Maquis and the Dominion War

[ProtoAvatar]

neozeks
About federation shields:
'the search' - two jem'hadar ships initially caught the defiant without shields and heavily damaged it. Defiant brought its shields back on-line; it destroyed one jem'hadar ship.
'starship down' - at the beginning of the fight, two jem'hadar ships exchanged weapons fire with a shields protected defiant. Defiant sustained minimal damage. Defiant destroyed its 2 opponents
'the die is cast' - multiple jem'hadar ships fired upon a shielded defiant (at one point, a formation composed of 3 ships) causing minimal damage. Defiant destroyed at least 5 enemy ships.

It's obvious that between 'the jem'hadar' and, at the latest, 'the die is cast', starfleet adapted its shields to resist dominion weapons - and it was largely successful. The shields were, by and large, holding - only a small amount of the weapons' energy was getting through.
The further adaptation from 'call to arms' was far from being a quantum leap - starfleet's shields went from stopping dominion weapons to stopping dominion weapons even better.

Also - defiant's bodycount is very impressive -it's FAR from being helpless.


About 'blaze of glory':
There were more 'relevant' scenes - Dukat's announcement, the scene between Eddington and Sisko in the runabout, the final discussionn between Sisko and Dax.

Quote them - only then we'll have all the informatin the episode gives about the genocide.

 

[neozeks]

neozeks
About federation shields:
'the search' - two jem'hadar ships initially caught the defiant without shields and heavily damaged it. Defiant brought its shields back on-line; it destroyed one jem'hadar ship.
'starship down' - at the beginning of the fight, two jem'hadar ships exchanged weapons fire with a shields protected defiant. Defiant sustained minimal damage. Defiant destroyed its 2 opponents
'the die is cast' - multiple jem'hadar ships fired upon a shielded defiant (at one point, a formation composed of 3 ships) causing minimal damage. Defiant destroyed at least 5 enemy ships.
It's obvious that between 'the jem'hadar' and, at the latest, 'the die is cast', starfleet adapted its shields to resist dominion weapons - and it was largely successful. The shields were, by and large, holding - only a small amount of the weapons' energy was getting through.
The further adaptation from 'call to arms' was far from being a quantum leap - starfleet's shields went from stopping dominion weapons to stopping dominion weapons even better.

Also - defiant's bodycount is very impressive -it's FAR from being helpless.

Ah, but remember, as soon as 'Past Tense' (which is before 'The Die is Cast') and possibly from the very start, Defiant is mentioned to have ablative armor, which is hardly your standard piece of Starfleet technology (I very much doubt all those Mirandas and Excelsiors had it or were able to be fitted with it). Combined with it's above-average firepower, speed and maneuverability (I just watched the battle from 'The Die is Cast' and it doges a LOT of enemy fire), that would explain why it's able to survive where your average Starfleet ship wouldn't.
Weyoun's lines are quite clear - he says the Feds shields had always been 'useless' and is quite surprised, as are the Cardassians. Granted, he may be exagerating a bit, but it seems the Doms clearly thought they had a decisive advantage there.

And sorry if I'm getting boring with this, but once again, if the Dominion wasn't stronger than them (thanks to superior numbers or more likely, technology) already with it's first wave of ships, why did the Klingons so hastily withdraw? Why not stay and fight?

About 'blaze of glory':
There were more 'relevant' scenes - Dukat's announcement, the scene between Eddington and Sisko in the runabout, the final discussionn between Sisko and Dax.

Quote them - only then we'll have all the informatin the episode gives about the genocide.

Ok.

EDDINGTON I wonder what happened to those tomato plants.
(bitter) Probably burned to the ground along with everything else.

EDDINGTON We were winning. The Cardassian Empire was falling into chaos. The Maquis colonies were going to declare themselves an independent nation.

DAX Is that what this is? The end of the Maquis?

SISKO Who knows? There could still be more of them out there, hiding from the Dominion, biding their time.

DUKAT My oldest son's birthday is in five days. To him and to Cardassians everywhere, I make the following pledge. By the time his birthday dawns, there will not be a single Klingon alive in Cardassian territory... or a single Maquis colony left inside our borders.

