Lost 5x07: "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"

[chrisspringob]

Going back to the Island's resurrection of Locke......maybe when the Island resurrects you, you become immortal? That could explain why Richard Alpert doesn't age. He died, and he was resurrected. (Of course, the other obvious explanation is that he's a time traveler, and young Richard has been traveling around time.)

In fact, given that we saw Locke come back to life, is there any reason why we couldn't see any/all the dead characters on the show come back to life?

 

[empty]

Arrghman beat me to my theory on why Ben killed Locke.

I think Ben's original plan was to use Locke to get the Oceanic Six back to the island, as he knew they were destined to go back and as long as he was in on the circumstances, he hitch a ride--his main objective. The only problem for Ben probably could've manipulated everyone into going back the way we saw him to so, other than Sun, as she wanted to kill him. However, he could use Locke to get to her. But when he finds out that Jin is still alive and that Locke has the ring as proof, he realizes that he can use this information to get Sun back. He knew Locke needed to go back as well, but as long as he was alive, he was now connected to Widmore. Safer to bring him back as a corpse.

Ben only finally decided to kill John when he mentioned Eloise. Seems to me that Ben realized Eloise was helping Widmore. My theory is that Ben wanted to gain Eloise's favor by showing her he could save the island by getting everyone together. Then she would let him go to the island and possibly not tell Widmore. After all, she seems most interested in protecting the Island. Then again, who really knows with these people?

The biggest question for me is who is more dangerous for the island? Somehow I don't buy Ben's statement that Widmore just wants to turn it into a huge profit machine. Widmore obviously didn't want to leave the island originally.

It also occurs to me we still don't know what the others really want. Protect the island... but from what? Why does Ben think he can protect it better than Widmore? Or are they both just megalomanic manipulators which is why Locke was chosen to lead by Jacob?

Anyway, this season is simply awesome. The speed at which the plot unfolds is amazing and there are great character moments too... And nothing seems all too contrived, especially now that we are finding out how a lot of the things that had been set up are playing out.

I'm pretty confident in the story even if it returns to the normal flashback structure. Dindelof seem to have set up some semi-interesting stories for Sayid, Hurley, Kate and some very interesting ones for Daniel, bleedy-nose Miles, Ben and hopefully Widmore and Alpert. But the mysteries of where in time the two groups are are also really interesting, I'm really curios to find out more about Dharma and the boat people.

In conclusion, Excellent!

 

[jamestyler]

In fact, given that we saw Locke come back to life, is there any reason why we couldn't see any/all the dead characters on the show come back to life?

What about Mikhail? He was killed by that barrier and returned later, though some say that never actually killed him it could be a sign of the extend of the Islands healing properties.

 

[The Habs Fan]

I give this episode an Excellent. It wasn't my favourite of the season (316 is) but it came close.

Here's my theory as to why Ben murdered Locke:

Remember, Richard Alpert said to Locke that the way to bring them all back to the island was to die. This leads me to believe that Locke was destined to die and to take Christian's place on the plane. But then why did Ben stop Locke from committing suicide only to murder him right after? Maybe the island doesn't resurrect you if you commit suicide, but if you die accidently or you are murdered it resurrects you.

I agree with someone earlier in the thread who said that Locke may now be immortal. I also think Richard Alpert has died and has gotten resurrected by the island and is immortal, thus explaining why he doesn't age.

 

[Mr Light]

And why would Frank run away from the 316 survivors with the passenger list with this mysterious woman? I'll bet you the woman is a Widmore agent who's holding Frank hostage at gun point. She forced him to steal the list and go off with him. They're the ones in the boat that were shooting at the Faraday group in the outrigger canoe. And Sawyer/Juliet hit the woman who was holding Frank hostage.

 

[Mr Light]

Hey, I like that idea too. The Island won't resurrect you if you commit suicide 'cause it's a mortal sin. Remember Jacob and the List are all about being a "good person"! This would explain Ben's actions.

 

[TheGodBen]

An hour of John Locke and during that hour Locke dies and then comes back to life. Can it get anything less than an "Excellent?" I think not.

This about sums it up for me. I don't think there was a single scene in this episode which didn't have Locke in it, and that means the episode has to get an excellent.

I really love the Ben/Locke relationship, that moment when Ben leaves and says he is really going to miss Locke... perfect. From the look on Ben's face I got the impression that he had no intention of killing Locke when we went to meet him and that he was just as shocked by what he had just done.

As for the 316 crash, looking at that image again it seems quite clear that there is some sort of runway and the plane ran off the side of it and into the bushes. If that is the case then that is probably the best bit of foreshadowing I have ever seen on a TV show. I don't understand how it is possible, but this is Lost so they are bound to find a way.

