Marqi did no wrong change my mind

[Shawnster]

More generally, is a nation allowed to cede territory to another nation, contrary to the wish of the (majority of) inhabitants living in that territory?

Allowed? The government makes the rules. Therefore, the government is allowed to do whatever it pleases. Some governments claim to be more democratic than others and, therefore, make efforts to at least appear to be accommodating to the people. Even then, sometimes governments are taken to court by the people because the governments actions may have been illegal. Sometimes the people even win.

On a local level this is called the right of imminent domain. The government can condemn a home, evict the owners (force them to move) and then use that property for another purpose.

Of course, international law is entirely different. Did the Cardassians have the legal authority to occupy Bajor? That's a joke. International treaties are definitely not beholden to the will of the citizens.

The number of Maquis seems insignificant compared to the total number of Federation (or Cardassian) citizens. They are definitely much less than 1%. There is no situation where one government will choose to continue armed conflict because less than 1 tenth of 1% of the citizens are not happy with the results of a peace treaty.

On an international scale governments are sovereign and will do as they please. They are the sole authority over where borders are drawn. The citizens opinions are ultimately irrelevant. As an African proverb says; "when elephants fight, even the grass gets trampled".

Spoiler

See Florida colonization, the Republic of Texas, the Confederate States of America, Indian Wars, Trail of Tears, Berlin Wall, Vietnam Conflict, Korean Conflict

 

[at Quark's]

Allowed? The government makes the rules. Therefore, the government is allowed to do whatever it pleases. Some governments claim to be more democratic than others and, therefore, make efforts to at least appear to be accommodating to the people. Even then, sometimes governments are taken to court by the people because the governments actions may have been illegal. Sometimes the people even win.

On a local level this is called the right of imminent domain. The government can condemn a home, evict the owners (force them to move) and then use that property for another purpose.

Of course, international law is entirely different. Did the Cardassians have the legal authority to occupy Bajor? That's a joke. International treaties are definitely not beholden to the will of the citizens.

The number of Maquis seems insignificant compared to the total number of Federation (or Cardassian) citizens. They are definitely much less than 1%. There is no situation where one government will choose to continue armed conflict because less than 1 tenth of 1% of the citizens are not happy with the results of a peace treaty.

On an international scale governments are sovereign and will do as they please. They are the sole authority over where borders are drawn. The citizens opinions are ultimately irrelevant. As an African
proverb says; "when elephants fight, even the grass gets trampled".

Spoiler

See Florida colonization, the Republic of Texas, the Confederate States of America, Indian Wars, Trail of Tears, Berlin Wall, Vietnam Conflict, Korean Conflict

That;s true from a realist / legalist viewpoint I suppose. I intended my question a bit more philosophically: should the government cede a territory when inhabitants of said territory clearly don't agree?

And government is the sole power is only true as long as the people decide not to stand up against it. If it weren't, no separatist movement would ever have formed its own country, and the USA would have been a colony until granted independence from England out of the goodness of their hearts .

 

[Brennyren]

However it's possible some evolved a belief that no other ground would do, that no other planet, no matter how good the place was - could possibly ever be a complete replacement to their 'sacred' home ground.

In fact, this was exactly the case with the inhabitants in :"Journey's End." Which, if memory serves, was originally intended to be Chakotay's home planet.

 

[Forbin]

The Marqi were allied with the Mimbari.
I don't know why it's so hard to get them right after all this time.
Then again, I can never get the H in the right place in Kahn. Khan.
And forget about ever spelling K'aylahr. Wasn't she the Cowardly Lion's wife?
But I can pronounce them right anyway, so if it's conversation instead of typing I'm okay.

 

[Nyotarules]

More generally, is a nation allowed to cede territory to another nation, contrary to the wish of the (majority of) inhabitants living in that territory?

Ask Scotland

 

[1001001]

Dammit I'm abit drunk and forgot the U could someone change that in the title and also not to nothing?

I think we should leave it as an object lesson in drunk posting.

Don't let this happen to you!

 

[Crazyewok]

I think we should leave it as an object lesson in drunk posting.

Don't let this happen to you!

Good point

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

should the government cede a territory when inhabitants of said territory clearly don't agree?

When the alternative is war, then hell yeah, they should.

That's why the Federation made this treaty, and ceded the territory that it did. To prevent another war with Cardassia. A few hundred colonists are, dare I say, insignificant when faced with this greater threat.

That said, whenever the subject of the Maquis comes up, I can't stop thinking about one thing: What happened to those colonists in the DMZ who refused to join the fighting? You KNOW there were some. I can't help wondering how the Maquis would react. Groups like that rarely take kindly to those who won't join "The Struggle"...

