Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

[Jayson1]

Bearded female dwarves were a non-entity in the entire writings of Tolkien, getting at best a single line or so. There were no beloved female dwarf characters, no stories featuring them in any way, nothing for anyone to be attached to aside from one or two brief lines over several thousand pages. The idea that not having them in 'waters it down' or reduces it to 'generic fantasy' is ridiculous as is all the faux outrage over this. The changes Jackson made to characters like Aragorn (he's not reluctant to fulfill his destiny, nor besties with Legolas), Gimili (turning him into little more than comic relief) Faramir ( giving him daddy issues and making him unable to withstand the lure of the Ring as he did in the book) Merry and Pippen (making them, like Gimili, overly goofy comic relief) are far more egregious than bearded dwarf ladies. Yet everyone is okay with that.

It's not so much that you might not have bearded female dwarfs as it is the possible reason they might not have them. If it's done just because they think the women would not be sexy enough that would be a warning sign that maybe they are worried about mainstream concerns in bringing in new fans and if they are doing that does that mean they will be dumbing things down so as not confuse the audience.

Meaning the show will look good and likely be well acted but it will appealing to whatever the fantasy sound effect to pew pew pew is. Is this going to a fantasy adventure with some drama or just a action show were the characters aren't really explored much because they are more interested in moving from one action set piece to another. Of course this is all just something to be worth concern about. Not something to get to cynical about just yet. It could be all for nothing in the end.

 

[The Lensman]

It's not so much that you might not have bearded female dwarfs as it is the possible reason they might not have them. If it's done just because they think the women would not be sexy enough that would be a warning sign that maybe they are worried about mainstream concerns in bringing in new fans and if they are doing that does that mean they will be dumbing things down so as not confuse the audience.

Meaning the show will look good and likely be well acted but it will appealing to whatever the fantasy sound effect to pew pew pew is. Is this going to a fantasy adventure with some drama or just a action show were the characters aren't really explored much because they are more interested in moving from one action set piece to another. Of course this is all just something to be worth concern about. Not something to get to cynical about just yet. It could be all for nothing in the end.

Ridiculous. It's like saying that because Klingon males no longer have beards, Star Trek went from being something unique to just another generic sci-fi to get new viewers. The beards are a detail that is beyond trivial. I'm enough of a Lord of the Rings fan that I own multiple editions of the trilogy and Silmarillion, and I don't give even the remotest of fucks about this lack of beards. Them not caring about something this mind numbingly trivial is not an indicator that they don't care about Tolkien's work, anymore than them not showing a particular engraving on a sword is. Jackson made far larger changes to the work than beards. Yet somehow I'm not seeing fanboys crap all over his films.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Tolkien implying or stating (once in each case, I believe, although I might be wrong) that female dwarves have beards always seemed like a throwaway joke to me. His other conceit was that he was uncovering all these tales by translating works such as the Red Book of Westmarch so one could handwave minor discrepancies as mistakes in his translation. I don't have any problem with people of colour being cast - genetic studies have shown that some ancient inhabitants of Europe had melanised skin. I don't recall Tolkien stating that Elves have pointy ears but we seem to have accepted that as fact ever since Peter Jackson made it so. I don't care provided the story telling is good and the major plot points are followed.

Hunter-gatherer European had blue eyes and dark skin - BBC News

 

[JD]

Even if it wasn't specifically stated by Tolkien, elves having pointed ears predates the movies. I know I had already been seeing elves with pointed ears long before the movies came out.

 

[fireproof78]

that would be a warning sign that maybe they are worried about mainstream concerns in bringing in new fans and if they are doing that does that mean they will be dumbing things down so as not confuse the audience.

How!? I don't understand this point of view at all. Throwaway lines about Dwarf women having beards have been around since Lord of the Rings. I don't see how minor makeup modifications, e.g. variations on facial hair or pointed ears.

 

[Ithekro]

Considering the delivery of the line by Aragorn in the films about said beards, it sounds like a gag line.

 

[Jayson1]

Think of it like this. Why not give them beards? If it's already established then why not just go with it? Their must be reason they choose to not give them beards. I would hate to think they wouldn't do it because its to much, inside baseball, only the nerds will get. We need to downplay that kind of stuff for casual fans. If they are making those kind of choices then who knows what else might be watered down for casual fans.

 

[fireproof78]

Think of it like this. Why not give them beards?

To ensure the audience can tell the difference. Confusing people is not an asset.

 

[Miss Chicken]

We do not know what the Tolkien Estate has given, or not given permission to, if Amazon has had to ask permission for certain things. It does not look like the Tolkien Estate has not vetoed black elves or beardless she-dwarves so either those things are outside of what the Estate has control over or the Estate has OKed them.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

We all know why the Tolkien estate dare not veto the casting of people of colour.

Even if it wasn't specifically stated by Tolkien, elves having pointed ears predates the movies. I know I had already been seeing elves with pointed ears long before the movies came out.

Probably in the cartoon versions or fan art or officially sanctioned art? Perhaps so. It's kind of an interesting question - which came first - Vulcan pointy ears or Elven pointy ears?