 

[Arrqh]

Ben only finally decided to kill John when he mentioned Eloise. Seems to me that Ben realized Eloise was helping Widmore. My theory is that Ben wanted to gain Eloise's favor by showing her he could save the island by getting everyone together. Then she would let him go to the island and possibly not tell Widmore. After all, she seems most interested in protecting the Island. Then again, who really knows with these people?

I dunno, I definitely think it was the moment Locke mentioned Sun. There was even a slight music cue and his expression changed subtlety. He just couldn't go through with it until he knew how Locke was planning on getting back to the island (and despite his claim to the contrary, I don't think he had any idea about Eloise).

 

[Mr Light]

""As for the 316 crash, looking at that image again it seems quite clear that there is some sort of runway and the plane ran off the side of it and into the bushes. If that is the case then that is probably the best bit of foreshadowing I have ever seen on a TV show. I don't understand how it is possible, but this is Lost so they are bound to find a way."" You do know that in Season Three, when Sawyer and Kate were breaking rocks on Hydra Island for no apparent reason, Juliet later told Sawyer that they were building a runway?

 

[Hober Mallow]

A couple of continuity problems bugged me. Last season Walt told Hurley "Jeremy Bentham" came to see him, but John never mentioned that name to Walt. Nor do I remember him mentioning it to Hurley.

Also last season, Ben asked Jack if John told him that Ben was off the island, and Jack said yes, but John never mentioned Ben to Jack.

Still liked the episode. You've got to feel for a character who for his whole life has had people telling him he's special and nothing good has ever come of it.

Questions up in the air...

- Why did Ben kill Locke after telling him he had to lead?

Because Ben got what he wanted from Locke, the name of Eloise Hawking. Didn't you see the "jackpot!" look on Ben's face when Locke told him?

- Where and when did the Ajira plane crash happen?

I don't know, but these people certainly don't act like this is their first plane crash. That bugged me a bit, but then again, they found signs of civilization right away, so they may think they're safe on an inhabited island. We'll have to wait and see.

- Who was Matthew Abaddon really, and will we learn more about him?

I have a funny feeling he has more to do with Eloise Hawking than with Whidmore, the way he talked about "helping people get where they need to go." Sucks that he died, because he's all kinds of awesome.

- What was up with Jack's breakdown? He acted like he's been visited by Locke repeatedly over the last three years or something like that.

You have to remember the narrative of last season's flash forwards. At this point Jack has been having visions of his father, is drinking heavily, and had a falling-out with Kate. Jack's life was a shambles. From Jack's perspective, the events of this episode take place shortly before he's found on the bridge about to jump off.

- How does Walt factor into all of this and will we see him again?

I think he was just there to round out what we know already happened and to pass along certain information about his "dream" of John in danger (gee, I wonder if that info if going to be important down the line!). It wouldn't surprise me if we don't see him again.

And why would Frank run away from the 316 survivors with the passenger list with this mysterious woman?

He wouldn't. Something's not kosher here.

 

[Hober Mallow]

""As for the 316 crash, looking at that image again it seems quite clear that there is some sort of runway and the plane ran off the side of it and into the bushes. If that is the case then that is probably the best bit of foreshadowing I have ever seen on a TV show. I don't understand how it is possible, but this is Lost so they are bound to find a way."" You do know that in Season Three, when Sawyer and Kate were breaking rocks on Hydra Island for no apparent reason, Juliet later told Sawyer that they were building a runway?

Even better foreshadowing is Jack noticing all the weird coincidences surrounding the Oceanic Six that we the audience have known since the first season.

 

[Mr Light]

I can't believe that Locke's deathbed revelation of Hawking is the first time Ben ever heard of her, though. They seemed to be on quite familiar terms when we've seen them together this season, and Hawking knows him well enough to know he's a compulsive liar. And if Hawking doesn't know him, why is she working with him? Did he just say "Locke sent me"?

 

[Hober Mallow]

Going back to the Island's resurrection of Locke......maybe when the Island resurrects you, you become immortal? That could explain why Richard Alpert doesn't age. He died, and he was resurrected. (Of course, the other obvious explanation is that he's a time traveler, and young Richard has been traveling around time.)

He's not a time traveler. Remember Juliet told John Richard has "always" been on the island, and when asked how old Richard was, said simply, "Old." And then back in the third season Ben asked Richard, "You remember birthdays, don't you?"

 

[Gertch]

I can't believe that Locke's deathbed revelation of Hawking is the first time Ben ever heard of her, though. They seemed to be on quite familiar terms when we've seen them together this season, and Hawking knows him well enough to know he's a compulsive liar. And if Hawking doesn't know him, why is she working with him? Did he just say "Locke sent me"?

