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Markings on saucer section of NCC-1701

Mr. Brown,
I think you have a flawed understanding of what causes aerodynamic lift that came from the way it's taught in elementary school.
So, you studied aeronautical engineering and have worked for aerospace companies? You have hardware you designed flying right now?

How many airfoils have you, personally, designed?

How much "wind tunnel" time do you have under your belt?

You really might want to spend a little time looking at the pedigree of the person you're talking about before you make that sort of comment.
Lift is not entirely caused by the higher velocity of fluid on the upper surface. Yes Bernoulli's principle does tell us that a faster fluid has a lower pressure. Most of the lift on an airfoil is caused by flow turning. They way you explained an airfoil does not allow for inverted flight. An airfoil DOES NOT have to have a longer surface on top. As a matter of fact the supercritical airfoil has the longer surface on the bottom. http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/airfoils/supercritical/whitcomb.gif

You'll want to read this NASA page, they can explain it better than I.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/wrong1.html

The point I was trying to make earlier is if you can get it to move with enough airspeed and give it an angle of attack then it will produce lift.
And if you'd bothered to read my entire post, you would have noted that I actually discussed the very point you seem to think I'm somehow "missing." (Go back and look for a recommendation that those who don't understand this put their hand out their car window while driving.)

And the very issue with the "supercritical" design you show is defined when you look at the airflow over the surface. I simply didn't think it was appropriate to get into detailed discussions of turbulence, and of boundary layer effects, in this sort of a forum.

Seriously... accusing me of having a "elementary school" understanding of this is an insult. A weak, unsuccessful one, but still an insult.

This forum has quite a few very smart people who post here regularly. You should show a bit more thought about your choice of words.
 
I am but a humble sheetmetal mechanic and a programmer of CNC equipment and even I understand what Mr. Brown is saying.

The saucer was designed with a 1950s understanding of aeronautics one that has clearly been disproved over the years. Don't believe us, make a model and take it to your local university's wind tunnel and test it.

I believe someone actually did test the Classic Enterprise in a wind tunnel once and found that it had all of the charm of a brick from an aerodynamic standpoint.
 
Arent there RC models of the 1701 around? I can remember a prop driven one and it flew, did wobble like hell and turning ability was abominable but it flew.
 
You know, if they were setting out to disprove the aerodynamics of the Enterprise, it would have helped to have something APPROACHING an accurate model. That one.. was not. (Next, they'll prove the aerodynamics of the space shuttle by using a Transformers: Energon Jetfire toy!)
 
Nobody every intended the 1701 to be "aerodynamic." THIS WAS NEVER THE INTENT. It was designed to be a spaceship, and part of the concept behind her was to avoid all the "traditional trappings of sci-fi," which included (but was not limited to) fins and wings and pseudo-aeronautical elements, of the sort that you'd see on "Rocky Jones, Space Ranger" ships.

I grant that it's possible that at some point, very early on, M.J. probably thought about putting the C57D saucer (or some "descendent" of that saucer) into the Enterprise design. And that certainly seems to carry through in the "triangles" which we're still, hypothetically, talking about..

It's also quite clear from M.J's drawings that he never envisioned the undercut. His own cross-section has no undercut, but rather had two full deck heights through the entire saucer disk element.

I suspect that the decision to implement the "undercut" was because of the shadow effect that it gave which helps differentiate between the edge and underside of the disk... something which, otherwise, is quite a bit harder to make out under many lighting conditions.

That, I'm convinced, is why it was REALLY done.

Now, as for why it was done as an "in-universe" explanation... aerodynamics simply doesn't hold up." There are all other possible explanations we can make up. All sorts of "magical" technology which doesn't really exist which we can associate with this. Hey, maybe it helps with the sensor system? Maybe it's associated with generating the deflector shields? Maybe it "improves warp dynamics?"

Those are all make-believe, so any of them "could be true." But as far as aerodynamics goes... that's one explanation we simply have to take off the table. Because that's a REAL science, and it's one that is well-understood. I studied the science myself, have devoted many hours in massive wind tunnel facilities, and have equipment which I have been responsible for the design of flying on several high-range military aircraft (including the F22 Raptor, T-38 2004 refit, and E-2C "Hawkeye 2000" and E-2D) and have spent a significant part of my decades working as an engineer in this very field, though, granted, at the moment my job is in a different arena, as the senior Mechanical Engineer for Valence Technologies, not directly in the aerospace arena.