 

[EmoBorg]

A history of Numenor in the second age.

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[theenglish]

Even if it wasn't specifically stated by Tolkien, elves having pointed ears predates the movies. I know I had already been seeing elves with pointed ears long before the movies came out.

Elves were originally no different than fairies or pixies. I'm no expert but I think the idea of Elves as a humanoid race of people started with Tolkien. His template is what D&D was based on, and from those two sources, what most of modern fantasy stories use when incorporating elves. Tolkien also claimed to have pluralized elfs as elves, didn't he?

 

[Reverend]

So far as I'm aware, mythical elves originates from Norse mythology as beings of light and beauty from the heavenly realm of Alfheim (whether their opposite numbers the "Dark Elves" that dwelled under the Earth were actually a thing, or just Dwarves by another name is a matter of scholarly debate.)

Comparing them to faries and pixies is a little tricky since those are mostly from various Germanic, Celtic, and Slavic folklores, and as such much less well defined. Though since the Norse got around a lot, their beliefs did bleed into those aforementioned cultures, which his how we get the Germanified, Christianised, and ultimately Anglicised interpretations of what an Elf is. Mind you, in those folklores fae aren't exactly the whimsical beings we tend to think of, but very dangerous and deceitful creatures that only appear fair and attractive. Such is the parabolic nature of most folklore.

So it all gets a little muddled. Knowing Tolkien though, he likely drew more from the original Norse concept than anything else. So the comparisons to Judeo-Christian-Islamic angels is probably most accurate one.

 

[EmoBorg]

An excellent review of the Rings of Power teaser trailer. He tries to answers many of the controversies.

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[Miss Chicken]

An excellent review of the Rings of Power teaser trailer. He tries to answers many of the controversies.

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I watched that video yesterday and thought it was quite good but he has got quite a bit of criticism over it, some of it nasty.
Watching the video he does seem to get a couple of minor things wrong but that might be a result of IGN’s editing and not including all he actually said.
In this video he is defended and Tolkien Lore actually tries to take a middle ground approach looking at both sides of the arguments about the teaser.

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[Asbo Zaprudder]

Elves were originally no different than fairies or pixies. I'm no expert but I think the idea of Elves as a humanoid race of people started with Tolkien. His template is what D&D was based on, and from those two sources, what most of modern fantasy stories use when incorporating elves. Tolkien also claimed to have pluralized elfs as elves, didn't he?

Elfs is always incorrect as far as I'm aware. It was the plural "dwarves" of "dwarf" that Tolkien preferred to "dwarfs". I assume he did this to match "elves". I'm not entirely sure that he invented this version of the plural form but it has now slipped into common usage, apparently.

 

[JD]

We all know why the Tolkien estate dare not veto the casting of people of colour.



Probably in the cartoon versions or fan art or officially sanctioned art? Perhaps so. It's kind of an interesting question - which came first - Vulcan pointy ears or Elven pointy ears?

Looking around on Wikimedia, I found a drawings of fairies with pointed ears from 1901 and 1908. I know they're not quite the same as elves, but they're kind of related, and it does show that the idea of supernatural beings having pointed ears does predate Star Trek.

So far as I'm aware, mythical elves originates from Norse mythology as beings of light and beauty from the heavenly realm of Alfheim (whether their opposite numbers the "Dark Elves" that dwelled under the Earth were actually a thing, or just Dwarves by another name is a matter of scholarly debate.)

Comparing them to faries and pixies is a little tricky since those are mostly from various Germanic, Celtic, and Slavic folklores, and as such much less well defined. Though since the Norse got around a lot, their beliefs did bleed into those aforementioned cultures, which his how we get the Germanified, Christianised, and ultimately Anglicised interpretations of what an Elf is. Mind you, in those folklores fae aren't exactly the whimsical beings we tend to think of, but very dangerous and deceitful creatures that only appear fair and attractive. Such is the parabolic nature of most folklore.

So it all gets a little muddled. Knowing Tolkien though, he likely drew more from the original Norse concept than anything else. So the comparisons to Judeo-Christian-Islamic angels is probably most accurate one.

I always got the impression they were mostly based on/inspired by the Sidhe from Celtic mythology.

 

[UssGlenn]

Elfs is always incorrect as far as I'm aware. It was the plural "dwarves" of "dwarf" that Tolkien preferred to "dwarfs". I assume he did this to match "elves". I'm not entirely sure that he invented this version of the plural form but it has now slipped into common usage, apparently.

I've always heard it as Dwarves are mythical creatures and Dwarfs are people with dwarfism.

 

[theenglish]

Elfs is always incorrect as far as I'm aware. It was the plural "dwarves" of "dwarf" that Tolkien preferred to "dwarfs". I assume he did this to match "elves". I'm not entirely sure that he invented this version of the plural form but it has now slipped into common usage, apparently.

You are right on that. It was dwarves.

Also thanks to Reverend for the great insights.

 

[JD]

Io9 posted a nice little overview of the major events of the First Age for anyone who hasn't read The Silmarillion.