Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

What grade would you give the Marvel Cinematic Universe? (Ever-Changing Question)


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There will only be one Marvel theatrical release in 2024, and I do expect Deadpool 3 to bring in the business. Hopefully that will give the public a bit of a breather and rekindle interest.
Don't forget Sony's marvel offering in 2024, Madame Web, Venom and Kraven.
 
pre Infinity War (obviously minus the end credit)
I don't think you can do that, I think there's a specific rule that says every movie has to include end credits. I guess if they want they could put them all at the beginning, but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be annoyed if they have to sit through 10-15 minutes of credits before the movie starts.
My problem with the Disney + Marvel programming is they don't stream all of the episodes at once. I'm not interested in those characters that much to invest my time to wait every week to see the show. I believe these programs would do a lot better, ratings wise, if they went with the Netflix format; there I can watch 2 maybe 3 or 4 episodes at a time and if I really enjoy it... like STRANGER THINGS, I'll re-watch immediately and chat with my friends about it.
I hate when shows release the full season all at once. I can only take watching one or two episodes of the same show at a time, and often times only watch a show every two or three days. It makes it really hard for me to do anything online when everybody else has finished a show and I'm only half way through. If I'm careful I can usually avoid to many spoilers, but every now and then someone on here will slip or a news site will put one in a headline with no warning. At least with weekly releases the majority of people are at the same point at the same time.
 
I don't think you can do that, I think there's a specific rule that says every movie has to include end credits. I guess if they want they could put them all at the beginning, but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be annoyed if they have to sit through 10-15 minutes of credits before the movie starts.

In the early decades of motion pictures, all the credits were at the start, except for a reprise of the cast list at the end in many cases. In the '60s-'70s, with credits getting longer as more unions won the right to screen credit, they started splitting the credits, putting the "above the line" credits (the people who got residuals) at the start and the "below the line" credits at the end. George Lucas actually had to pay a fine for not putting any credits at the opening of Star Wars, IIRC, but in the '80s-'90s it became increasingly common to put all the credits at the end, and now it's rare to see opening credits at all.

Really, though, the elaborate graphics and animations and whatnot that we tend to get these days for the initial above-the-line credits (the stuff before the mid-credit scene, these days) are comparable to the elaborate opening title sequences that many films used to have. I often wish they'd just put them at the front, which is where I still feel those credits are supposed to go. I wasn't as fond of Guardians of the Galaxy as most people, but I appreciated it for having a proper main title sequence.
 
This came up on another forum, so I thought I'd put my two cents here about how I would have done the post-Endgame stuff differently (up through to next year):

2021:
  • Black Widow: Keep, but rework into a movie about Clint/Natasha's misadventure in Budapest - a prequel filling out a good deal of their backstories. Yelena can still be introduced here, with minor changes. Frame it with present-day scenes from Clint remembering his friend at the beginning/end, so it's not fully a prequel
  • Shang-Chi: Worked pretty much fine as is, though I'd personally save some money by cutting the pointless dragon fight.
  • Spider-Man: No Way Home: Keep as is, basically
(No Eternals)
  • WandaVision: Stripped-down version without the weird veer to Agatha as a villain, letting the story focus on Wanda's grief and more clearly set up Multiverse of Madness.
  • Hawkeye: Done as a holiday "TV movie" for Disney+ rather than as a miniseries, stripped down to the essentials (meaning no Yelena, no Echo, etc).
(No What if...?)

2022:
  • Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness: Polish the script and integrate it better with WandaVision.
  • Untitled Captain America: Stripped-down version of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier for theatrical release, with John Walker as the villain.
  • Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Ditch Riri and the stupid Allegra de Fontaine stuff, which seemed only there to set up Thunderbolts
(No Thor, Love and Thunder)
  • Ms. Marvel: Same length, but cut out the whole Clandestine subplot and have it focus on her as a street-level superhero, her family, and her mosque, with Damage Control as the only antagonist.
  • Loki: Seasons 1/2 combined to form a single arc, with maybe nine episodes.
(No GOTG Holiday Special...I liked it, but it was also kinda pointless)

2023:
  • GOTG 3: Fine as is.
  • Secret Invasion: Heavily reworked version of the original show as a feature-length ensemble film, which allows them to bring back in a number of legacy MCU characters. I'd also combine elements of the Marvels here, to have the whole Krull/Skree arc settled, meaning Brie Larson could have a role here.
  • Deadpool 3: Less projects means this can be brought up in production order.
(No Quantumania, no The Marvels)
  • She-Hulk: Pushed back a year, but otherwise, worked fine as is.
  • Moon Knight: Pushed back a year, and turned into a "TV movie" rather than a full miniseries.
  • Werewolf by Night: Keep as it was, but a year later.
2024:
  • Midnight Suns: Pay off the "MCU Dark Universe" arc slowly being introduced by having Moon Knight, Werewolf by Night, and Blade (introduced here) in an ensemble feature. Dr. Strange/Wong would appear as supporting characters as well.
  • Captain America: Brave New World: If Sam is the unofficial leader of the New Avengers, three years is enough time to wait before reintroducing.
  • Fantastic Four: Presuming it can be brought up, with less stuff going on.

