Lost 6x07: "Dr. Linus"

[Checkmate]

Wait, you're blaming the actions of Ben and the people he manipulated and bullied into following him on Jacob? o.O I mean, Ben made it abundantly clear that he never had the opportunity to interact with Jacob except through Richard, and everything indicates that he always did what he wanted to do rather than the intent of what he was told. I don't think that's quite fair to Jacob. As opposed to the kinds of things Smokey has been doing, like telling Sayid to go tell the Other Others to join him or die, and twisting things in his head so that he would kill Dogen for him (which Smokey needed to happen before he could make his threat a reality).

Also, Miles, without any room for uncertainty, informed us that Jacob didn't want to die. He's clearly planned for the eventuality of it, but his true hope was that Ben wouldn't do it.

 

[McCoy]

For Ben's sake I suspect, rather than his own.

 

[Jetfire]

I was really hoping Richard was a cyborg or a vampire.

I don't think notLocke is going to be happy with Ben.

 

[propita]

So this week we have Richard wanting to kill himself. But a few episodes back, he didn't want to die as he was "scared to death" of Smoky when encountering Sawyer in the Jungle.

OK.

A few episodes back, everyone at the Temple wasn't killed by Smokey.

 

[Mr Light]

According to Ben it wans't his decision to kill off Dharma but "the leader", I assume to be Widmore, though you could interpret it to mean Jacob. You're right Miles did say he didn't want to die... but that doesn't mean he wasn't planning on dying for the greater good.

 

[Jenee]

Sorry, but if you try to paint him as anything but a force of evil, you're either deluded or have some truly sick personal issues you need to work out.

I apologize. I was under the impression we were discussing a fictional story relayed via television.

I was unaware this is actually a true story and you are so personally involved.

[...]

Nothing you said here is worth a reply - just the ramblings of an old blind man ...

As opposed to? Do we even know that Jacob's manipulations were unnecessary? The Island has made it clear that the Island gets what the Island wants no matter what. Jacob seems to be doing what he can to make the best out of bad situations that are out of his control.

Oh, for Christ's sake. Now you're just making excuses to justify your position.

You're being sucked in by the obvious. You need to look deeper.

 

[gh4chiefs]

So this week we have Richard wanting to kill himself. But a few episodes back, he didn't want to die as he was "scared to death" of Smoky when encountering Sawyer in the Jungle.

OK.

A few episodes back, everyone at the Temple wasn't killed by Smokey.

I'm not sure what your point is, but my point is the writers made it out that Richard didn't want to die and then just a couple of episodes later he did.

 

[Capn Flukie]

^ the change came when he found out Jacob was dead, so he didn't get what he was promised.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Hmm, a little slow and uninvolving for a Ben episode. The fact that the flash-sideways Ben's story was so obviously inspired by island-Ben's life, without the necessity of any literal intersection between the plotlines, has got me more convinced than ever that the flash-sideways and island plotlines are not meant to ever intersect.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we never see flash-sideways Ben again. His story seems to have been concluded in this episode and he's served his purpose, to allow us to see island-Ben as a more fully formed individual, who never needed to be creepy or evil, but could have been an entirely different kind of guy. That makes island-Ben more of a tragic figure and puts him in a whole new light for the rest of the episodes.

So, flash-sideways Ben has changed island-Ben - in how I understand him. That's how these stories are going to intersect.

I found Richard's story more interesting - looking forward to that episode!

 

[Checkmate]

Sorry, but if you try to paint him as anything but a force of evil,
you're either deluded or have some truly sick personal issues you need to work out.

I apologize. I was under the impression we were discussing a fictional story relayed via television.

I was unaware this is actually a true story and you are so personally involved.

I'm sorry that you think a character who goes around murdering tens if not hundreds of people simply for not following his bizarre and twisted orders is anything other than evil personified. That suggests a very disturbed and twisted mentality on your part, especially combined with other comments you've recently made.

Or maybe you can point to me where figures such as Jesus Christ or the Dalai Lama went around on killing sprees. Since, apparently, that's a sign of a stable, saintly mentality.

As opposed to? Do we even know that Jacob's manipulations were unnecessary? The Island has made it clear that the Island gets what the Island wants no matter what. Jacob seems to be doing what he can to make the best out of bad situations that are out of his control.

Oh, for Christ's sake. Now you're just making excuses to justify your position.

You're being sucked in by the obvious. You need to look deeper.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who's being suckered in by the old silver-tongued Lucifer gag. You're the one who's trying to say Locke isn't one evil, demented being, but you're rambling on about how you're all but convinced that Jacob is despite the mountains upon mountains of evidence to the contrary. Or, at the absolute worse, lack of evidence either way (meaning there isn't anything at all to prove that Jacob is an evil, twisted psychopath despite your personal and wholly unfounded opinion to the contrary).

 

[Checkmate]

A few episodes back, everyone at the Temple wasn't killed by Smokey.

I'm not sure what your point is, but my point is the writers made it out that Richard didn't want to die and then just a couple of episodes later he did.

