Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Cyrus, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The singing is...a bit painful...truth be told I think he should have just recited the poems.
    I actually just returned it after hearing his version of Galadriel's song, which is a pity because I liked his voice and cadence better for the prose parts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
  2. Absolute Zero

    Absolute Zero Admiral Admiral

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    They really should have done a full cast version instead similar to the ones for Dune, His Dark Materials, and the Foundation Trilogy. I doubt they could have afforded the cast of Jackson's movies but I'm sure there is plenty of voice talent about. The BBC radio serial adaptation from the 80s is good as well.
     
  3. EmoBorg

    EmoBorg Commodore Commodore

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    I am just curious about the elf leading the orcs ? Who is he ? I know that Orcs are descended from Elves. Is he one of the original elves that got turned to the darkness by Morgoth but he kept his appearance. Are there more dark elves like him who have kept their appearance?

    It would be nice to see more dark elves in this series. I am bored with the elves being so goody two shoes in the tolkienverse.
     
  4. Jeds Got Gelt

    Jeds Got Gelt Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One theory posits that the elf leading the orcs, Adar, is one of the first elves captured by Morgoth and the literal father (or the last surviving one) of the race of orcs.
    Although FYI, Tolkien has wavered on the "orcs come from elves" bit.
    Another theory suggests that Adar could be Maeglin from the Silmarillion, the son of the Dark Elf Eol, he was thrown off the towers of Gondolin and implied that he died in the fall, in this version he would have been badly injured but survived, and went back to serve Sauron.
    My personal theory is that he's just a First Age elf who got corrupted by Morgoth, then went ahead to serve Sauron. Possibly wants to usurp Sauron.
     
  5. EmoBorg

    EmoBorg Commodore Commodore

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    That might explain why he got angry and mishandled the villager at the mention of Sauron in the last episode.
     
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  6. BK613

    BK613 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Anyone suggest the idea that Nori's little band eventually ending up settled near the Gladden Fields?
     
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  7. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Commodore Commodore

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    Well, there is the unofficial Lord of the Rings Soundscape by Phil Dragash. It's unabriged, and he does all the voices and puts in the appropriate sound effects and Movie Score. His impressions are quite convincing. It's on Archive.org. As for legalities, I think the idea is that if you own the Movies and the Books and the Soundtrack album you are covered with what "rights" you need to listen to it.
     
  8. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah later on he decided that it wouldn't be possible to corrupt a large enough number of Elves so thoroughly that they'd become Orcs (since they never had a sin fall). Plus there are other problems with the idea of Orc being corrupted Elves, such as their ability to multiply at a very fast rate, including during the Third Age, something that wouldn't really work if they were Elves.
    He later decided that they were humans who fell into extreme corruption. It's even hinted at in the Lord of the Rings, with the Druedain (Ghan-buri-Ghan's people) being described as having an "Orc-like laughter" and having a mysterious, ancient feud with the Orcs that hints at a dark, shared past.

    But he never found an explanation for Orcs appearing before humans awoke. He had several possible explanations such as them being corrupted Maiar, them being animals bred into the shape of people and taught to repeat language like a parrot, them being automatons that Morgoth infused with his own essence into a semblance of life (the same way Aule unwittingly created the first Dwarves were before Eru granted them souls) or that in old Elvish "Orch/Yrch" simply was a word for everything that scared them on their journey westwards from sounds to phantoms to corrupted animals and such, and later scribes simply got confused.

    But since Tolkien never completely settled on one of those explanations, Christopher Tolkien chose the discarded "they're Elves" version for the Silmarillion.
    And since that's the version the movies went with, the show is probably going to use it as well.
     
  9. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

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    I dunno about that, I wouldn't trust Gil-galad as far as I could throw him!
     
  10. Jeds Got Gelt

    Jeds Got Gelt Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I rather suspect they will all be dead by the end of the show
    Orcs could have come initially from elves and with Morgoths dark magic also bred with humans. TBH no reason it can't be one of those "mysteries" that's never fully explored. As far as the show goes, make it a compelling story and I'm all in. Absolutely loving it so far.
     
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  11. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Have you even heard of Feanor? ;)

    But that would again lead to the origin that Tolkien wanted to remove (that they came from Elves)

    And yeah, I guess can be a mystery. The origin of Trolls never was pegged down as far as I know (all is said that they might be a "mockery" of Ents, as Orcs might be a "mockery" of Elves)
    And Dragons are similarly problematic, since both Smaug and Ancalagon clearly are shown to have an intellect and Tolkien became very adamant later that Morgoth can't create creatures with a true intellect.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2022
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  12. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I know it’s small world syndrome, but I wouldn’t mind if Nori is hinted at being a direct ancestor of the Gamgee family. I get a lot of Samwise vibes from her.
     
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  13. BK613

    BK613 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nori and her friend reminded me of Deagol and Smeagol away from home fishing when they find the Ring. And how Gandalf described Smeagol as being very inquisitive—which the Ring corrupts into finding out the secrets of his kinfolk, which leads to his banishment.
     