  • Young Avengers: Get Kate Bishop, America Chavez, Yelena, Kamala, etc. to team up. Perfect for a Disney+ show, but not a feature.
  • Daredevil: Born Again: Presuming they can come up with a good script idea.
 
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever: Ditch Riri

As I keep saying, without Riri, there is no story. If the vibranium detector is invented by some government scientist or team of engineers, then Shuri has no reason to pit herself against Namor, since they'd basically be on the same side. What drives the story is that Namor is trying to kill someone who embodies T'Challa's vision and reminds Shuri of herself, which is what makes Shuri (and Ramonda) so driven to protect her.

Also, Dominique Thorne is really fun and effective in the role.


Ms. Marvel: Same length, but cut out the whole Clandestine subplot and have it focus on her as a street-level superhero, her family, and her mosque, with Damage Control as the only antagonist.

I'm of two minds on this. I could've done without the interdimensional threat to the Earth, and I do wish they'd spent more time on Ms. Marvel in Jersey City, but the journey to Pakistan was a vital and meaningful part of the story, one of the MCU's greatest achievements in using its popularity as a bully pulpit to educate the public about non-Western cultures and history. With the luxury of hindsight, one could say that maybe it would've been better saved for a second season, but they didn't know if they'd get a second season. For me, the ideal would've been to lengthen the season, have more episodes in Jersey before the Pakistan journey.
 
Killing off King T'Challa was one of their biggest Phase 4 mistakes. I was all for a recast to keep the character alive, after all the work that Boseman put into it.

The character was too important. He probably would have succeeded Tony and Steve as the central figure of the MCU going forward, and the franchise needed that.

The merchandising success alone for BP 2017 was through the roof. Taking Black Panther/T'Challa out of the equation killed a lot of the positive momentum from the first film.

This came up on another forum, so I thought I'd put my two cents here about how I would have done the post-Endgame stuff differently (up through to next year):

I would have just kicked things off with Thunderbolts. Go big or go home. No need to build up into it. You already have Bucky (team leader), Ross and Zemo in play.

Just use the film to introduce Florence Pugh, John Walker and a proper comic accurate Taskmaster perhaps. Have the film be a political thriller in a post-blip world, getting audiences used to the new state of the MCU.

Phase 4 needed to lead with confidence. However, for the most part, it just meandered without a direction.
 
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I've revised and refined my MCU Viewing Order in order to keep the number of films that were/have been/will be released in each official Phase identical to real life, swapping things in,out, and around as necessary in order to create narrative cohesion and 'flow'.
Phase 1
  1. Iron Man
  2. Iron Man 2
  3. The Incredible Hulk
  4. Thor
  5. Captain America: The First Avenger
  6. The Avengers
Phase 2
  1. Iron Man 3
  2. Thor: The Dark World
  3. Guardians of the Galaxy
  4. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (Moved from Phase 3)
  5. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
  6. Avengers: Age of Ultron
Phase 3
  1. Ant-Man (Moved from Phase 2)
  2. Captain America: Civil War
  3. Black Panther
  4. Spider-Man: Homecoming
  5. Black Widow (Moved from Phase 4)
  6. Doctor Strange
  7. Thor: Ragnarok
  8. Avengers: Infinity War
  9. Captain Marvel
  10. Ant-Man and The Wasp
  11. Avengers: Endgame
Phase 4
  1. Thor: Love and Thunder
  2. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 (Moved from Phase 5)
  3. Spider-Man: Far From Home (Moved from Phase 3)
  4. Spider-Man: No Way Home
  5. Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
  6. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings
  7. Eternals
Phase 5
  1. Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (Moved from Phase 4)
  2. Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania
  3. The Marvels
I don't think there are any major narrative discrepancies here, but if there are, I'd like to know where changes need to be made.
 
Don't forget Sony's marvel offering in 2024, Madame Web, Venom and Kraven.
Kraven looks interesting. The rest I don’t really care about.
The only TV series outside of the Netflix Marvel ones that I’ve liked has been Hawkeye.
It’s more burn out on over a decade of super hero flicks that I don’t care anymore. A new one could come out and be great, and I’d still wait for it to hit streaming.
 
I almost (almost) feel sorry for these people who've devoted their lives to churning out fake scoops and guesswork. Must be hard to keep throwing this crap out even while Hollywood has ground to a halt.

Is Business Insider reliable?

https://www.insider.com/taika-waititi-wont-be-involved-thor-5-2023-11


Business Insider spoke to Waititi on Monday while he was doing press for his new movie, "Next Goal Wins," out Friday, and asked him directly.

"I wouldn't know if that's accurate," Waititi tells BI. "I know that I won't be involved.
 
I don't think you can do that, I think there's a specific rule that says every movie has to include end credits. I guess if they want they could put them all at the beginning, but I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be annoyed if they have to sit through 10-15 minutes of credits before the movie starts.

