LOST vs DEEP SPACE NINE

[RobertScorpio]

I thought you had an embargo on posting threads?

actually I do...but had to finish the lost vs trek battles....so consider this one dedicated to you sidious6184161055

Rob

 

[DevilEyes]

It's a tie. And I'm not going to be the one to break it, because I can't choose one or the other.

Yes, Lost had a full-on serialization and far fewer crappy episodes.

But DS9 had more characters I actually cared about, and no major characters I found annoying (Kate). And unlike DS9, Lost had rather lame female characters - or if they happened to be strong characters, they would soon get wussified or pushed into the background (Juliet in seasons 4 and 5, Sun from time to time) or just killed off very soon. Also, DS9 didn't dispose of its supporting characters so quickly as Lost did all the time.

Both shows ironically ended up with more interesting characters that weren't a part of the original cast and with the protagonists being more compelling than the good guys. DS9 had Dukat, Damar, the Founder, Kai Winn, Garak, Martok for instance and LOST had Ben, Widmore, Eloise, Daniel Faraday etc.

I assume you meant "antagonists". I don't agree, not when it comes to DS9. The recurring cast (Dukat, Garak, Damar, Winn...) were just as compelling as the main cast (Kira, Odo, Sisko, Quark...). There was barely any weak link in the cast.

 

[startrekwatcher]

IThe recurring cast (Dukat, Garak, Damar, Winn...) were just as compelling as the main cast (Kira, Odo, Sisko, Quark...). There was barely any weak link in the cast.

We'll have to disagree then. I didn't find the main cast all that compelling. You could definitely see the writers felt that way as well given how in the later years O'Brien, Bashir, Jadzia, Ezri, Jake, Quark were pretty much sidelined in favor of the recurring cast.

Look at the Final Chapter for instance--Ezri and Bashir's stories centered around their love interest, O'Brien was the techno guy and Bashir's bud, Quark was comic relief, Jake was nowhere, Worf was pretty much played out. The fun stuff was with the Founder, Weyoun, Damar, Dukat, Winn, Martok, Garak etc. Kira and Odo were probably the strongest of the main regulars but the rest I was "meh" on.

 

[flemm]

We'll have to disagree then. I didn't find the main cast all that compelling. You could definitely see the writers felt that way as well given how in the later years O'Brien, Bashir, Jadzia, Ezri, Jake, Quark were pretty much sidelined in favor of the recurring cast.

Look at the Final Chapter for instance--Ezri and Bashir's stories centered around their love interest, O'Brien was the techno guy and Bashir's bud, Quark was comic relief, Jake was nowhere, Worf was pretty much played out. The fun stuff was with the Founder, Weyoun, Damar, Dukat, Winn, Martok, Garak etc. Kira and Odo were probably the strongest of the main regulars but the rest I was "meh" on.

I think you're projecting your tastes onto the writers somewhat. Take the Worf-Ezri-Bashir love triangle, for example. The writers spend a lot of time on this in the final chapter, some would say too much (and I might be tempted to agree), but it's not as if the writers chose to focus on this because somebody put a gun to their head.

Even setting aside the romantic subplots involving the regulars (which are nonetheless important), the main storylines in the final arc are driven by regular characters, with the exception of the Dukat/Winn alliance, which is developing in the background. Direct assault on Cardassia: Sisko. Section 31: Bashir, O'Brien. Kira Goes to Cardassia along with Odo and Garak. Quark's Bar becomes the last bastion of old-school Ferengi greed (The Dogs of War). Worf cleans hoooouuuse in the Klingon Empire, etc.

Weyoun, the FC, Martok and Nog are all supporting players in the final chapter. The one minor character who really comes to the fore is Damar. Likewise, the one regular who really gets neglected is Jake (something the writers lamented at the time).

No single character dominates, but DS9 was always an ensemble show, which is one of its strengths. Sometimes the writers are just interested in material that doesn't interest certain viewers (the best example on DS9 being the yearly Ferengi comedy). In season 6, there are no fewer than three Quark-centric comedies of varying quality: The Magnificent Ferengi, Who Mourns for Morn? and Profit and Lace. The writers were interested. The question is: was anyone else? Similarly, there are three Ezri-focused episodes in season 7, which I tend to think is overkill, but don't tell the Ezri fans I said that

 

[Hober Mallow]

I really liked Sisko in the pilot. I found him very compelling, much more so than any of the other character. Then, after the pilot, Sisko got virtually no treatment for the rest of the season. Pity.

Sisko was sort of a retry of Captain Pike. Pike was the captain who didn't want to be captain because of inner turmoil. It didn't work in the 60s. It did work in the 90s.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I really liked Sisko in the pilot. I found him very compelling, much more so than any of the other character. Then, after the pilot, Sisko got virtually no treatment for the rest of the season. Pity.

Sisko was sort of a retry of Captain Pike. Pike was the captain who didn't want to be captain because of inner turmoil. It didn't work in the 60s. It did work in the 90s.

huh..i had never thought of it that way...

Rob

 

[Hober Mallow]

huh..i had never thought of it that way...