That's all I could find. I see nothing that precludes the posibility of Starfleet helping ordinary colonists in it's reach. You have all the scripts here http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/ds9/ if you would like to search for yourself.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

neozeks

About federation shields:
Ablative armour is not enough to provide the kind of protection the defiant enjoyed against the dominion ships. In 'way of the warrior' that same ablative armour failed after 2-3 shots from a klingon disruptor firing at 30% power.
The shields provide the primary protection. Ablative armour only a little more - which is probably why most starfleet ships don't have it.

And yes, the klingon expeditionary force was defeated by that first wave of dominion ships - which helped the cardassian fleet (the klingons proved quite a disappointment). It retreated to DS9, where Siski&co prepared to defend themselvs, confident they can win.
One of your fleets defeated at the hands of your enemy does not mean that, per total, you're weaker than him.

Tell me - if the federation/klingons could not have handled that first wave of dominion ships, how could they ever hold and defeat a cardassian/dominion fleet with thousands more ships and an infrastructure in peak condition?

Weyoun was surprised that starfleet managed to fully adapt its shields to dominion weapons - most likely, a rare occurence, even in the gamma quadrant conflcts.

During 'blaze of glory', you claim that the federation didn't protect its citizens because it didn't have the improved shields. But the federation couldn't have known it would ever get such shields - short of having clairvoyants in its employ.
When the dominion would inevitably attack, burning world after world, killing millions, should the federation retreat, covering in fear under the bed, hoping the 'bad guys' will go away, because it doesn't yet have improved shields and, maybe, it'll have them next month/year?
That's exactly what the federation did (with the difference that the dominnion "only" killed hundreds of thousands).

What the federation did was appeasement, letting its citizens get slaughtered becaue of its fear to confront the killers.

About 'maquis' colonies:
Apparently, the episode only mentions 'maquis colonies' aka men, women and children - federation citizens - living in colonies sympathetic toward the maquis. All of them were slaughtered - hundreds of thousands of them.

No mention is given to the colonies not sympathetic to the maquis - not then, not later. As far as DS9 scenarists are concerned, I suspect all federation colonies in the demilitarised zone are 'maquis colonies'.
But you could interpret them as existing, their citizens even surviving, if you wish.
It changes nothing to the death of so many people, to the federation cowardly betraying its obligation towards them.

 

[Myasishchev]

Is anyone else bothered by the existence (or at least the plausibility) of planet-killing cloaked missiles that are never mentioned again, let alone used during the war?

I mean, if that's the case, what kept the Klingons from just warping in and laying waste to Cardassia Prime in the first place? There is no such thing as a continuous front in space.

As for the OP, yeah, my feeling is that every Maquis that survived and who was willing joined Starfleet, and I suspect every Maquis was soon released owing to political pressure. If the Fed still used a rehabilitative/curative penal mode in the 24th century, they probably took "killing Cardies" out of the Federation DSM CXIV the day the war started.

 

[neozeks]

neozeks

About federation shields:
Ablative armour is not enough to provide the kind of protection the defiant enjoyed against the dominion ships. In 'way of the warrior' that same ablative armour failed after 2-3 shots from a klingon disruptor firing at 30% power.
The shields provide the primary protection. Ablative armour only a little more - which is probably why most starfleet ships don't have it.

Actually, I think it was 4 shots, 50% (yeah, I'm pedantic ) and it was the main disruptor of a big-ass Vorcha cruiser firing at practically point-blank range, not some smallish Jem'hadar bugs. Pretty good, I'd say.
And that's completely without shields. In the encounters with the Dominion they had shields as well (I don't think they were completely useless, just a lot less effective than ordinary).

It retreated to DS9, where Siski&co prepared to defend themselvs, confident they can win.
One of your fleets defeated at the hands of your enemy does not mean that, per total, you're weaker than him.

Actually. Gowron wanted to fall back all the way and fortify the Empire. Hardly confident behaviour or one typical of a Klingon - unless he had a reason to be scared.

Tell me - if the federation/klingons could not have handled that first wave of dominion ships, how could they ever hold and defeat a cardassian/dominion fleet with thousands more ships and an infrastructure in peak condition?

They had time to gather their forces (the UFP is a lot bigger than Cardassia) and adapt their shields.