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  14. Jeds Got Gelt

    Jeds Got Gelt Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He was a goody two shoes until he got greedy :lol:


    I thought dragons were lesser maiar, like mini balrogs? They could also be animals created by Eru and modified by Morgoth, presumably same for trolls.
    Take some large ape, apply a few hundred years of magic and torture, and viola!! :D
     
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  15. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He always was kinda salty and ill-tempered and he did end up starting the first Kinslaying.
    But in relation to them being goody-two-shoes in general, I guess that's what you end up with if you have a people that never committed original sin and so exist on a whole other level. Remember Tolkien was a devout Catholic, so he did belief in the Christian idea of Original Sin being responsible for a lot of mankind's evil and suffering. And even within Middle Earth mankind's Original Sin of choosing Morgoth over Eru early in their history is responsible for much of their evil, suffering and even for their short lifespans and fear of death. Which also made them the prime candidates to give birth to the Orcs.

    Though it's clear that Elves still can be tempted and can choose to do evil; Feanor, his sons, Eol and Maeglin and well, even Galadriel was sorely tempted to take the Ring and become Middle Earth's new evil queen, and by her own admission she has spent centuries ruminating about the things she'd do with the One Ring at her disposal.

    The maiar theory is the most popular because it's the only one that at least kinda works with which Tolkien retro-fitted into Middle Earth at around the time he wrote the Lord of the Rings (that evil cannot create beings with souls, only corrupt them).
    Maybe regular dragons are just what Morgoth did to Middle Earth's dinosaurs and the speaking ones are inhabited either by lower Maiar or by other corrupted spirits.
    And well, while I'm on board with the trolls being bred from some sort of ape, it doesn't explain why *they* have human-like intellect, can speak or turn into stone when exposed to sunlight ;)
     
  16. Jeds Got Gelt

    Jeds Got Gelt Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Men weren't mortal because they worshipped Morgoth, they were born mortal.
    Elves were the First Ones, and the ones that survived the original trip to Valinor weren't perfect by any means. I'm Jewish so "original sin" doesn't mean much to me theologically, nor does it explain to me how some elves were goody two shoes and some were evil assholes.
     
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  17. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, I can try to explain it using the story of Adam and Eve (which is, after all, original from the tanach)
    Adam and Eve are seduced by the snake (whether you believe the Christian retcon that it's Satan, or not, is pretty irrelevant for that) and are punished with all that stuff about painful childbirth, and toiling for the fruits of their labour and well, being doomed to die.
    In Catholicism this act is referred to as Original Sin. The first time someone sinned, and it's believed to be the root of all evil. It believes that even babies are already born with this sin because of what Adam and Eve did.

    In Middle Earth, the original humans didn't bite in an apple, but instead they were seduced by Morgoth into worshipping him instead of Eru; https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tale_of_Adanel
    So Eru punished them with shorter lifespans, feebleness in old age, susceptibility to sickness and greater susceptibility to evil and greed and violence and all that stuff, and even the world itself turned against them, which is why they can't do things the elves do, such as walking on freshly fallen snow without sinking. They also lost their ability to desert their bodies (i.e. die) at will, which is also something the elves can do, because the fear of death (which in Tolkien is the root of all the evil men do) forces them to cling to life no matter how degraded it is.
    And because every single one of the original humans was seduced into worshipping Morgoth, all of their descendants, all of humanity is fallen under this doom.
    The original humans were, apparently, meant to be more like the Numenorans, living very long lives and then deciding to voluntarily join Eru outside of the physical universe before they decline.
    The idea seems to be that the Numenorans for their role in fighting against Morgoth in the War of Wrath, had some of their doom removed, but fell back under it when fear of death and greed for immortality got hold over them again.

    Originally this mortality was the great gift of humanity, because it meant their souls could leave the world and be with their creator. Elf souls on the other hand are trapped in Ea and either have to go to Mandos in case of death or become feral, bleed into nature and become susceptible to being used in necromancy.
    That's because the original Elves never ate the apple, never were seduced into worshipping Morgoth. So in the Biblical version the Elves are still "living in the Garden of Eden" without toil or sickness and being less susceptible to the temptations of evil as a people, and being able to leave their bodies in cases of great peril (hence why the whole thing with the Orcs didn't work anymore, Elves would voluntarily die and flee to Mandos before being debased like that or being forced to take part in procreation)
    So Elves have a natural inclination towards what Tolkien saw as moral behaviour because they are still in an unfallen state, but can individually choose to do evil, while humans are much more tempted, and have to choose to do good.

    The problems this concept created with the already established storylines of the Silmarillion is one of the reasons why Tolkien never managed to create a final, full version of it during his lifetime.
    (sorry for the novella, I hope it makes sense)
     
  18. Jeds Got Gelt

    Jeds Got Gelt Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ahh! Yes, of course I know the story of Adam & Eve etc...
    Yes, I'm in favor of the Original Sin version of the silmarilion being relegated to an unfinished tales legendarium.
    Having read the Silmarillion many times I couldn't figure out where you were going with the Original Sin stuff until now. I do recall him writing that he wanted the allusions to Catholicism to be more subtle.

    I don't believe the Fall of Man is included in the Silmarilion.
     
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  19. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Tolkien would talk about "the Fall" vs. the actual Catholic doctrine of Original Sin. There is a fall with Man, but not fully unpacked in the various writings.
     
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  20. FreezeC77

    FreezeC77 Commodore Commodore

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    Wow that ending for ep 6

    Literally the birth of Mordor.

    Finally seeing horses riding in a fighting charge again after the movies is great. The fighting may not have been quite as epic, but still very well done. I'm glad it turned out the 'orcs' in the first wave of attack on the town were actually the other townspeople (mainly) because they were unrealistically wiped out until it was revealed who they were lol.