Rob

Yeah, can you imagine Captain Kirk wanting to leave Starfleet on TOS? It would have been out of character, and it wouldn't have fit with the swashbuckling hero image the network -- and, no doubt, the 60s audience -- wanted. Pike was a swashbuckling hero who didn't want to be a swashbuckling hero. I don't think the audience was ready for that kind of anti-hero.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I voted DS9 only because its reach didn't exceed its grasp. It delivered what it promised to (mostly). Lost had the potential to be way better, but then we got season six and a non-sequitur finale. Lost started way better than DS9 though.

Good thing the Dominion didn't attack while they were playing baseball in the holosuites or hanging out at Vic's.

I think my favorite take on this is when O'Brien and Bashir are playing with their Alamo model and Quark comes over and harrasses them for it asking if they should be doing something more productive. They reply by saying that they had both been working all day long for a double shift.

The point is that even during war, people still need to find time to relax and enjoy entertainment. And the particular situation on DS9 is that it wasn't really the front line of the war. So what exactly should they do?

The way the Prophets saved Sisko's ass in Sacrifice of Angels and then never really asked for anything much in return.

Didn't they ask for the life of his son in "The Reckoning"? Plus Kira and DS9?

The way Starfleet didn't seem to care that Sisko's loyalties had shifted to a bunch of wormhole aliens who as far as anyone knew, were in cahoots with the Dominion.

He was always loyal to the Federation, and Admiral Ross did question his affinity for Bajor. It was mentioned several times how uneasy it made the Federation that Sisko had such a role, but they also didn't want to mess around with it and upset the Bajorans.

It was also pretty obvious the prophets weren't in league with the Dominion since they got rid of thousands of their ships.

And of course, the strained logic of how Starfleet actually won the war.

I didn't find it too strained. Yes, the odds were against them, but just like in real war, sometimes one man or a small group of people can have a great effect on the outcome.


All of these things were effectively explained, and several orders of magnitude away from the ridiculousness of some of Lost's magical plot contrivances in the later seasons.

We never did see the "other shift" for the station - was there another Sisko, Kira, etc?

Sisko being loyal to the Feds wasn't proof he wasn't being duped. The Prophets could have made the Dom fleet disappear as a ruse to lull the Feds into complacency. The Prophets did ask for Jake's life, sure - but Jake didn't die, so that didn't count. Jake really did need to die, or the whole thing's a big cop-out.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Nowadays I don't even consider it serialized.

There's some serialized material, but mostly DS9's approach is more of a "landscape" storytelling style, a bit like Marvel comics has used in recent years. The background and setting evolve over time, with occasional momentous events. Some of the stories then contribute to the ongoing plot, but others just take advantage of the new "landscape" without really altering it.

That's a very good way of putting it .

 

[Mr Light]

I noticed that in non-Sisko-centric episodes he had absolutely no personality whatsoever, then suddenly becomes multi-faceted and charming again in his centric episodes.

 

[flemm]

That's a very good way of putting it .

Why, thank you

I do think that is the best description how DS9 went about its business, though doubtless without having "landscape storytelling" as a specific goal in mind. Rather it resulted from the blending of a number of different styles.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I think DS9's style of storytelling really just developed from its stationary setting. TNG lent itself to episodic stories simply because the ship warps away to another planet at the end of every episode. DS9's stationary setting insured that the crew couldn't escape the consequences of other episodes.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I noticed that in non-Sisko-centric episodes he had absolutely no personality whatsoever, then suddenly becomes multi-faceted and charming again in his centric episodes.

Thats funny..I always had the same feeling about non-Picard centric episodes...

Rob

 

[Ryan8bit]

We never did see the "other shift" for the station - was there another Sisko, Kira, etc?

It doesn't matter just like it didn't matter who some of the no-face survivors were that we saw of flight 815.

Sisko being loyal to the Feds wasn't proof he wasn't being duped. The Prophets could have made the Dom fleet disappear as a ruse to lull the Feds into complacency.

I don't think they were complacent, but when the ships never came and no more followed, that could really only be viewed one way. And I'm sure there were extensive reports and debriefings about the subject.

The Prophets did ask for Jake's life, sure - but Jake didn't die, so that didn't count. Jake really did need to die, or the whole thing's a big cop-out.

Well of course it's a cop-out, but it's not as if Lost didn't come up with ten times as many cop-outs when it came to answering questions or having magical things happen.

You just asked what the prophets wanted in return (assuming they really want anything at all) and I just provided what the show's answer was to illustrate that it really did tie up a lot of its issues. Whether or not the answer was satisfactory for some viewers is a whole separate issue.

 

[DevilEyes]

We never did see the "other shift" for the station - was there another Sisko, Kira, etc?
.

I'm pretty sure that there's just one commander and one XO of the station, so no. Just like I'm sure that there wasn't another captain of the Enterprise sharing duty with Picard.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Wasn't Wesley Crusher the second captain of the Enterprise. Sure seemed that way to me, in the first season at least.

Rob

 

[DonIago]

So would this other Sisko, Kira, etc. be...The Others?

As long as they're not The Tailies!

 

[RobertScorpio]

Agreed..or it would have been a total waste of time...

Rob