I agree with you. I think they've known each other for a long time.

 

[zengoth]

all the while Locke was stringing himself up, i kept flashing back to Michael's suicide attempts...i figured there was no way the island would allow Locke to kill himself.
I've always figured Ben understands the reincarnation aspects of the island, so hastening Locke along to the inevitable may have not been as villainous as it seems. Had Locke lived to gather the tribe back to the island, maybe Ben wouldn't've gotten to hitch a ride. Ben is still "the man behind the curtain" orchestrating events so they do not fall off of their inevitable timeline...

here's my question...
the hydra is not "the" island, but a separate island, right? So...does it travel along with the main island through space and time? Why would it have the same resurrection properties as the main island?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

My tape cut out at the very end, when the new guy was describing what happened during the crash to Locke. He was about to say something about Hurley - lemme guess, all the people who were "supposed" to return vanished in front of his eyes?

More or less. New Guy said that everyone was accounted for except those who disappeared and those who were injured. When Locke inquired about the latter group, New Guy took him to them and they find Ben there.

Incidentally, Ben acting against the island's wishes totally explains the whole tumor thing.

And if the Island teleports the people it "wants" to safety, that very neatly explains how so many people in 815 survived the crash, many without any injuries at all, why the survivors were all outside the plane (they could have crawled out of the wreckage but I don't recall anyone saying they did that) and why Lostzilla ate poor Matt Parkman - being badly injured and still in the plane, he definitely was not supposed to survive - so Lostzilla finished him off.

This second crash was a crash-landing, so you would expect a lot more survivors who were not saved by the island. Which makes me wonder if Lostzilla will be getting hungry again...

The biggest question for me is who is more dangerous for the island? Somehow I don't buy Ben's statement that Widmore just wants to turn it into a huge profit machine. Widmore obviously didn't want to leave the island originally.

My hunch is that Widmore and Ben both have far more grandiose schemes for the island than mere money. Both think they are utterly justified and both are completely ruthless.

My question is, where is Dharma in all this?

Oh yeah, and the series finale will not only involve someone sending the island where no one can follow, but there will be one and only one person who "rides along" with the island into eternity: Locke, of course.

Ben only finally decided to kill John when he mentioned Eloise. Seems to me that Ben realized Eloise was helping Widmore.

I wondered if Ben stopped the suicide simply to extract info from Locke - that tidbit and also the info about Sun and Jin - and when Locke had blabbed, Ben finished the job.

And why would Frank run away from the 316 survivors with the passenger list with this mysterious woman?

Maybe it's Danielle. These people won't stay dead!

here's my question...
the hydra is not "the" island, but a separate island, right? So...does it travel along with the main island through space and time? Why would it have the same resurrection properties as the main island?

If the island is a chunk of a "Solaris" type sentient planet that crash-landed on Earth eons ago, and its "magic" properties are simply natural qualities of its species (and it fashions creatures like Eloise and Jacob in order to communicate with humans - being far too alien to communicate directly) then Hydra could just be a smaller chunk of the same entity that crash-landed in the Pacific. Maybe there was a whole meteor-storm of chunks which explains all the other areas on the planet that were mentioned as having similar properties.

 

[Mallet]

Oh yeah, and the series finale will not only involve someone sending the island where no one can follow, but there will be one and only one person who "rides along" with the island into eternity: Locke, of course.

No, they will send the island back in time so it "becomes" it's self back in time, waiting for the event to unfold, over and over again. It becomes a constant/time loop/paradox... And one person will stay behind to move the island, but another will join him at the last second and they will go back together to become "Adam" & "Eve".

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I'm rooting for Bernard and Rose to end up as Adam and Eve.

Now that time travel is involved, it doesn't have to be tragic. They could just happen to be caught in the distant past on the Island and live out the rest of their natural days together.

 

[DarthPipes]

One of the things I liked is when Locke is reborn on the island, he's actually giving answers to the questions asked. Too often on Lost, the characters have concealed information from one another for absolutely no reason. Here, Locke tells how he ended up on the plane as best he can and gives the name of the Dharma Iniative and how he was on the island before.

 

[Agent Richard07]

If the island is a chunk of a "Solaris" type sentient planet that crash-landed on Earth eons ago...

That's exactly what I've been thinking the island is. Either that or a chunk of heaven/afterlife/whatever that broke off and fell to Earth. And it wouldn't surprise me if it's only been gone a few days from the perspective of whoever or whatever lost it.

Reading this thread, it looks like I was off concerning the plane landing on a runway, because 1) I didn't see it and 2) it looked like the plane was close to the beach. Looks like I might have misread Ben's reaction of Locke's mention of Hawking as well. Whatever his reaction was about, he did have one and tried to downplay it.