Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by bbjeg, Apr 6, 2014.

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What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)

  1. A+

    18.1%
  2. A

    26.9%
  3. A-

    14.6%
  4. B+

    7.6%
  5. B

    14.0%
  6. B-

    2.9%
  7. C+

    3.5%
  8. C

    4.7%
  9. C-

    2.9%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0.6%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    4.1%
  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Yes, and I understand that as a generalization. I've seen it up close, because my late father loved hamming it up as over-the-top villains, whether reading stories to my sister and me as children (he did a great Gollum voice for The Hobbit) or doing the occasional performance as part of his work as a prominent local radio announcer (e.g. playing the Devil in a live performance of Igor Stravinsky's The Soldier's Tale).

    But my point is that just because something is often the case, that doesn't mean it can't have exceptions. I'm not saying your point is wrong, just that it's not the complete picture. I'm trying to add another layer to the conversation, and that does not falsify or erase the point you're making, it just expands on it. Life is not black-and-white; there are always shades of gray.

    And I still say it's possible to write a heroic character who's eccentric or complex enough to let an actor play something very different from themselves. A troubled antihero is an obvious example, though it's low-hanging fruit since it's not that different from a villain. Speaking for myself, as an introvert, I've found that it can be liberating to play the role of a more confident, outgoing figure, whether performing in a classroom or putting myself in such a character's shoes as a writer. (In high school English class, I was just about the only one who performed rather than just dully reciting when the teachers had the students read Shakespeare plays aloud, so I tended to get the big parts like Mercutio, Brutus, and Hamlet.)


    That's probably just making an excuse for the general toxicity of an industry that puts enormous stresses on its employees, generally through the abusive culture perpetuated by the executives. There's no way a single factor like playing a fictional character would've driven him to that if there hadn't been a lot of other things driving him to that vulnerable state. Since different actors who've played the Joker have reacted to it in very different ways, it doesn't seem logical to assume it's the relevant causative factor here.
     
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  2. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I thought it was a high point.
     
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  3. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Stark was a villain the second he volunteered to act as Ross's attack dog / hunter of Bucky, which continued to split relations between the Avengers, and justified Ross' view that Rogers and his allies were criminals / threats to society.


    I do not know how anyone concluded Ledger's psychological issues had anything to do with the Joker role. Its as though some were looking to associate the character with a tragedy for the most bankrupt, reality-detached reasons imaginable.
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Mileage will vary because I cannot stand a plot that insists upon ripping the heroes apart after them finally finding common ground. It's some bull cookies right there, and ends very poorly.
     
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  5. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    Absolutely.
     
  6. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    OK, I just remembered hearing that around the time he died.
    That's a fair point.
    Of course it wouldn't have been the only reason (or any reason based on the post I quoted earlier in the post) which was why I said part. Obviously, it's going to take a lot more than just that to lead him to the point he got to.
     
  7. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think Stark was any more of a villain than Rogers
     
  8. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Premium Member

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    I think they did a good job of showing that Tony and Cap both think they're right based on their own experiences and personality.
     
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  9. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To some extent but I always felt it was rushed. And tbh Steve felt narrow minded to me. Like everyone else in the world's opinion didn't matter. He's usually more agreeable in other appearances
     
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  10. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think this is a case where who you felt was the villain depended on who you agreed with more.
     
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  11. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I mean, I didn't agree with Tony trying to kill Bucky. Or flouting the rules he was enforcing

    But that's my issue with any hero who tries to enforce the law while not following it. Or saying the government shouldn't launch a war before they happen while doing it themselves
     
  12. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The opinion of those on the opposite side were wrong on endless levels. From Project Insight to the Accords, Rogers called out government authoritarianism / human rights abuse under the guise of security and freedom. The Accords were founded on an attempt to control (and weaponize when "authorized") individuals, despite Ross trying (and failing) to sell the foundation of said Accords as a means to stop "out of control" superhumans. One of Civil War's great failings was the script not having Rogers lay out the BS of every charge Ross made against the Avengers:
    • New York: Okay, the W.S.C. sent a nuclear missile against innocent civilians. Was that a reasonable alternative to superhuman intervention? Who was going to be held responsible for the millions who would died from a nuclear strike? Moreover, the Avengers were not a rogue group, but created and authorized to act by Fury--the head of a government organization, so their actions could not be more official.
    • Washington: Rogers and his team stopped what would have been global mass murder from a terrorist organization controlling SHIELD. There were no options to Rogers' actions, and if he sat on his hands, waiting for some authorization from on high...
    • Sokovia: Stark and only Stark. He was responsible for the entire disaster, and should have been called out. Instead, the writers--to create false drama--have no one turn one of the key inspirations for the Accords on the one responsible for the catastrophe. They (the other Avengers) allowed Stark to turn government screws on his alleged friends / allies in an attempt to remove the yoke of guilt from his conscience.
    If Rogers (or anyone else) laid out the details of why the Accords were BS masking world governments wanting to control superbeings for incidents they (with the exception of Stark) did not cause, Captain America: Civil War would have been reduced to a 40-minute film called Captain America: Heated Discussion or Captain America: You Would've Been Pushing Up Daisies Without Us, but the writers used false drama that was easy to point out when the film was in theaters.
     
  13. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Telling superheroes they can't beat up or destroy whatever they want isn't human rights abuse or authoritarianism. It's oversight. That can go wrong but vigilantes aren't an oppressed group despite Marvel always acting that way.
     
  14. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Banner could also be considered culpable, as they created Ultron together.
     
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  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
     
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  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Sentry has got a Jeykll and Hyde thing going on, so his alternate could as easily be played by some one else, even if they want to stretch out the reveal over the course of several movies.
     
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  17. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Jekyll & Hyde could be cool. I hope it's done well. But I don't like half the Thunderbolts roster so I'm not enthused just yet
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was rushed and ignored the camaraderie built between the team members, and makes Steve extremely myopic while Stark becomes the kine toeing rule follower to go against Steve.

    It ignores much lf the character development of the past several films and insists that dramatic rules must be followed.
    Pretty much this.
     
  19. MikHutch

    MikHutch Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    While it's definitely less edgy than the comics version, it misses the nuance of the issue by needlessly conflating oversight with fascism. As if vigilantism can't be fascistic too
     
  20. Skipper

    Skipper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You know, I've read how Europeans (also because of their recent history) often find it disturbing how Americans discuss someone's ethnicity until they get to the percentages of this or that genetic strain.

    Now I'm starting to understand them.