During 'blaze of glory', you claim that the federation didn't protect its citizens because it didn't, have the improved shields. But the federation couldn't have known it would ever get such shields - short of having clairvoyants in its employ.

I'm pretty sure that at that very moment top Federation scientists were working on the Dominion ship captured in 'The Ship', developing a countermeasure. Unfortunately, too late for the Maquis.

About 'maquis' colonies:
Apparently, the episode only mentions 'maquis colonies' aka men, women and children - federation citizens - living in colonies sympathetic toward the maquis. All of them were slaughtered - hundreds of thousands of them.

No mention is given to the colonies not sympathetic to the maquis - not then, not later. As far as DS9 scenarists are concerned, I suspect all federation colonies in the demilitarised zone are 'maquis colonies'.

Well, the thing is all we're going on here is disconnected material from a bunch of episodes written independently and sometimes in contradiction of each other. We can't even be sure the Maquis (or all of them) were citizens. In TNG 'Journey's End' it's made clear that the colonists willingly abandoned their citizenship and agreed to Cardassian rule.

PICARD
Anthwara... I want to make
absolutely sure you understand the
implications of this agreement.
By giving up your status as
Federation citizens... any future
request you or your people make
for assistance from Starfleet will
go unanswered. You will be on
your own... and under Cardassian
jurisdiction.
ANTHWARA
I understand, Captain. And we are
prepared to take that risk.

And in 'For the Cause', Eddington says Cassidy wouldn't be a UFP citizen if she was a Maquis.Yet other times, the Maquis are called Federation citizens.

It's quite confusing. I'd say it's like this: the DMZ itself is divided into the UFP side and a Cardassian side. The Federation colonists on the Cardie side are not UFP citizens but Cardassian citizens. The colonists on the UFP side are Federation citizens. Maquis come from both sides but probably most from the Cardie side. I suspect Dukat only destroyed the colonies on his own side of the DMZ (he said 'within Cardassia's borders' and the Dominion was big on maintaning the illusion of peace at this point, it wouldn't openly attack UFP territory).

Anyway, I suppose further arguing is pointless. We can both interpret episodes and lines the way we wan't. You choose to think the Feds are cowardly idiots, I choose to think they had a reason for their behaviour and that's it.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

neozeks

In 'journey's end' the human colony was in cardassian territory - and its citizens abandoned federation citizenship.

The maquis colonies were in the demilitarised zone - a 'neutral zone' between cardassian and federation territories. Federation and cardassian colonies were scaterred throughout this territory.
The federation hunted the maquis as terrorists because they were breaking the cardassian-federation treaty. Each time the federation did this, it confirmed the maquis' status as federation citizens. You see, only your citizens are bound by your treaties.
But a state has not only rights in regards to its citizens - it also has obligations. To protect them against genocide, for one.
The federation betrayed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of its citizens to death, to slaughter at the hands of the cardassians and jem'hadar.
Why? Appeasement, pure and simple. Idiotic, too - the dominion was obviously determined to start the war and it had much more to gain from any delay than the federation.

You admitted that federation shields worked against the dominion, and only became more effective in 'call to arms'.

Defiant showed that federation ships are more than a match for dominion ones. Indeed, if I would be in a jem'hadar ship, I would say my prayers before engaging the defiant - the chances of me surviving are very low.
In 'soldiers of the empire' the rotarran - a klingon standard BOP - engaged 1 on 1 a dominion ship and won.
Federation/klingon ships were a match for their dominion counterparts - this was proven again and again.

The federation waited for its engineers to increase shields effectiveness without knowing if and when this will come to pass (when it comes to such problem-solving projects, one can never know)?
Well, the dominion, during this time, received thousands of ships, hundreds of thousands of jem'hadar soldiers, restored its infrasctucture. Massacred hundreds of thousands of federation citizens.



The federation not only betrayed its citizens, proving itself to be cowardly, hyocritical and without any regard for the lives of its federation citizens - it also did it for nothing, for no real gain beyond its idiotic appesement and its fear of the bogeyman from the gamma quadrant.

You tried to excuse the federation's actions - but only managed to come up with convoluted, unconvincing theories. The way the series presented the situation, there is simply no credible excuse for the federation. Its actions were just too disgusting and its reasons for them, too flimsy.