Sure, but it doesn't need to be the scene we got. A scene of Team Cap hanging out in Wakanda and Vision turns up or something.
 
Killing off King T'Challa was one of their biggest Phase 4 mistakes. I was all for a recast to keep the character alive, after all the work that Boseman put into it.

The real world element: recasting a character made very famous by a man who tragically passed away too soon (arguably, Boseman did more to popularize BP--a character with a thin media and merchandising history at best--than any other actor involved with the MCU), and the impression made on certain movie-going audiences seeing him (Boseman) as an icon all but guaranteed that the T'Challa version of BP was not going to continue.
 
Venom 3 hasn't filmed yet, so the odds of it coming out next year are slim.

I've revised and refined my MCU Viewing Order
Okay, but isn't this a speculation thread to discuss the MCU's future, not a rewatch thread? ;)

The Avengers might not [need another Hawkeye], but the Young Avengers do since the whole point of the team is that they are all or mostly younger counterparts to the Avengers.
Replicating what was successful before - creativity!

... Creativity?


------------------------------

Anyhow, my modest suggestions for the MCU:

1) Simmer down: release no more than three movies and three seasons of live-action shows in any 12-month period. (1-2 Special Presentations, or even the odd low-key, low-stakes TV movie, can be extra.)

2) Better align D+ series airing with movie releases: granted, the pandemic messed things up, and the Disney brass wanted to get D+ up and running in a hurry, but WandaVision should have aired a few months before Multiverse of Madness, Ms. Marvel should have aired shortly before The Marvels, and Ironheart should have come out shortly after Wakanda Forever. Not every show has to directly correlate with a movie release - Loki, She-Hulk, and Daredevil can be more flexible - but maybe roughly half of them should; the current schedule is way too haphazard.

3) Don't introduce major movie characters on D+: whether we like it or not, movies still capture much more general audience interest than shows - they get bigger advertising pushes, more media coverage, and they plain feel bigger, even though their production budgets may be similar and runtimes are of course shorter. Ergo, Carol's second movie (assuming they had to make it in more or less its actual form at all) should have been promoted as a Captain Marvel sequel featuring supporting characters, not as a trio of equals team-up.

4) Answer basic questions: as I argued upthread, taking a long lead-up to the next Avengers movie was absolutely the correct movie, but the audience should just as definitely know what the basic status of the organization is by now. If SHIELD was an international organization (this was always a bit unclear), is SWORD a definitively American organization, as a response to the HYDRA crisis, or is it an international effort, too? Who leads it - Fury, someone else?

5) More connections: Shang-Chi should have been at Kamar-Taj at the end of Multiverse of Madness and told America "Welcome to the circus," like Wong told him. Kamala and friends should have at least discussed Spidey, who should ideally have made a cameo (even if his mask stayed on). The giant stone ocean baby should have had more than a She-Hulk onscreen clickbait reference, with at least Thor or Fury mentioning it. Maybe Shang-Chi should have been part of the dinner at the end of Quantumania, if only to quietly indicate he and Scott, as fellow San Franciscans, are now pals. Secret Invasion should have been a major crossover movie, or not attempted at all (probably that). A Shang-Chi (and ideally, also a Spidey) sequel should be farther along.
 
The real world element: recasting a character made very famous by a man who tragically passed away too soon (arguably, Boseman did more to popularize BP--a character with a thin media and merchandising history at best--than any other actor involved with the MCU), and the impression made on certain movie-going audiences seeing him (Boseman) as an icon all but guaranteed that the T'Challa version of BP was not going to continue.

Unceremoniously killing him off just undermines all of Boseman's work with the character. If audiences needed time to get over that version, they could have just temporarily benched T'Challa (with a recast down the line), rather than so definitively killing him off.

I think even Chadwick's brother said Chadwick wouldn't have wanted T'Challa buried with him. It just does so much damage to Black Panther (and the MCU) and now it shows.
 
Sure, but it doesn't need to be the scene we got. A scene of Team Cap hanging out in Wakanda and Vision turns up or something.
Oh, the post credits scene, I thought the post was about not showing the credits themselves.
Replicating what was successful before - creativity!

... Creativity?
Well, I believe the comics came out in a time where there were no Avengers, so the kids who made up the team were kind of meant to be their replacements. And they were all totally unique characters who just fit the adult Avengers archetypes, so it wasn't replicating what was successful before.
 
Unceremoniously killing him off

Good thing they didn't do that, then. They made entire movie dedicated to grief and consequence and the character's ongoing legacy.

Not sure what planet we're on where that is unceremonious.

Also, just to point out the obvious: at least part of killing off T'Challa the character in Wakanda Forever is about the cast, crew and everyone involved in the movie getting the chance to express their own grief and loss over Boseman. Whatever the potential issues raised by the creative decision, and regardless of whatever we perceive as the quality of the film, I'm not about to tell them that wasn't a thing they couldn't or shouldn't do.
 
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