And I still think it's hilarious when Eddington kept claiming that the Maquis wanted to secede and form their own state. Not only do groups like this not BELIEVE in a "state" to begin with, but even if they did, Federation law specifically allows for members to secede if they choose to do so. That's not why the Federation had it in for the Maquis. It was because the Maquis threatened to provoke another war!

 

[Shawnster]

That;s true from a realist / legalist viewpoint I suppose. I intended my question a bit more philosophically: should the government cede a territory when inhabitants of said territory clearly don't agree?

Trying to add morality to politics is a fools errand. War is immoral, yet invasions and occupations continue. With this in mind, should becomes ambiguous.

Plus, there is another factor to consider, and that is the "needs of the many". If the best way or only way to reach a peace agreement with the Cardassians was to redraw the border and displace a few hundred thousand people, then isn't that a better solution than continuing an armed conflict that would cost the lives of a few hundred million people?

And government is the sole power is only true as long as the people decide not to stand up against it. If it weren't, no separatist movement would ever have formed its own country, and the USA would have been a colony until granted independence from England out of the goodness of their hearts .

True. And the Maquis, once abandoned by the Federation, were Cardassian citizens in Cardassian territory. If they wanted to rise up against their new overlords and form a new nation, how was that the Federation's problem?

The difficulty was the Maquis still felt like they were still Federation citizens and that their government abandoned them. People in the Federation likewise felt the same. The Cardassians, for some reason, felt it was the Federation's responsibility to control the Maquis and stop their insurgency.

Another problem, from a purely plot point of view, is we never saw the opposite depicted. We never saw stories about Cardassians who were suddenly placed in Federation territory and abandoned by the Cardassians Union. Did they form resistance and armed insurgency?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The problem with this argument is that it ignores that the Maquis evolved from just being an effort to counter (if not simply counterattack) Cardassian policies in the Cardassian zone. The Federation citizens, who we presume are those that founded the movement (not clear that this is true), are led by people who were not originally settlers in the zone. Cal Hudson was not a colonist. Michael Eddington was not a colonist. Many of those who joined, whom we see in the vanguard of the fight, were not colonists. Tom Paris was not a colonist. B'Elanna Torres was not a colonist. It's never made entirely clear whether or not Chakotay was a colonist in what became the DMZ (Memory Alpha says he was born near the zone). Many of the critiques that these people make are about corruption of the Federation, not directly referencing the situation in the DMZ. Many of those who joined simply wanted to rebel against the culture(s) of the Federation: it was not necessarily a political movement, but a counter-culture.

Simply put, the Maquis was not entirely the face of the settlers who found themselves within the Cardassian DMZ. Eddington was their leader, and he elucidated their philosophy in the end. He was not entirely interested in defending the interests of the settlers, but instead, he put his own grudges first. His vision was not simply defending ,the rights of the colonists. He wanted to found a government that would thumb its nose at the Federation. The fact that he developed, or directs the Maquis to develop, a genocidal shows how much the Maquis had been subsumed under his vision of an space in which the population, through ethnic cleansing, would be free of the people whom they see as oppressing them. Whatever the Maquis started out being, it evolved into a pariah that could only be opposed at every level.

 

[Orphalesion]

They had the option to relocate and plant their damn tomatoes somewhere else.

It's big Federation, a big universe, with lots of planets.

The Federation should have never ceded those planets in the first place, but once it was done they were stupid to remain and have no sympathy from me.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

He wanted to found a government that would thumb its nose at the Federation.

What Eddington failed to grasp in that regard was the simple fact that the Federation doesn't care about such things.

Like I said, the right of a member world to secede is specifically enshrined in Federation law. So it's not like Eddington's intention to secede is going to be taken personally. The Federation will be more like "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." Or would have, if Eddington and his ilk hadn't been, you know, genocidal terrorists and all that.

You cannot thumb your nose at a person or entity which does not care if you do so. The desired effect will simply never materialize.

 

[at Quark's]

Trying to add morality to politics is a fools errand. War is immoral, yet invasions and occupations continue. With this in mind, should becomes ambiguous.

Plus, there is another factor to consider, and that is the "needs of the many". If the best way or only way to reach a peace agreement with the Cardassians was to redraw the border and displace a few hundred thousand people, then isn't that a better solution than continuing an armed conflict that would cost the lives of a few hundred million people?

Yeah, I agree that from a purely political standpoint that would be the sensible thing to do.