 

[Timo]

I don't think you are making any sense there. To save the DMZ people, Starfleet would have to do one or both of two things: starlift these people out, and/or defeat the Dominion militarily.

We know by definition that Starfleet could not do the latter. The entire Dominion War hinged on the concept that the Dominion was a powerful enemy that stretched the resources of the combined forces of various Alpha cultures (many of them hostile to each other!) to the limit. "Failing to protect" can never be categorically equated with "betraying", all the more so when the UFP had clearly told that it could not protect the people in the DMZ. Those people had explicitly volunteered to void themselves of Starfleet protection when choosing to stay in the first place; if there was any betrayal there, it was those colonists betraying their children by committing to a dangerous way of life.

This basically leaves the issue of starlift. Is it possible to evacuate an entire planet? Most of the colonies we saw appeared to be small or at least not heavily urbanized. But a similarly agrarian community in TNG "Ensigns of Command" was still fifteen thousand people strong, and would have taken weeks to evacuate - while not under fire, and while not resisting evacuation.

Emptying the DMZ worlds would have been a long process, then. In contrast, sterilizing the worlds would have been a breeze for the Dominion. An evacuation taking multiple starships the better part of a week could be preempted by a single starship in a few hours of orbital bombardment. Logistically, the only way to clear the DMZ would have been what nations throughout history have had to do: tell the locals to use their own means of conveyance for maximally effective evacuation towards safer space, while the federal government provides firecover where it can and additional transportation where possible. This may or may not have happened; just like in the history of Earth, it would have been a marginal operation in terms of the overall war, one that the government could not afford to spend much effort on.

At least in most historical evacuations, the starting point has been that the evacuees have lived within a nation's borders, suggesting the nation might have had some defenses in place at the border to slow down the enemy. There are no such national borders in deep space, no border fortifications, and indeed in this special case such things would have been explicitly forbidden anyway.

Morally speaking, the issue is pretty clear-cut from the hero side: there were good guys, an evil invading enemy, and then little people in between, people who had foolishly chosen a risky lifestyle. The UFP probably benefits immensely from having foolish colonists ready to take risks and expand UFP commercial and political reach. There's less benefit from using the fools as a military buffer, because the sterilization of a few dozen colonies does not markedly slow down an invading force; hence, it's probably not valid to argue the Feds were guilty of encouraging the risk-taking for nefarious purposes.

In short: we generally think that "clean and conventional" wars are okay because the people dying there (soldiers) have volunteered to die for their country. The DMZ colonists all volunteered, too. So where's the problem?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Timo

First - about the dominion - the dominion's intention to wage war was clear since it tried to blow up the bajoran sun, killing not only the assembled allied fleet, but BILLIONS OF BAJORANS.
Also -The alpha quadrant dominion in 'blaze of glory' was far weaker than the defeated dominion from 'call to arms'.
You seem to forget that the federation and allies defeated the dominion.

War with the dominion was inevitable.
If the federation had the means to protect itself during 'call to arms' it most definitely had the means to protect the colonists - and itself - against the much weaker dominion from 'blaze of glory'.
The federation let the colonists die - BETRAYED THEM - in the name of appeasement born out of fear and 'bury your hand in the sand' mentality.



About the colonists - the state has the OBLIGATION to protect the colonists regardless of the life style they choose.
And the federation confirmed it considered the colonists federation citizens each time it claimed that they should respect its laws - the federation-cardassian treaty, in this case.

And make no mistakle - those colonists were civilians, NOT soldiers - the colonies were inhabited by elderly, women, children, etc. Not armed combatants, trained in the art of war.
If any of them volunteered to renounce federation protection, the federation denied the request - each time it claimed they must obey its laws (you see, only your citizens have the obligation to obey your treaties; but citizens also have the RIGHT to be protected by you against genocide).

The federation calously just...let them die - for nothing. That's how much it valued their lives.

 

[Timo]

If the federation had the means to protect itself during 'call to arms' it most definitely had the means to protect the colonists

Well, obviously not - because the colonists were "Federation itself" as much as any other part of the UFP. And the Dominion conquered large swaths of the UFP.

