largest territory on Earth. The whole point of the movie was that Kang was foolish to underestimate Ant-Man, so it's bizarre that so many viewers make the same mistake that proved fatal for the villain.
 
I don't think necessarily Scott Lang had to die. But it would have been nice if Hank Pym had. Or Hope. Or maybe that Scott made the sacrifice of getting trapped down in the quantum realm as a consequence of defeating Kang. Because the stakes ultimately were pretty hollow here.

I think I read that in an earlier draft - someone did die, and/or they became trapped. Yes, there are various ways you could improve the stakes.

Regardless, part of the issue is not only that Kang lost but that he lost to Ant-Man, who is a second-string MCU superhero, along with a rag-tag group of his hangers-on. If one lesser Avenger can take on Kang essentially solo, than the sum total of all the superheroes within the MCU shouldn't break a sweat.

For contractual reasons, we couldn't see him kill all the Avengers he claimed, but I'm surprised we didn't get scenes of him beating and killing various versions of Ant-Man to put emphasis on that.

I don't think they'd play up Scott's past experience with Kang regardless, and any interesting character complexities related to the past history are just thrown out the window.

Shades of An American Werewolf in London:

you promised me you'd never do this sort of thing again!
But I've never seen you before in my life!
Oh Sorry!
 
I don't know how old you are, but it's five for me: Nicholson, Ledger, Leto, Phoenix, Keoghan.


Eight for me - Cesar Romero, Jack Nicholson, Roger Stoneburner ("Birds of Prey"), Heath Ledger, Jared Leto, Cameron Monaghan, Joaquin Phoenix and Barry Keoghan.
 
He specifically said movies, so I was leaving out TV.


Oh.


There's no reason a Cap movie has to be a huge sfx extravaganza. Damage his wings early on and you're looking at a ground level street fighter like Black Widow or Daredevil with the action sequences relying on choreography and physical stunts.

Yet, what Sam did with those wings always took my breath away. But I admire him more for being the first Avenger to reject the Sokovia Accords. I'm sure the MCU had reversed his decision by "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier".
 
Scott getting trapped in the QR would have been too much of a retread. Been there, done that.

Did we even see it? It's been a while since I saw it - it's just some vague hazy energy field isn't it? Scott doesn't actually do anything or interact with one?
 
Kang is a failure as far as I can see and it’s nothing to do with the actor - his introduction was poorly managed and he comes across as a putz.

This. Uninteresting from the start, and that is not the kind of screen villain that carries a series or an arc

Yeah, if you're talking about a self-contained story. But Quantamania was not meant to be self-contained. It was meant to be the introduction of the big bad for the multiverse arc.

Exactly, but some will tap-shuffle-tap over that with easily debunked excuses used in an attempt to prop up ill-conceived characters and hair-thin plots.

I mean, look at The Empire Strikes Back, which is generally considered the best of the Star Wars movies. Luke does not defeat Darth Vader at the end. Vader wins. He cuts off Luke's hand, Luke barely escapes with his life/freedom. The movie ends on a dark note, which builds up the threat of Darth Vader for ROTJ.

Excellent example. That was the way to build on a continuing story, and it certainly had audiences investing their interest in the fate and future of the both hero and villain. That was nowhere to be found in the Ant-Man movie.

You can't make a villain who's already lost once into a threatening antagonist easily, because it's been shown they can be defeated. It's like Gargamel always trying to get the Smurfs or Dr. Claw and Inspector Gadget. It just comes across as stupid, if not outright comedic.

Well put.
 
This. Uninteresting from the start, and that is not the kind of screen villain that carries a series or an arc

Not in Loki, which was his first real appearance.

Excellent example. That was the way to build on a continuing story, and it certainly had audiences investing their interest in the fate and future of the both hero and villain. That was nowhere to be found in the Ant-Man movie.

Because that wasn't his first appearance, Loki was.

Well put.

Good thing we saw him win already in Loki.
 
eschaton said:
If one lesser Avenger can take on Kang essentially solo, than the sum total of all the superheroes within the MCU shouldn't break a sweat.
Strange held his own one-on-one against Thanos for a while when Thanos had four infinity stones; in the next film, the sum total went up against a stoneless Thanos. These things happen.
 
I'm struggling to remember because it was such a forgettable film but wasn't that Kang exiled because he was such a badass?

But if the rest of the Kangs think he is is a badass but he's clearly not then even less to worry about with the rest of them.
 
He Who Remains was a Kang variant, but he was not Kang. Thus I don't think it's fair to say he was Kang's introduction as a character, just his introduction as a concept.

Was it effective? Yes, it hinted at something incredible, particularly at the end of Season 1, which left it seeming like Loki had crossed into a variant timeline where Kang was ruler, rather than just traveling back in time. But as it turned out, we never saw Kang at all in Loki.
 
, which left it seeming like Loki had crossed into a variant timeline where Kang was ruler, rather than just traveling back in time.

I wonder if that was an intentional misdirect or they really did change their minds about season 2. I go back and forth on it.
 
I haven't checked, but I've heard people say that the shows are not only on DisneyPlus (have been for a while) but are now part of the MCU timeline when looking up the MCU.
Indeed. The Netflix shows are not included on the menus for Phase 2 or 3, but are included on the MCU "Timeline order" menu. It would work better as a timeline if the various seasons were separated to better lead into Defenders and beyond, but that's a minor thing.
 
I'm struggling to remember because it was such a forgettable film but wasn't that Kang exiled because he was such a badass?

But if the rest of the Kangs think he is is a badass but he's clearly not then even less to worry about with the rest of them.

No, he was just one of the Kangs who was defeated and Exiled by "He Who Remains". The more powerful Kangs (Immortus, Rama-Tut, Centurion) simply keep tabs on the others.
 
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