The last episode was pretty clear on the subject.

Richard lost it completely when he found everyone at the Temple dead. Up until that point, he still had hope that Jacob would live up to his promise of enlightenment, but upon seeing everyone at the Temple dead, that last stray hope was lost. He probably thought Dogen or someone else at the Temple may have had the answers Jacob promised, but all of that is gone now.

When he discovered that Hurley was communicating with him, you could see a tiny bit of that hope flickering in his eyes. But he was so distraught that he dismissed it and returned to wallowing in his depression.

We also saw the beginning of the panicked depression the moment he learned of Jacob's death, and it was likely fueled by his encounter in the jungle with Smokey. So it's not like it came out of nowhere at all.

Additionally, now that Jack has at least partially broken him out of his funk, he'll realize that Hurley's ability to commune with Jacob means that he can still find the answers he's looking for. And ten to one says we'll very likely see that touched upon on the upcoming Richard-centric episode.

 

[Capn Flukie]

I wonder if there will be a Hurley/Miles faceoff on the 'listening to dead people' front.

 

[Hermiod]

I'm so glad I still have one show left that's this consistently excellent, something I actually look forward to watching every week.

An Excellent from me.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Uh, I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who's being suckered in by the old silver-tongued Lucifer gag. You're the one who's trying to say Locke isn't one evil, demented being, but you're rambling on about how you're all but convinced that Jacob is despite the mountains upon mountains of evidence to the contrary. Or, at the absolute worse, lack of evidence either way (meaning there isn't anything at all to prove that Jacob is an evil, twisted psychopath despite your personal and wholly unfounded opinion to the contrary).

Spoiler: What the Writers have said. Not spoilers so much as commentary on the creative direction this season

Damon and Carlton have said that this season will be a battle between good and evil, but they'll make their case that either one could fit that category. Right now, the bulk of the evidence seems to imply that the smoke monster is the evil one. Personally, that makes the most sense to me, but they could be setting it up for a twist. After all, Jacob's manipulations led them to where they are. I trust Jacob more because I haven't seem him kill unnecessarily, but I'm still willing to wait and see before I start arguing angrily on the internet

 

[Jenee]

Uh, I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who's being suckered in by the old silver-tongued Lucifer gag. You're the one who's trying to say Locke isn't one evil, demented being, but you're rambling on about how you're all but convinced that Jacob is despite the mountains upon mountains of evidence to the contrary. Or, at the absolute worse, lack of evidence either way (meaning there isn't anything at all to prove that Jacob is an evil, twisted psychopath despite your personal and wholly unfounded opinion to the contrary).

Spoiler: What the Writers have said. Not spoilers so much as commentary on the creative direction this season

Damon and Carlton have said that this season will be a battle between good and evil, but they'll make their case that either one could fit that category. Right now, the bulk of the evidence seems to imply that the smoke monster is the evil one. Personally, that makes the most sense to me, but they could be setting it up for a twist. After all, Jacob's manipulations led them to where they are. I trust Jacob more because I haven't seem him kill unnecessarily, but I'm still willing to wait and see before I start arguing angrily on the internet

Not only that, the very first scene with those two characters, MIB asked Jacob to stop bringing the people here - to stop 'fucking with their lives'.

Smokey has gone on a killing spree because everyone on the island eventually kills to "keep" the island for themselves.

As far as we're concerned, the two are god-like beings and are judging the people. Those who are willing to 'give up' the island - not keep it for themselves - are being spared.

Jacob, even in death, is manipulating Jack and Hurley to "defend" or "keep" the island.

Who's evil now?

 

[Checkmate]

Who's evil now?

Smokey.

Without any room for question.

The only question is whether Jacob is, too, but there's absolutely no actual proof suggesting he is. Despite personal opinions.

 

[Jenee]

If you really believe that, and if you're Christian, then your God is evil, too.

 

[Checkmate]

The Old Testament version of God was definitely an evil son of a bitch, and easily manipulated by Satan to boot. I still have trouble completely understanding the point of the story of Job other than God was a complete idiot who apparently needed to prove himself.

Satan: "Hey God, I bet if you torture that dude he'll totally stop believing in you."
God: "OH YEAH, WATCH THIS!"
Satan, stifling a laugh as he watches Job's life become a living Hell worse than anything he could do himself: "Yeah, okay, you got me." <snicker snort guffaw>

Comparing Jacob and Smokey to God and Satan, though, is pointless since we already know that's not the case. There's a more godly entity involved that trumps both of them. Feel free to go into denial about that fact, too, though.

 

[Jenee]

Denial? Are being obtuse, or are you just insane?

This, obviously, is no longer a story about humans and who are the good guys. It's about beings that are beyond our level of ... evolution.

Our 'primitive' sense of good and bad has nothing to do with this. That's why I said you need to look deeper.

Forget about the actions themselves, and look at why they are taking these actions.

 

[Hermiod]

I forgot to say, at Miles for calling Nikki and Paolo "jabronies".

It's a professional wrestling term that describes them perfectly.