Lots of us have dealt with this science. It's not ... forgive the pun... exactly "rocket science." ;)

I've fun many calculations, using the same concepts I've discussed here, tested them experimentally, and found that the reality and the experimental data match. So, I'm sure, have several other folks here. And lots of other folks who've never posted on this BBS have performed similar experimentation.

Face it... the 1701 isn't aerodynamic, either by intent or by "happenstance."

Could it "fly" in an atmosphere? Sure... under constant power, and constant correction. If the F-111 can fly (and realize that this aircraft design is TOTALLY unstable!), the 1701 can do so if it's "under control." It doesn't need to generate aerodynamic lift, it can just pitch up a bit and rely on a percentage of the impulse thrust to keep it in the air. Or it can rely on antigravity. Or it can rely on someone in the lower decks sacrificing a freaking chicken! ;)

Nobody's saying that a powered starship can't manuever in an atmosphere. But I'd hate to have to GLIDE one in, unpowered.
 
So, you studied aeronautical engineering and have worked for aerospace companies? You have hardware you designed flying right now?

How many airfoils have you, personally, designed?

How much "wind tunnel" time do you have under your belt?

You really might want to spend a little time looking at the pedigree of the person you're talking about before you make that sort of comment.

...


Seriously... accusing me of having a "elementary school" understanding of this is an insult. A weak, unsuccessful one, but still an insult.

This forum has quite a few very smart people who post here regularly. You should show a bit more thought about your choice of words.
Very interesting reply. :rolleyes:
 
You know, if they were setting out to disprove the aerodynamics of the Enterprise, it would have helped to have something APPROACHING an accurate model. That one.. was not. (Next, they'll prove the aerodynamics of the space shuttle by using a Transformers: Energon Jetfire toy!)

I hoped that no one would take my post serious LOL, it sure wasn't intended to be. ;)
 
I hoped that no one would take my post serious LOL, it sure wasn't intended to be. ;)

Nah, I was surprised at how serious the page itself was taking itself (it was meant in fun, but they were concluding 'proof' here) ... They were taking themselves seriously enough that if they were going to prove anything, though should have at least used an accurate model. :P
 
Not completely on topic of the OP, but I've imagined (on some of my models) that the undercut was a prime area for extra windows. And even though there's no direct conclusive evidence, I recently suspected that the ship could have more windows- we just don't see them because the "doors- or shield plates" are closed, especially from a distance.

This would make those areas look like the rest of the ship structure from the outside when closed. I thought about that when I saw an episode (why can't I recall the name?!) where Kirk "opens" the plate covering a window. And it stuck in my head more so when Picard did the same thing in FC.

As for the actual topic, regardless of aerodynamics (in-story) or not, they must have had some kind of thruster or anti-grav assistance for what would be a pretty damned good and critical reason for landing the saucer.

Some people are mentioning that with enough thrust you can push anything through the air- and they may be right, but I suspect that is not what one wants to actually land a giant structure like the saucer.

I know my little drawing doesn't have much of a leg (HA!) to stand on, but if you subscribe to the camp that suspects that's what they're for, then that's probably what it would look like- just, ya know, better looking then my shite drawing.
 
I thought about that when I saw an episode (why can't I recall the name?!) where Kirk "opens" the plate covering a window.

"Mark of Gideon", with the supercrowded planet. The angle of the wall might suggest an upper secondary hull location...

And it stuck in my head more so when Picard did the same thing in FC.

The hole that Picard opened had no glass, only a forcefield - and the protecting hatch had a whole standalone console as a means of control! This suggests to me that this was no regular window, but an awfully important special access hole of some sort, only opened during maintenance or somesuch. All other windows on the ship looked more or less "conventional" and lacked hatches, although they probably had the ability to adjust transparency or color etc.

The idea of more windows on the TOS ship than meets the eye is fine with me. The idea of more windows on TNG ships is more problematic, because those ships already have a lot of windows, all of them wide open - it would be strange if there were shuttered ones in addition.