Saying that Starfleet had the ability to defend the DMZ worlds because Earth wasn't conquered on the first day of the war is just plain braindead - it's like arguing that Hitler should have been defeated in a day because he failed to invade England. Sorry, but your argument makes absolutely no sense. The Dominion was a powerful foe and as such could do things Starfleet didn't want it to do.

the state has the OBLIGATION to protect the colonists regardless of the life style they choose.

Nope. Not true today, hasn't been true before, probably won't be true in the future, either. By choosing a criminal lifestyle, the criminal voids most of his human rights. By choosing to live partially under Cardassian rule, rather than in UFP proper, a colonist voids military protection. And so forth.

those colonists were civilians, NOT soldiers

How could anybody tell?

you see, only your citizens have the obligation to obey your treaties

False. Even a citizen of Absurdistan has to obey the local rules and regulations of Orderia when living there, or even when visiting. If your nation has agreed not to send gunmen into a Demilitarized Zone, it has every right to stop gunmen from third nations from going into the DZ, too.

but citizens also have the RIGHT to be protected by you against genocide

Not all citizens. Only those signing on for it. The state tells citizens how to behave, and if they don't, they lose rights and privileges.

Although in this case, the rights were given up by completely consensual mutual agreement. The colonists agreed to obey UFP law on their respective worlds (except when those worlds were already independent, or belonged to some political entity other than the UFP) without receiving any military protection in reciprocation. That was explicit in the treaty: if you chose to stay, you chose being cut off from Starfleet forever. Which is probably what these folks wanted anyway (most colonists in Trek seem to be contrarians who are running away from federal rule), but they didn't have the courage to go wholly independent.

Nobody is saying that the colonists "deserved" to die. But they chose to do so, and agreed to do so. And that's probably a constitutional right in the UFP... Or at least we haven't heard of any anti-suicide laws yet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Timo

The federation defeated (allies and all) the 'call to arms' dominion aka 'the federation had the means to protect itself during 'call to arms''.
It was a risk, the outcome of the war was not determined from the beginning - yes. But this risk was far greater than the risk an eventual war with the 'balze of glory' dominion would have implied.


And citizens NEVER renounce the right to be protected by their state against genocide. And a state can NEVER renounce the obligation to protect its citizens against genocide. Not by treaty, not by anything else. Its a large part of what it means to be citizen of a state.
Criminals don't lose this right.
Of course, most of the colonists were not 'criminals' by any definition of the word. They were people living there, sympathising with maquis who fought for them.

The only way the colonists would lose the right to be protected by the federation was if they lost federation citizenship.

If, after the colonists refused to leave, the federation would have retreated them federation citizenship, then it could be argued that it no longer had the obligation to protect them. But, then, it no longer had the right to hunt them down as terrorists for breaking its treaties, either.
Well, the federation continuously considered them federation citizens - hunting them down as criminals, using its right to punish infractors. Until it was politically convenient to consider them NOT as being federation citizens - when the federation betrayed them to slaughter.
The federation acted as if it had only rights with regards to the colonists, but no obligations. DISGUSTING.


"How could anybody tell?" that the colonists were civilians, not soldiers?
Are you serious? You can't tell that unarmed/untrained/unorganised elderly/women/children are NOT military?
The maquis comprised only a minority of the colonsits - the vast majority tried to live their life in the colonies, as best they could.

Another thing - it was the colonists that settled the planets, claimed them as their own. Only through them, as federation citizens, had the federation any claim to those worlds.
If the colonists seceded from the federation, the federation no longer had any right to claim the settled planets as its own.

And are you seriously implying that, through the federation-cardassian treaty, the federation gave carte blanche to the cardassians to slaughter the colonists, federation citizens? Or that the federation - then or later, in any way - had the right to retreat its citizens the protection against agression that any state ows its citizens? Really?

 

[G2309]

neozeks


Actually, I think it was 4 shots, 50% (yeah, I'm pedantic ) and it was the main disruptor of a big-ass Vorcha cruiser firing at practically point-blank range, not some smallish Jem'hadar bugs. Pretty good, I'd say.
And that's completely without shields. In the encounters with the Dominion they had shields as well (I don't think they were completely useless, just a lot less effective than ordinary).

Actually it was an unknown number of shots at 100% their advantage was a modified trctor beam reducing targeting acuracy by 50%