Then again, that is exactly what Picard protested against in Insurrection, AFAIK the only difference being that those people never had been Federation Citizens. (But neither were they natives of the planets, and their planet could very well have been located in an area that was considered under general Federeation jurisdiction).

True. And the Maquis, once abandoned by the Federation, were Cardassian citizens in Cardassian territory. If they wanted to rise up against their new overlords and form a new nation, how was that the Federation's problem?

Officially, the Federation would not have been to blame. But in reality, of course the colonists would have had no choice to relocate or to accept Cardassian overlordship as a band of colonists should have had no chance in hell against an entire state with a professional military, even if that military was a second rate power. Except perhaps by playing dirty like they did and even then they'd probably have lost, given some time.

The difficulty was the Maquis still felt like they were still Federation citizens and that their government abandoned them. People in the Federation likewise felt the same. The Cardassians, for some reason, felt it was the Federation's responsibility to control the Maquis and stop their insurgency.

So the strange thing is that all parties still felt it was the Federation's responsibility to do something about the situation in some way, even after they had forfeited their citizenship. Cardassians, Federation, Maquis themselves and their supporters within the Federation.

Another problem, from a purely plot point of view, is we never saw the opposite depicted. We never saw stories about Cardassians who were suddenly placed in Federation territory and abandoned by the Cardassians Union. Did they form resistance and armed insurgency?

In Eddington's words: Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. I suppose those poor Cardassian colonist souls never even realised they were being assimilated

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In Eddington's words: Nobody leaves paradise.

Which has already been proven false.

Everyone should want to be in the Federation.

Also false.

I mean, I'm sure the Federation likes it when new members join, but if they choose not to, that's also fine. If a world doesn't want to join, it doesn't have to! If Eddington stubbornly insists otherwise, he's just being a dick.

 

[at Quark's]

^I don't care whether he was right or wrong, as I was only joking.

I agree it would have been interesting to see the situation of those Cardassia-abandoned Cardassian Colonists, too.

 

[USS Firefly]

For me it would have been a easy choice. My home is with my kids and wife, and I don't care where it is

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Like I said, the right of a member world to secede is specifically enshrined in Federation law.

By what mechanism?

Once the treaty was signed, those colonies were under the jurisdiction of Cardassian law, and the existence of a Cardassian constitution that enshrines any rights should be in extreme doubt. Even within the Federation constitution, it is not clear whether or not a government can unilaterally secede or if this right belongs to planets other than those who were admitted directly, rather than those who were founded within the Federation. Is any colony a member of the Federation council, or is it only those unified planets that petition to join? Depending on how secession is framed, the Federation likely has lots of leeway in determining how it happens, and it can express itself if secession would cause diplomatic problems or if it would cause hardships for those who would choose not to secede, even if those people were in the minority.

Whatever Eddington doesn't understand, he is the Maquis' leader. They follow him. They have arguable adopted his worldview.

 

[Tenacity]

The Federation literally gave peoples homes over to xenophobic Facist lizards

Part of the territory went to the Cardassians, other parts (equal parts?) went to the Federation. It's not like the Cardassians got all the disputed territory.

More generally, is a nation allowed to cede territory to another nation, contrary to the wish of the (majority of) inhabitants living in that territory?

It wouldn't be just up to those living in the territory, more a collective decision of the Federations citizens. The people from the territory did have representatives at the negotiations.

the government is allowed to do whatever it pleases

Some types of governments, but is the Federation one of those types of governments?

Years ago Russia sold Alaska to America, today if the reverse were seriously attempted government officials in America would be removed from office.

 

[Orphalesion]

For me it would have been a easy choice. My home is with my kids and wife, and I don't care where it is

I care about three things for my home 1)being with people I feel friendship/love for 2)being somewhere that's reasonably beautiful 3)being somewhere that isn't freezing cold.
And I'm sure all three of those things are readily available in the Federation, especially if my family/friendgroup/colony relocates together (which I am certain was within the options)
So I see no reason to sit on some specific planet that is now within Cardassian space and fight some ridiculous guerilla war for it.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Another problem, from a purely plot point of view, is we never saw the opposite depicted. We never saw stories about Cardassians who were suddenly placed in Federation territory and abandoned by the Cardassians Union. Did they form resistance and armed insurgency?

With the nature of the Cardassian government at the time, I suspect it was a case of the local government representatives saying to the colonists that their planets were being ceded to the Federation in a territory exchange, so pack your things, we're relocating you... and the colonists did pack up and allow themselves to be relocated, because they knew what the government did to dissidents.

The Federation probably received a handful of depopulated planets, and so a Cardassian equivalent to the Maquis was never something they had to worry about.