Timo Saloniemi
 
AH! Thank you, Timo. It bugs me to no end when I can't recall a Star Trek title. I agree with you completely about the location of that window. Though, just thinking about it, and I'd have to see the episode again to see the corridor, how about under the bridge?

As for FC's window- I know it wasn't a window in the traditional sense, but just called it that for the sake of argument. But now that you mention the convoluted nature of that "hole's" location, it does make more sense that it's specialized for some reason. The E-E has a lot of windows, but I can see more on that one. But I whole-heartedly agree that the D wouldn't have any hidden ones. I suspected though that because they tinted on the D, that they would in essence, disappear from view on an external perspective. Though again, no external physical evidence backs me up on that- I just suspect that some are black because some people just turn out the lights instead of tinting them out, like in "The Child"...

When I interpret something, I don't want it to be completely out of the realm of possibility despite any on screen conclusive evidence. It makes things more flexible...

That's why I'm more then willing to go with the markings under the hull being transporter arrays, or something for communication, but for the most part, I'm in the emergeny landing support structure, camp.
 
... It's also quite clear from M.J's drawings that he never envisioned the undercut...

This is incorrect.

A curve or undercut on the saucer bottom can be seen in this image and this one too. It is less clear in this image, but I think it is there.
Hi Sonic...

None of those images are of the "final" design which MJ produced, of course. And only in the first one is any real "undercut" visible (though you're correct, it is clearly indicated by his "section lines")

Look, however, at the cross-section view which MJ produced (if you have a copy of "The Making of Star Trek" you can find it in the middle section... among many other places, of course).

There, it is clear that he intended full-deck-height throughout the section. Or, I suppose, you could conclude that he screwed up royally in creating that section view. But you can't have it both ways.

That's what I was talking about.
 
Though, just thinking about it, and I'd have to see the episode again to see the corridor, how about under the bridge?

Quite possibly, yeah. And it might be easier to furnish the interiors of that part of the ship if we assumed there were more windows there than the ones that glow yellow, only shuttered most of the time.

As per the plotline, Kirk and Odona ride down from the bridge in a turbolift, in order to find a medical kit. Kirk could plausibly be heading for Deck 2 and, say, his personal office there - or for Deck 3 which might hold McCoy's cabin, by some interpretations of his doorsign. Deck 2 is also known to house guest quarters in "The Enterprise Incident". Whatever the deck, it has a curving corridor. (We saw one on Deck 3 in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", and never mind if one would plausibly fit in there.)

Kirk then hears a strange noise on that deck, and heads for a room outside the corridor, but we don't get to see his entire passage from the curved corridor to this room. The room has no furnishings within the camera's field of view, save for one of those orange grillework walls. The porthole that Kirk opens has a special control panel, something not seen next to Pike's window in "The Cage". Then again, we never really saw the windows of Kirk's ship from the inside... Perhaps such a panel is a standard fixture?

Timo Saloniemi
 
... It's also quite clear from M.J's drawings that he never envisioned the undercut...

This is incorrect.

A curve or undercut on the saucer bottom can be seen in this image and this one too. It is less clear in this image, but I think it is there.
Hi Sonic...

None of those images are of the "final" design which MJ produced, of course. And only in the first one is any real "undercut" visible (though you're correct, it is clearly indicated by his "section lines")

Look, however, at the cross-section view which MJ produced (if you have a copy of "The Making of Star Trek" you can find it in the middle section... among many other places, of course).

There, it is clear that he intended full-deck-height throughout the section. Or, I suppose, you could conclude that he screwed up royally in creating that section view. But you can't have it both ways.

That's what I was talking about.

I guess the question, then, is when he drew that cross-section.

Was it before the model was blueprinted or built? Or was it later when the production needed for some reason, like in the writers' guide or to show onscreen? If it was drawn later, then MJ simply took some liberties with that particular drawing for some reason.

And you're right that the images I posted aren't the final design, but they show that MJ had a curved saucer bottom on his mind for some time, including as an undercut at some points. It seems odd that he would draw the curve in preliminary designs and drop it in the final designs and yet it would still end up on the model.
 
For what it's worth...

STTOS_Drw_2Enterprises.jpg
 
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